Do you have a coat and tie to get into his country club to do so?
Public/Private debate
- Thread starter Veer2Eternity
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I guess I didn't pay much attention. Didn't realize CR was ranked. That explains a lot. Thanks!!
Yeah, that district is one of the toughest in the state, no matter if you agree on how the teams were assembled or not.
The rules governing transfers apply to EVERY school. Not just private ones. When a family changes addresses, they're allowed to change schools. They HAVE to change schools if they move out of the district. A kid isn't required to enroll in a public school when that happens.
I know you don't like or don't believe or won't accept that in communities that aren't like the one YOU live in, there are personal concerns that mean changing schools for a kid. You don't hear about it or know it when it happens to a kid that doesn't play a sport and have a number or their name on their back, but it happens.
I don't like that it's RIDICULOUSLY easy for public schools to overlook (intentionally or otherwise) when kids from out of the district enroll in their schools. Maybe it doesn't happen where you live, but in STL it happens A LOT. If a family has paperwork that supports their eligibility and the school and MSHSAA clear it, then I move on.
I don't complain because I don't like it, know enough about a kid to know why it happens, or rant and crap on schools I don't know because I can't accept something that really doesn't affect me.
Lamar IS the King ... until they aren't anymore. Why would you spend your time discussing anything other than Lamar's next win? Seriously.
Guess spending most of my time in Central and Southwest Missouri, private schools don't mean much to me.
They're winning, their kids and families are winning and they're living their dreams. I don't care whether you like it anymore than they care if you do. You're the one that is wishing for something to be other than what it is. I'm as persistent as you are. Keep trolling and I'll keep smacking you.
Doesn't have the ability. His attempts to antagonize have had an adverse effect on him I think.
I get that you don't like the rules. If you don't like them, then your issue is with MSHSAA and the rules. Feel your feelings. Rant online if you want to ... that's what I'M doing, after all. Until the rules change, they are what they are and nothing either of us says matters beyond that.
Lamar is a MACHINE. Every team in Missouri WISHES they had what you have and if they don't they shouldn't be playing football. Until you lose, you wear the crown. You SHOULD enjoy the ride. You've earned it.
8 pages and counting, the server is filling up. Can we all agree to just respect each other's opinions and get back to X's and O's and other good topics? Public and private together is what it is, so let's live with that just as much as we've all realized Trinty is for real!
Now, a simple post with "thanks for the great debate" from each of you will signify that you've made your best points and you are ready to shake hands, walk off the field and start preparing for the next game.
Now, a simple post with "thanks for the great debate" from each of you will signify that you've made your best points and you are ready to shake hands, walk off the field and start preparing for the next game.
Thanks for the great debate.....it's helped entertain me during a rather boring time at work!
Thanks for the great debate. Good luck with the rest of your seasons and the off-season.
Well I guess it makes breaking rules fine. As long as they are winning and their family is living the dream....
Again I’m a WC guy. It doesn’t have any bearing on my team. I just think it is sleazy and if your team does it your team gets an * in my book. Feel free to ignore my opinion if it suits you.
My problem with it is, the way transfers are able to be approved on a question of safety. Are only male D-1 recruit candidates fearful of their safety. Do these brave students leave their sisters and younger siblings (possibly not so athletic) behind on these transfers? It just appears the safety check box is a wide gate to admittance, that others should not be allowed to question !
Those are very good questions. A lot of people feel pretty comfortable assuming the answers without really knowing for sure. The bigger question is "How do you (or anyone else outside of MSHSAA's Appeals Committee) know what the reason for immediate eligibility was?" Its the fact that you don't know that drives people's suspicions. Unfortunately, other people's family issues and the details behind their kids' personal and scholastic records aren't everyone's business.
There are a bunch of anonymous people saying they heard this and that, and none of it is fact. You can imagine whatever scenario you want to. You ALSO assume (because somebody said so online) that if a safety issue IS the reason immediate eligibility is granted, that it's done so without any documentation or paper trail to verify it.
If you really want to understand the process, instead of just gossip online, you really should take the time to call MSHSAA. Ask them to explain the process. Specifically, exceptions for transfer eligibility and how they are granted. Like I did.
What I assume is they seem to get a lot of publicity from all of the D-1 recruit candidates they seem to magically attract for safety reasons ! I doubt documentation and a paper trail of it is unavailable to me, even if I ask .
You "assume". They "seem". Here's what I know. There are 10 exceptions that MSHSAA lists as reasons they will consider a transfer for immediate eligibility. Eligibility has been granted for reasons OTHER than those 10 listed ones, as well. How do I know this? Because I called MSHSAA and I asked Harvey Richards about it. It's a lot more fun for you to gossip online. I get that. If, however, you ever really do want to know more about the situation ... you can contact him yourself.
"You ALSO assume (because somebody said so online) that if a safety issue IS the reason immediate eligibility is granted, that it's done so without any documentation or paper trail to verify it."
You mean like when you want a kid or a family wants to transfer for athletic reasons but doesn't want to sit out a year, so they have the athlete visit the guidance counselor to express vague concerns so there's documentation about the meeting when said documentation is needed to get the transfer ineligibility waived? At least that's what I've been told is going on from admin and people at MSHSAA.
You mean like when you want a kid or a family wants to transfer for athletic reasons but doesn't want to sit out a year, so they have the athlete visit the guidance counselor to express vague concerns so there's documentation about the meeting when said documentation is needed to get the transfer ineligibility waived? At least that's what I've been told is going on from admin and people at MSHSAA.
That's a good example. In that situation you just described, there would need to be additional supporting documentation. Police reports. Signed affidavits. A paper trail that details, documents and verifies a pattern of activity around a safety issue that includes extraordinary involvement at the school and police level. I don't know who your mystery source is, but I know that "vague concerns" expressed to a guidance counselor isn't enough to be granted an exception.
You can view the list of qualifiers for yourself in MSHSAA's rules. If you really want to know more, call Harvey Richards yourself and ask him "what can qualify a student for an exception other than the 10 reasons listed." Knowledge is your friend. Embrace it.
Can I assume it seems people have little faith MSHSAA will change anything concerning this issue, even if I were to make the sacred phone call ? I assume it seems the best option for the effected opposing conference teams is to drop these games from their schedule? What are your thoughts on that for a solution ? No sarcasm here, it just seems like a answer to a problem that isn't going away ! What if teams have trouble getting the required number of games, what then ?
Honestly, that would probably benefit Lutheran North and Trinity. They would just schedule Class 4-6 nonconference games which would give them bonus points in district seeding and they would play better opposition.
I believe one conference Class 4 team forfeited this year but I bet there are better teams who would love to play these two. Remember there is no point deduction for playing down.
Look. You can believe what you want to. What you or I feel or assume or think doesn't matter because we aren't MSHSAA and we don't make or enforce the rules. If you don't trust that MSHSAA is doing their job, then there's nothing even THEY can say that will change your mind. Call. Don't call. It won't change that kids transfer, some get cleared to play immediately, some don't and neither you or I will ever know the details about why. So when it happens, you can assume MSHSAA did their job or you can assume that a conspiracy took place and imagine reasons why.
Some schools will choose not to schedule them. It happens all the time and teams are free to (within limits) pick who they play. Here's the problem that arises if schools collude to isolate these two schools based upon MSHSAA's enforcement of their own rules. Trinity and Lutheran North didn't do anything wrong.
Sure, it confuses you, you don't like it or understand why it happened ... but that doesn't make it wrong or cheating or illegal or unethical. MSHSAA knows what is happening and they investigated it and cleared it. The only teams that ducked playing them would likely have lost anyway and the only real issue is that they waited until the week before to do it. That and the fact that they stated it was injuries, not their opposition to playing them because they didn't trust MSHSAA's enforcement of their own rules, for why they forfeited.
Public schools accuse one another of using out of District kids to play sports all the time. They cry and whine, but no one goes as far as refusing to schedule teams because of it. If teams DO refuse to play them, then we'll see what happens next. In the meantime, Trinity is scheduling Class 6 SLUH, Class 5 Chaminade and schools from Ohio and GA next season. They don't appear to be worried about a handful of 2 and 3 win teams wanting to play them.
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Class 4 Priory (1-9) voided the second game of their 2 year commitment with Trinity in Week 1 and Class 4 Clayton (1-9) did the same vs Lutheran North before the season, then played one another instead. Lutheran North went to Evansville, IN and beat the #1 Class 2A team instead (Mater Dei) while Trinity took a bye. Class 4 St. Charles (2-8) forfeited to Trinity a few weeks ago. Priory forfeited their game against Lutheran North.
Priory and Lutheran North have decided that they won't play one another over the next 2 years, at least. Since they're in the same conference, it means Priory won't be eligible for conference awards for their players or as a team. Which isn't a big deal since they haven't won a conference game in football since 2014 and are likely folding their football team in a year or two anyway.
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Crusader are Trinity and Lutheran North rivals?? I know there is a lot of hype going into this next game, as there should be!! Will there be any links to be able to watch it??
Trinity and Lutheran North have played one another in the regular season and as District opponents since the early 2000s. Trinity has only beaten Lutheran North 2 or 3 times in a 15 year span, which includes last year's 7 point win. Trinity has only won one District Title (last year). They're two highly ranked teams that are in the same District. Trinity would say they're rivals because they beat North last year for the first time in a decade and went to State. North has been dominant in their District and over Trinity in particular, and would say they aren't rivals because Trinity hasn't been competitive with them until last year.
I'm hoping the game will stream live on Prepcasts.com. Lutheran North has had 3 games covered there this year and you can view them on-demand for free on that site.
Thanks for the info!! I enjoy hearing the backstory between teams. I had forgotten we had played Lutheran North in 2013 but it actually popped up in my memories today on Facebook. Should be a great game!! Good Luck to you guys!! I always liked the saying 'The games you remember are played in November' This is when it starts getting fun!!
So impressive...... It's amazing that 2 class 2 teams have so many D1 prospects. Just a shame you are both in the same district! But hey, it's like someone said on another thread, the losing team can always just suit up the following Monday and play for the winning coach. We all know MSHSAA obviously won't care!!
Boy but we know you sure do dont we
I took the time to call them, that is just who I am. And in my opinion if MSHSAA was a corporation the people running it could successfully run it into the ground..... One point on here that was made and it is a good one, is that MSHSAA is not the NCAA and that is clear. The only way I think this can be fixed because of the obvious issues that plague MSHSAA as it is currently run and set up, is to actually separate Public and Private schools, I did not feel this way a few weeks ago. But it is clear how things are currently setup Private schools in large communities can have a large advantage when competing in athletics.
Crusader, I did not believe in separation before this debate, I just wanted to make sure MSHSAA could handle both private and public schools equally. But after this thread and you pointing out MSHSAA obvious favoritism towards private institutions and then a brief conversation with somebody at MSHSAA I would encourage all AD's to vote to separate the championships until they or we can figure how to governor both equally. It is clear there is disadvantage that needs to be fixed.
I'm glad you called. What was it that MSHSAA said to you this morning that convinced you that the split was necessary? I think the last time splitting was out to a vote by MSHSAA was 2007, and it lost by a landslide. I wonder what the details of the debate among ADs was then vs now? I personally don't think a split would catastrophic for either public OR private schools, but I seriously don't see it happening. For a number of reasons ... the biggest being the overwhelming majority of ADs just don't agree with the notion that private schools are heavily favored over public schools. I wish MSHSAA meetings and minutes were open to the public. It'd answer a lot of questions.
The biggest reason they won't split is because you'd go from regulating what private schools can do under the same rules as the public schools (technically), versus splitting up and watch as the private schools are unregulated to what they can do. It has very little to do with whether public schools think it's fair or not now, it is about being careful what you wish for...if you don't like losing athletes now, what do you think is going to happen if there are no rules?
They can barely afford to recruit what they do now. It'd end up like texas where the best teams are all public.
I've got a serious question about "private schools ability to enroll kids from outside of their area". I think that MSHSAA requires students at private schools to reside within a specific number of miles from that school. Does anyone know what that distance is?
Additionally, why would a parent choose a private school over a public one (even if they DIDN'T have to pay tuition for it) if the public school their kid would attend was superior and had no additional financial cost?
It is 30 miles, which if you are in central KC (like Rockhurst) that pretty much covers all 2 million people in the KC metro, so it overlaps with dozens and dozens of high school districts.
Basically they remind me alot of dealing with Hipaa laws when asking about medical records, they don't say a lot like you said they protect the kids and families. Which in itself is not bad, but when trying to promote openness and a sense of fairness between schools who are competing it does not give you that warm fuzzy feeling, would you not agree?
I personal always wanted to play against the best, I always wanted to know if I won something that I beat best the class had to offer. However it is clear private schools in large metro areas have a huge advantage when it comes to talent pools, and they have figured out as you have pointed out how to get the most out of the rules as written. While I don't have a dog in the fight currently, I don't believe it is fair that a class 2 rural school should have to compete against a class 2 metro private school who can bring in talent from say around 100,000 people versus a town like Lamar who has say 2,000, you would have to admit it is not fair.
But you are right a number of AD's this never affects their school so they don't care, most schools never get out of districts the only ones seeing the affects are well large metro areas like St Louis & KC who compete weekly against these schools or those who go on to face these school consistently in playoff runs. But I do think AD's opinions are changing. Like somebody else said in years past public private debates came up all the time, but we are starting to see private schools going to greater links to find that edge in athletics and it is catching the attention around the state of fans who voice their concerns to school boards, who then voice their concerns to the school's administration.
In the last few years Monett faced JB twice who had a kid playing who was not even from the state of Missouri, still have not figured that one out? Last year our soccer team was the only public school in the final four, we finished runner up. This year our softball team who are state champs was just one of two public schools in the final four. We have seen it a lot recently and not just in football. Private schools have a large advantage in all sports.
How does that work for out of state kids who go to school at Private schools and play on the sport teams?
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