Missouri Public vs Private "petition to amend"

[MOsportsStaff]

This is currently an item of discussion in Missouri.

Started in Norwood, MO. They are trying to get enough signatures by December 15 to add this to the 2018 spring ballot.

Would create 4 public classes for basketball, 2 private classes.

Click the link to read.

 

[Stltigers]

What would stop private schools from leaving MSHSAA? If public schools think recruiting is bad now, just wait until private schools start their own association with their own rules.

 

[you_dont_know_me]

wow. Interesting. I wonder if it will get any traction?

 

[midmoguy]

What would stop private schools from leaving MSHSAA? If public schools think recruiting is bad now, just wait until private schools start their own association with their own rules.

People only complain because of post season struggles. Nobody cares all that much about 1 regular season loss but when they get beat out by private schools in post season play (districts and beyond) people really start to care then. If they leave the association most people won't care. They will get to play for more post season games.

I do not know how it will effect MSHSAA budget, that could potentially be a draw back of them leaving.

 

[PCole]

Last time this got discussed, a few RINOs in Jefferson City basically threatened to shut down MSHSAA. My money says this one goes nowhere as well.

 

[jlar2015]

What would stop private schools from leaving MSHSAA? If public schools think recruiting is bad now, just wait until private schools start their own association with their own rules.

I have heard quite a few private school admin say they wish their enrollment was higher to provide better funding for the school. If there funding isn't strong, but they have the funds to leave MSHSAA and fund an entire organization for their own athletics and activities then something is off??? Other states do this already and their athletics seem to be ok and their state organization survives.

 

[mlbruem]

If it happens the public schools will be the big losers. You will never crown a liget champion.

 

[3Rfan]

If it happens the public schools will be the big losers. You will never crown a liget champion.

Or maybe some of the kids leaving for private schools will stay in their home school district and help them win a championship.

 

[JakeFrmStateFarm]

If it happens the public schools will be the big losers. You will never crown a liget champion.

If it would be better for private schools to split they would have been gone a long time ago

 

[you_dont_know_me]

I'm not sure a "legit" champion is being established by players being able to be recruited versus a public school (although, yes, it appears plenty of this happens at public schools too in transferring, etc). This is a much bigger issue for bigger schools, and it is enlightening and interesting to hear arguments against and for it.

 

[4th_Quarter_Pinerider]

I believe other states have a separation of public and private school state tournaments. Why is it a big deal if it happened in this state?
Private schools can still play public schools; the state playoffs are just separated.

 

[mohsbballfan]

This is a change that has been a long time coming. The only people I have ever heard say that the current system is fair and that private schools do not have an advantage are people that went to, have kids in, or work in a private school. The two classes that are impacted by far the most by private schools are Class 3 and 4. No one can honestly look at the final four teams on a yearly basis (both boys and girls) in Class 3 and 4 and not admit that there is a competitive advantage.

Class 1, 2, and 5 are not affected nearly as bad by private schools because there are so few in those classes and Class 5 schools are so large they are better suited to combat the few private schools in Class 5. Class 3 and 4 however, are greatly skewed towards private schools. I could go back further with this, but just take a look at the last four years in both boys and girls Class 3 and 4.

Class 3-4 Boys combined:
38 private schools out of 224 schools= 17% of teams are private
28 of 128 district champions were private= 21.9%
12 of 32 final four teams were private= 37.5%

Class 3-4 Girls combined:
41 private schools out of 225 schools= 18.2% of teams are private
38 of 128 district champions were private= 29.7%
13 of 32 final four teams were private= 40.6%

Those numbers, especially final four appearances, are significantly above what one would find with a level playing field.

 

[panther72]

Any idea on class structure? Under current guidelines I could see Class 1 going to a top school size of over 200. Now I think it goes 80-96-128-128-128, give or take a few, in number of schools. If you are a Class 1 basketball school, how could you support this?

 

[dontthumbit]

No easy answer but change is needed. For those that say there is no competitive advantage you live under a blanket. Schools who get voluntary busing also have an advantage . Problem is like stated above it doesn't affect class 1 schools when playoffs roll around.

 

[panther72]

But, the voting block of Class 1 is over 20% and this proposal throws them under a bus. The private schools represent about 10% That leaves a very slim margin to pass the petition if on the ballot - over 90% of the remaining 70%. Remember also the top of public Class 2 and public Class 3 or 4 also get moved up and may not be happy with the outcome.
If somebody with a brain does not come up with a way to protect the current Class 1 schools this is a waste of time, energy and effort. There is a problem I agree but this will never pass.

 

[you_dont_know_me]

Interesting point on the small schools. It would be a problem if class 1 caught everyone up to 200 enrollment. Would change things drastically.

 

[you_dont_know_me]

Maybe increasing the multiplier would get more privates up in class 5? 1.5?

 

[fungoking]

Having seen so many public school players switch schools for athletic reasons its hard for me to get too worked up over what private schools do. Of course privates have an advantage, but so do public suburban schools under bussing plans, districts with multiple high schools, schools close enough bigger cities where players can move a couple of miles to get into the district with their travel ball teammates without their parents having to change jobs.

 

[wahoolives]

Not sure going to 4 classes helps anything for the smaller schools, if you are truly worried about splitting public/private stay at 5 classes with just public, leave 128 schools in classes 1-3 64 biggest in class 5 and the rest (around 110 in my guesstimation) in class 4. have 8 districts with 8 teams each in class 5. 16 districts in class 1-4 have a sectional or sub-state or whatever you want to call it game in class 1-4 and take the top 8 in each class to the state tournament and do away with 3rd place games.
Perhaps if public and private schools were split some of the smaller private schools around the state that currently are not MSHSAA members would be interested in joining and playing in the smaller class of privates if the privates were split into 2 classes.
I don't think it will ever happen or that it necessarily needs to but that would make more sense than 140 schools in each class because the disparity in size of schools in class 1 and class 4 with 4 classes would make it very difficult for the smaller schools in class 1 and 4 to be competitive.

 

[HARDWORK3211]

I'm trying to figure out why Norwood of all places is the ones starting the petition in basketball? Unless I'm wrong, which is very possible, but class 1-2 boys and really class 1-3 girls haven't had many state champions that were private schools in the last decade. I know class 3 boys has a bunch of powerhouse private schools. Norwood plays in the Summit conference and hasn't been affected and the teams even in their class or conference haven't been affected by private school powerhouses. Is it a push for this so he can get some name recognition and get to a bigger public school or a push for other sports outside of basketball? Baseball maybe? I don't believe Summit teams have football or soccer, which soccer I think is much more private school dominated in the smaller classes. I'm also curious what the breakdowns would end up being, but I feel like this would make the road to a title much harder for class 1-2 public schools, unless you were part of the lucky few that get to drop down a class.

 

[rebelman54]

Just my opinion, it's not just about winning state championships, but rather a skewed percentage of privates in the "district champions and beyond" category. Just looking back over the last 5 years in girl's class 3, they have had 50%, 50%, 25%, 25%, and 50% of the final four be private schools or "magnet - charter" schools. The year our girls made their run, they played a private school in the district championship, sectional, quarterfinal, and state championship game. When private schools make up a small percentage of the school population, but are disproportionately(to a large extent) represented in the state playoffs, this is what gets class 2 and class 3 schools upset.

 

[HARDWORK3211]

I honestly didn't take the time looking back through all the class 3 districts. I couldn't really think of many privates in the class 2's at all that have made noise. There's Sacred Heart on the boys side, but I'm blanking after that in class 2. Class 1 doesn't have any that I can think of either. Will it make it a lot better for the school in class 3's when they get combined with public class 4's though? Does anyone know the actual number of private schools that are part of mshsaa for boys and girls?

 

[panther72]

I have 67 private schools and 11 charter. Maybe a couple of new ones that popped up this year that I have not got.
If the petition passed Norwood would go from being a small class 2 to Class 1.

 

[rebelman54]

I honestly didn't take the time looking back through all the class 3 districts. I couldn't really think of many privates in the class 2's at all that have made noise. There's Sacred Heart on the boys side, but I'm blanking after that in class 2. Class 1 doesn't have any that I can think of either. Will it make it a lot better for the school in class 3's when they get combined with public class 4's though? Does anyone know the actual number of private schools that are part of mshsaa for boys and girls?

I agree with you to a certain extent, you will still have good public school teams, for the most part, you will be playing against schools that have the same rules as you. Not all class 3's will be combined with class 4, you'll have some that move up and you might have some that move down into class 2, I haven't looked at the numbers to see where people would fall.

 

[bird_4_3]

Crain wrote this, but this is not Norwood wanting this. This proposal is coming straight from Hartville after there next "great" group got monkey stomped by Greenwood. I wish this was written with the best intentions, but it was not. This was written because Greenwood is about to get really good, I mean really good. I think it is Dahantay Jones, the ex NBA guy who has a son that is super good.

 

[HARDWORK3211]

It all starts to make more sense now.

For all the transferring in and out of Hartville, I wonder when the last time Greenwood had a HS transfer in from another school that was a contributor for the school they left or would have been?

 

[4th_Quarter_Pinerider]

I really don't care who started it or what their motivation was.
I think it's something that needs to be brought to the ballot to vote on.
If the public schools feel that this would be fair, then they hold majority and should pass this easily. If it does not pass, then you know that there was a split feeling about the proposal. That would make the most sense of the whole thing.

If the petition is successful to be put on the ballot, then the MSHSAA powers that be need to have a proposal for how the set up would be and a model of the classification breakdowns as well. That would lead to the most logical and most informed vote.

 

[HARDWORK3211]

I'm really curious what the breakdowns of the classes both public and private would be.

 

[panther72]

There is a reason why how the classes would be restructured is not included in the petition. If it was then it is not just a By-Law change that only requires a simple majority to pass but becomes a Constitution change which requires 2/3.

Do the math. There are around 560 basketball playing schools give or take a few. Take away the 80, give or take a few of non-public/charter schools and the 128 Class 1 schools which all could be hurt by this petition, and you have already lost 208 that could vote against it. Of the remaining 352 schools, you would need 281 to vote yes. Take out the 80 current Class 5 schools who are not affected and its gets tighter. Take out the schools at the top of the current Class 2 and the top of Class 4 that this petition would make a tougher competitive situation. I do not see this having a chance to ever pass even if it gets to the ballot.
Let's face it, the data will show that the 1.35 multiplier has done nothing overall to solve what it was supposed to do. It just shifted the problem to somebody else.

 

[panther72]

I'm really curious what the breakdowns of the classes both public and private would be.

Educated guess for the public schools. If it goes top 80 in Class 4, next 96 in Class 3, 128 in Class 2 then the cutoffs are at 1178, 430 and 195. If it went to a more logical 96-128-128, then the cutoffs are 961, 307 and 160. Either way, the new class 3 gets ugly if you are looking at it from the bottom.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

If you've got roughly 480 public schools...4 classes of approx 120 per class. Seems easy enough.

If MSHSAA members vote to keep the privates (but play separate championships), you could have a small and large. Approx 40 in each class.

 

[panther72]

At 120 per class, Class 4 would go down to 756, Class 3 to 273 and Class 2 to 132.

 

[mowesten]

At 120 per class, Class 4 would go down to 756, Class 3 to 273 and Class 2 to 132.

If you've got roughly 480 public schools...4 classes of approx 120 per class. Seems easy enough.

If MSHSAA members vote to keep the privates (but play separate championships), you could have a small and large. Approx 40 in each class.

Good luck with that. No way you have schools with enrollments of 750-800 in the same class as Webster Groves, Lee’s Summit West and Rock Bridge without crying and whining about fairness. Oh the outrage and the horror and the injustice of it all. I can hear it now.

The easiest path to fairness is the elimination of the postseason.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Good luck with that. No way you have schools with enrollments of 750-800 in the same class as Webster Groves, Lee’s Summit West and Rock Bridge without crying and whining about fairness. Oh the outrage and the horror and the injustice of it all. I can hear it now.

The easiest path to fairness is the elimination of the postseason.

Lol. No kidding. Then again, the seven games (per your proposal) might actually be good watchable match-ups too.

 

[dontthumbit]

Lol. No kidding. Then again, the seven games (per your proposal) might actually be good watchable match-ups too.

Class 4 cutoff at 1000 kids is pretty reasonable. Each class shouldn't have to have equal numbers. Shrink up the class 1 number and the highest class.4 . Private into 2 classes large and small. Public and private can play regular season games and maybe find a way to play public vs private state champs . May have to shorten season by a week. Any suburban school that gets voluntary transfers is automatically class 4.
Now how will football schools ruin this thought process? I like idea of 8 schools to state and maybe play at 2-3 locations for hoops. mshsaa always looking to increase revenues why wouldn't they entertain this idea? Lack of manpower?

 

[HARDWORK3211]

I really like the 8 teams at state idea, but logistically is that possible for teams that are traveling?

 

[Majost]

Since recruiting is already done in public and private, why dont you just get rid of the recruiting rule and leave all things equal. Even with the privates gone, you will still get public schools recruiting.

 

[Majost]

Good luck with that. No way you have schools with enrollments of 750-800 in the same class as Webster Groves, Lee’s Summit West and Rock Bridge without crying and whining about fairness. Oh the outrage and the horror and the injustice of it all. I can hear it now.

The easiest path to fairness is the elimination of the postseason.

Well if you think that is bad. look at their idea on the privates side. They have like Borgia which has 500 or so kids in the same class the biggest private schools. Why isnt whats good for the goose good for the gander as well.

 

[justwonderingNkc]

I like it the way it is, but I wouldn't have any privates in Class1 or 2. Move all those schools up to Class3 or 4. I know this isn't the answer either but I think Valle getting kids from all over the SEMO area isn't right. You have that school competing against Class1 schools that have 50-100 kids.

Maybe MSHSAA should pass a penalty if a player lives outside the city limits then the school gets moved up a class. This really doesn't effect me in BBall because Valle usually isn't a powerhouse in BBall. When it comes to football or volleyball no private should be allowed to compete in Class 1 or 2. Move those schools up. Not right having Valle or Pius play against schools with 60 kids when Valle and Pius can pull kids from over 60 miles away. Maybe limit the area kids can be pulled from. Maybe less than 30 miles from the school. IDK!

In BBall I love when the privates get beat by public schools. It also makes for very exciting crowds when these schools battle. Nothing better in BBall sectionals than watching Borgia battle the publics. I also wouldn't lump in private schools with charter schools.

I really don't have a good answer for this. I love the format the way it is. The only thing I would do different is not have any privates in class1 or 2.

 

[Majost]

I like it the way it is, but I wouldn't have any privates in Class1 or 2. Move all those schools up to Class3 or 4. I know this isn't the answer either but I think Valle getting kids from all over the SEMO area isn't right. You have that school competing against Class1 schools that have 50-100 kids.

Maybe MSHSAA should pass a penalty if a player lives outside the city limits then the school gets moved up a class. This really doesn't effect me in BBall because Valle usually isn't a powerhouse in BBall. When it comes to football or volleyball no private should be allowed to compete in Class 1 or 2. Move those schools up. Not right having Valle or Pius play against schools with 60 kids when Valle and Pius can pull kids from over 60 miles away. Maybe limit the area kids can be pulled from. Maybe less than 30 miles from the school. IDK!

In BBall I love when the privates get beat by public schools. It also makes for very exciting crowds when these schools battle. Nothing better in BBall sectionals than watching Borgia battle the publics. I also wouldn't lump in private schools with charter schools.

I really don't have a good answer for this. I love the format the way it is. The only thing I would do different is not have any privates in class1 or 2.

LOL Outside the city limits? Hell, I know public High Schools that are in 4 different counties. Its amazing no one talks about all the private schools that aren't worth a lick in sports. Again, just let everyone recruit