Public/Private debate

[crusader_2]

Basically they remind me alot of dealing with Hipaa laws when asking about medical records, they don't say a lot like you said they protect the kids and families. Which in itself is not bad, but when trying to promote openness and a sense of fairness between schools who are competing it does not give you that warm fuzzy feeling, would you not agree?

I personal always wanted to play against the best, I always wanted to know if I won something that I beat best the class had to offer. However it is clear private schools in large metro areas have a huge advantage when it comes to talent pools, and they have figured out as you have pointed out how to get the most out of the rules as written. While I don't have a dog in the fight currently, I don't believe it is fair that a class 2 rural school should have to compete against a class 2 metro private school who can bring in talent from say around 100,000 people versus a town like Lamar who has say 2,000, you would have to admit it is not fair.

But you are right a number of AD's this never affects their school so they don't care, most schools never get out of districts the only ones seeing the affects are well large metro areas like St Louis & KC who compete weekly against these schools or those who go on to face these school consistently in playoff runs. But I do think AD's opinions are changing. Like somebody else said in years past public private debates came up all the time, but we are starting to see private schools going to greater links to find that edge in athletics and it is catching the attention around the state of fans who voice their concerns to school boards, who then voice their concerns to the school's administration.

In the last few years Monett faced JB twice who had a kid playing who was not even from the state of Missouri, still have not figured that one out? Last year our soccer team was the only public school in the final four, we finished runner up. This year our softball team who are state champs was just one of two public schools in the final four. We have seen it a lot recently and not just in football. Private schools have a large advantage in all sports.

That's interesting. So (other than splitting into public and private for post-season play), what changes to the system would you propose to make it "more fair" in your eyes?

As far as transparency, what is it that you think should be "public knowledge"?

The common denominator in all of this is the assumption, by people unconnected to MSHSAA in the evaluation process, that the organization's process is corrupt (in terms of transfers), that the system really IS imbalanced in favor of private schools and that the ADs involved in voting on MSHSAA issues agree with the assumptions based upon the privileged info they have access to that you and I, don't.

 

[Duck_walk]

That's interesting. So (other than splitting into public and private for post-season play), what changes to the system would you propose to make it "more fair" in your eyes?

As far as transparency, what is it that you think should be "public knowledge"?

The common denominator in all of this is the assumption, by people unconnected to MSHSAA in the evaluation process, that the organization's process is corrupt (in terms of transfers), that the system really IS imbalanced in favor of private schools and that the ADs involved in voting on MSHSAA issues agree with the assumptions based upon the privileged info they have access to that you and I, don't.

I have said this before. School administrators have to pass bond issues and work well with board members. Private school parents vote on or against bond issues and board members. This is a consideration schools make when choosing whether or not to push to separate public/private sports. You dont want to alienate a significant bloc of voters in your district.

 

[bullitpdq68]

That's interesting. So (other than splitting into public and private for post-season play), what changes to the system would you propose to make it "more fair" in your eyes?

As far as transparency, what is it that you think should be "public knowledge"?

The common denominator in all of this is the assumption, by people unconnected to MSHSAA in the evaluation process, that the organization's process is corrupt (in terms of transfers), that the system really IS imbalanced in favor of private schools and that the ADs involved in voting on MSHSAA issues agree with the assumptions based upon the privileged info they have access to that you and I, don't.

I don't know what you could do at this point to be honest because I am sure over time school would figure out how to over come whatever rules would be put in place. That is why I think we need to do separate at this point. Private schools have merit, some are very good places of learning, and keep public schools trying harder. While others want athletic achievements and the hardware, so how you balance that I don't know. you don't want to severely punish all private schools because some are truly learning institutions who put athletics second. And if you did severely handicap all of them then you would encourage even more rule bending just so some could compete it would be a never ending cycle at this point.

Again I said just like Hipaa laws they probable they have good reason to be in there but again it does not promote the feeling of openness and fairness that we all desire even you desire that because you want to prove all is on the up and up. But you cannot be open on all issues.

It is not an assumption it is a fact. A class 2 rural school is at a huge disadvantage to a Class 2 Private school located in St Louis or any other large metro area where they can pick and chose between possible over 2,000 kids in a 30 mile radius. That is a fact. So how can you classify them as class 2 or 3 or a small school?

 

[crusader_2]

I don't know what you could do at this point to be honest because I am sure over time school would figure out how to over come whatever rules would be put in place. That is why I think we need to do separate at this point. Private schools have merit, some are very good places of learning, and keep public schools trying harder. While others want athletic achievements and the hardware, so how you balance that I don't know. you don't want to severely punish all private schools because some are truly learning institutions who put athletics second. And if you did severely handicap all of them then you would encourage even more rule bending just so some could compete it would be a never ending cycle at this point.

Again I said just like Hipaa laws they probable they have good reason to be in there but again it does not promote the feeling of openness and fairness that we all desire even you desire that because you want to prove all is on the up and up. But you cannot be open on all issues.

It is not an assumption it is a fact. A class 2 rural school is at a huge disadvantage to a Class 2 Private school located in St Louis or any other large metro area where they can pick and chose between possible over 2,000 kids in a 30 mile radius. That is a fact. So how can you classify them as class 2 or 3 or a small school?

I hear you. I just don't know how much of a critical voting issue the whole public/private split IS to people when compared to test scores and how money is spent in classrooms. For me, it isn't a desire to promote more openness because I don't assume that families at private schools abuse the system with transfers and I don't think that public schools suffer significantly by having a few kids that might've gone to their school attend a private one instead. But that's just me.

As far as competitive advantages go, I don't know if I'd say that Class 2 or Class 3 schools DO dominate rural schools in football. JBS just won 2 years ago and Lamar hasn't struggled against privates. In fact, I think Lamar has an advantage because they don't have to share kids with another school in their community (and they have, what, 80 kids on their roster?). Except for Trinity last year, I don't think private schools have even been a factor in post-season play to a significant degree since the early 2000s.

If it weren't for the fact that kids were getting scholarship offers from colleges, would you even KNOW how many kids enrolled as Freshmen into LN and Trinity or even transferred in later? Prior to 2015, it doesn't even appear to have been an issue worthy of debate on this message board.

 

[bullitpdq68]

I hear you. I just don't know how much of a critical voting issue the whole public/private split IS to people when compared to test scores and how money is spent in classrooms. For me, it isn't a desire promote more openness because I don't assume that families at private schools abuse the system with transfers and I don't think that public schools suffer significantly by having a few kids that might've gone to their school attend a private one instead. But that's just me.

As far as competitive advantages go, I don't know if I'd say that Class 2 or Class 3 schools DO dominate rural schools in football. JBS just won 2 years ago and Lamar hasn't struggled against privates. In fact, I think Lamar has an advantage because they don't have to share kids with another school in their community (and they have, what, 80 kids on their roster?). Except for Trinity last year, I don't think private schools have even been a factor in post-season play to a significant degree since the early 2000s.

If it weren't for the fact that kids were getting scholarship offers from colleges, would you even KNOW how many kids enrolled as Freshmen into LN and Trinity or even transferred in later? Prior to 2015, it doesn't even appear to have been an issue worthy of debate on this message board.

Actually it was it has always been huge thing on here, for years there was a fellow who went by CEOmaterial who was always talking about the Rock. Well then they played Webb City two years in a row and got crushed and they have fallen on hard times recruiting and well you don't hear much about them anymore well not so much since Webb pretty much ended that debate.

JBS was a big one especially since they had a running back from Illinois on their team, but they have fallen on hard times too. But we ran into their soccer team last year in the finals. Know all to well about private school advantages.

 

[rebelman54]

Let's be honest, duck_walk makes a great point in boards and administration not wanting to upset voters, but another point is that AD's will sit down with coaches and instead of voting based on what they believe to be right or wrong, they will instead go through the numbers and see if it would negatively affect what class they would end up in.

 

[panther72]

Let's be honest, duck_walk makes a great point in boards and administration not wanting to upset voters, but another point is that AD's will sit down with coaches and instead of voting based on what they believe to be right or wrong, they will instead go through the numbers and see if it would negatively affect what class they would end up in.

YES, and for the majority of public schools it is either no factor - Class 6 - or makes it tougher to compete against schools with larger enrollment - Class 1 for all and Class 5 for almost all.

 

[bullitpdq68]

Let's be honest, duck_walk makes a great point in boards and administration not wanting to upset voters, but another point is that AD's will sit down with coaches and instead of voting based on what they believe to be right or wrong, they will instead go through the numbers and see if it would negatively affect what class they would end up in.

This is only going to be a concern were there are alot of private schools in Public school districts. I only see that being an issue in places like St Louis. Most of the time like in SWMo not enough kids attend private school to hold sway over our boards. Even in KC they have alot of top public schools versus St Louis. St Louis must be a hot mess and waste land for public schools.

As for talking to coaches you would have to talk to so many the affect would be spread out over so many sports. Monett is in Class 2 in some sports all the way to class 4 in others, how could you figure it all out?

 

[Mike*Honcho]

How does that work for out of state kids who go to school at Private schools and play on the sport teams?

As far as I know, the 30 mile radius rule doesn't change when it encounters a state line.

 

[Mike*Honcho]

This public vs. private argument has been going on for at least 15 years on this message board. The fact that MSHSAA held a vote on it shows that there are quite a few people that are concerned about it.

 

[crusader_2]

This public vs. private argument has been going on for at least 15 years on this message board. The fact that MSHSAA held a vote on it shows that there are quite a few people that are concerned about it.

The last vote was in 2007. It lost by 200 votes and received a vote of "no confidence" by MSHSAA's BoD before it went to vote. There is more concern on this message board than there is among ADs statewide.

 

[bullitpdq68]

The last vote was in 2007. It lost by 200 votes and received a vote of "no confidence" by MSHSAA's BoD before it went to vote. There is more concern on this message board than there is among ADs statewide.

I believe that view is changing....Maybe does not have the votes yet but for sure St Louis schools are getting tired of it, and just like you said MSHSAA has already said it is okay to forfeit if you don't like it we will turn our head.

 

[crusader_2]

I believe that view is changing....Maybe does not have the votes yet but for sure St Louis schools are getting tired of it, and just like you said MSHSAA has already said it is okay to forfeit if you don't like it we will turn our head.

MSHSAA only took schools at their word when they said they had too many injuries to safely play a game. No one has said Trinity or Lutheran North has cheated or that they forfeited or refuse to play them because they don't believe MSHSAA hasn't handled the issue fairly. Who knows what would happen should a vote be taken?

 

[bullitpdq68]

MSHSAA only took schools at their word when they said they had too many injuries to safely play a game. No one has said Trinity or Lutheran North has cheated or that they forfeited or refuse to play them because they don't believe MSHSAA hasn't handled the issue fairly. Who knows what would happen should a vote be taken?

 

[bullitpdq68]

 

[NorthWestBleachers]

It goes without saying [but, I probably said it earlier in the post that won't die] publics who have high turnout numbers for football still only play 11 kids at a time. Sometimes there is depth on that sideline and sometimes there isn't. Lamar, in particular, has freshman standing on the sideline on Friday night [someone mentioned that once on here ... I assume it's true]. I would assume this would be a great opportunity for a forward thinking coaching staff to involve the future of your team in Varsity play-- if you do it right. Even if it's carrying the water so to speak. Taking the 60 or 70 or 90 kids you have within your district and making the most of a couple of dozen of the best of them is STILL just not the same as pulling the best couple of dozen you are able to lure away from among thousands. Let's not make the 'unfair advantage' argument in Barton County. Those boys are all willing to put in the work to be a part of that program. They still only play 11 at a time. Great life lessons for those boys there and at other SWMO schools who are willing to do the work and rarely play.

 

[crusader_2]

What I REALLY think is that ADs won't force the issue on private schools because it isn't the "competitive issue" that people think it is. I don't know what it's like anywhere other than in Metro STL, but there are WAY more public schools here and the issue of families using fraudulent addresses to fake residency so their kids can attend a different public school is WAAAY more prevalent than 2-3 kids at private schools with 320 students. I get why you'd be a zealot against the evils of private schools (whether they're real or not) but there are bigger issues than this. Especially since the private school boogie man doesn't affect everyone equally. Even Monett can't blame private schools for not having the kids that they feel they "deserve" because they went to private schools instead of their local public HS. If anything, it was another public school that "poached" your kids.

 

[crusader_2]

Just because YOU are convinced it's happening doesn't mean everyone else that matters (and the ONLY people whose opinions matter are at MSHSAA) see the invisible menace that you do.

If there was a vote on this message board, you'd pass it. You might as well be sensitive about it being 45 degrees outside right now because you want it to be 80.

 

[crusader_2]

It goes without saying [but, I probably said it earlier in the post that won't die] publics who have high turnout numbers for football still only play 11 kids at a time. Sometimes there is depth on that sideline and sometimes there isn't. Lamar, in particular, has freshman standing on the sideline on Friday night [someone mentioned that once on here ... I assume it's true]. I would assume this would be a great opportunity for a forward thinking coaching staff to involve the future of your team in Varsity play-- if you do it right. Even if it's carrying the water so to speak. Taking the 60 or 70 or 90 kids you have within your district and making the most of a couple of dozen of the best of them is STILL just not the same as pulling the best couple of dozen you are able to lure away from among thousands. Let's not make the 'unfair advantage' argument in Barton County. Those boys are all willing to put in the work to be a part of that program. They still only play 11 at a time. Great life lessons for those boys there and at other SWMO schools who are willing to do the work and rarely play.

What is the "lure" you imagine is happening? I don't know what Catholics and Lutheran's are like where YOU live, but in STL there isn't gold in little Class 2 football teams that haven't won a State Championship in 15+ years. Missouri ISN'T Texas. Even in "The Big City" of St. Louis.

 

[crusader_2]

And don't act like you're being provoked. You're still taking shots on other threads, and I haven't returned fire. You already know I have NO problem fighting back, but don't act like you have anything other than the support of the peanut gallery on this issue. If it was the egregious evil you think it is then MSHSAA and ADs would be doing something different and I'D be the one acting like Don Quixote.

 

[bullitpdq68]

What I REALLY think is that ADs won't force the issue on private schools because it isn't the "competitive issue" that people think it is. I don't know what it's like anywhere other than in Metro STL, but there are WAY more public schools here and the issue of families using fraudulent addresses to fake residency so their kids can attend a different public school is WAAAY more prevalent than 2-3 kids at private schools with 320 students. I get why you'd be a zealot against the evils of private schools (whether they're real or not) but there are bigger issues than this. Especially since the private school boogie man doesn't affect everyone equally. Even Monett can't blame private schools for not having the kids that they feel they "deserve" because they went to private schools instead of their local public HS. If anything, it was another public school that "poached" your kids.

LOL nobody poached our kids, for a small rural public school Monett holds it's own in alot of sports. We have state titles in several sports, again we just won the class 3 girls softball and yes we beat two private schools to do it. Zealot I am not, I called your precious MSHSAA I wish others on here would too they did mention they would like to hear from the public on this subject.

I just don't think there is any way to keep the playing field level between public and private schools at this point in time, I see things getting worse not better. But that is my opinion. But like you said you live in the metro STL area I live in rural SWMo.

 

[stl17]

There is truth to what crusader_2 is saying about the attention is coming from the kids getting offers, but I think that is also a telling trend. Just doing a quick look at 247 of the top players in Missouri, no graduating class has had more than 1/3 of the players coming from private schools going back to 2014-2018 classes. Then you look at the Class of 2019, and 11 of the top 15 are from private schools, all St Louis area. 2020 appears early to be the same with the kids from LN and Trinity. So he is correct that's what's gaining attention, but it is also a fact to say the growing trend is a much larger concentration of the top players in state are now leaving their STL public school system to attend a private school. This was nothing new with the big MCC Class 6 schools, but the Class 2 influx of incredible talent raises eyebrows. Pair those incoming freshmen classes with timely transfers like Trinity had last year (2 all-state players who moved from Class 4 to 2 ) and Lutheran North this year (best players from Class 4/5 Vashon and Hazelwood West, in addition to their stud from U-City the year before) and it really brings the spotlight on these two programs. I will say this though, these two teams are doing what you should do with that amount of talent...win and win big.

 

[Saints-1-fan]

Thinking outside the box here, forget private/public - have urban KC and St Louis play each other, and the rest of the state play as it is now !

 

[Duck_walk]

The last vote was in 2007. It lost by 200 votes and received a vote of "no confidence" by MSHSAA's BoD before it went to vote. There is more concern on this message board than there is among ADs statewide.

A lot of St Louis area pub districts likely vote against it to not alienate voters. Same goes for towns like Festus, St. Gen, Perryville, etc who have private schools. That is a lot of schools right there.

 

[ChaoticFanatic]

But do we really even want it to die???

It's a hell of a lot better than one other thread that seemed to never die on here for awhile haha.

I think we can all agree on that.

 

[BoosterBosko]

It's a hell of a lot better than one other thread that seemed to never die on here for awhile haha.

I think we can all agree on that.

Hmmmmm............

 

[ChaoticFanatic]

It's a hell of a lot better than one other thread that seemed to never die on here for awhile haha.

I think we can all agree on that.

Hmmmmm............

 

[BoosterBosko]

I can only assume you are referring to the living history thread about the Doc Guys......

 

[Johnny Walker]

I can only assume you are referring to the living history thread about the Doc Guys......

 

[bullitpdq68]

 

[BoosterBosko]

Now youre talking Johnny! I say we storm the keep! Throw out those Wannabes that have taken up residence!!!

 

[Johnny Walker]

Now youre talking Johnny! I say we storm the keep! Throw out those Wannabes that have taken up residence!!!

 

[panther72]

FBI, I would like to report a hi-jack taking place.

 

[BoosterBosko]

FBI, I would like to report a hi-jack taking place.

No hi-jack! This just happens to be the place the Doc Guys decided to come together and reclaim what is rightfully ours! You should be excited to be apart of history!!

 

[shoot90draw]

FBI, I would like to report a hi-jack taking place.

No hi-jack! This just happens to be the place the Doc Guys decided to come together and reclaim what is rightfully ours! You should be excited to be apart of history!!

Ya! be excited to be making history! Besides, at least this is new material. How many times has everyone debated private/public schools on here? It gets old!

 

[bullitpdq68]

Yeah I think Crusader left anyways. He disappeared like Calvin.

 

[J.Moxon]

Yeah I think Crusader left anyways. He disappeared like Calvin.

Crusader is a Wannabe???

 

[bullitpdq68]

Crusader is a Wannabe???

I can see that...

 

[J.Moxon]

I can see that...

 

[BoosterBosko]

Yeah I think Crusader left anyways. He disappeared like Calvin.

Dont mention Calvin. The last thing we need is him showing up and rallying his troops!