I agree completely rawmeat, and I don't give a $4!# what the hell color their skin is. The fact that LN and like schools choose to stack the deck with the best of STL and then "compete" against small town 2A teams is just moronic. How do they get any fulfillment out of that. It's literally childish. I don't let it all get to me TOO bad, but when I hear the race card being played, or the "public's do it too" card played, it makes me lose respect for anyone makes the stupid claim that things are as equitable as possible, because that is literally an ignorant, incompetent statement
Cardinal Ritter 0 - 7?
- Thread starter VarsitySTLBlues
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If has nothing to do with race . It has to do with current success . When Valle and Rockhurst were mowing down everyone and winning state about every other year .....there was huge outcry . Not as much with Rockhurst because they are class 6 but the Valle haters were very deep because they have a crazy advantage over other class 1 schools who might have a town population of 1k people
The playoff brackets would show that they were not dominant. That team that lost in the title game was not very good.
Well, it's also true in some situations. And it is present on this forum at times. No doubt.
It's not the school's fault, it is a MSHSSA issue. Schools should be allowed to play in a higher class if they want to. MSHSSA forces schools like LN to play in 2A. I am sure they would prefer in a higher class. Could be a moot point anyway with the success qualifier going into effect. Yeah, there are race issues as well. Example is Priory which refuses to play LN in football despite being in the same conference. They are willing to play other schools in the conference who have blown them out in the past but have a problem playing LN. How do you explain that without bringing up race?
Noone WANTS to bring up race. But you can't ignore the facts and bat an eye at "coincidence".
So what if Lutheran North, Trinity and/or Cardinal Ritter has 50 D1 athletes on their team...How many State Championships have they won?
Where is the advantage/disadvantage? Teams with ZERO division one athletes have beaten them year after year.
The arguments presented against separating public and private are not valid at the small school level. Hatred that these small programs are getting college exposure for their athletes is a fact. THAT is what small town USA hates to see. It's jealousy over D1 "offers". It has nothing to do with Championships.
So what if Lutheran North, Trinity and/or Cardinal Ritter has 50 D1 athletes on their team...How many State Championships have they won?
Where is the advantage/disadvantage? Teams with ZERO division one athletes have beaten them year after year.
The arguments presented against separating public and private are not valid at the small school level. Hatred that these small programs are getting college exposure for their athletes is a fact. THAT is what small town USA hates to see. It's jealousy over D1 "offers". It has nothing to do with Championships.
Why would a team with 28 athletes in their entire program want to play a team with 75+?
You can't dictate class because of talent level. The new MSHSAA rule and elimination of the multiplier will move teams based on their success over the last few years. Not just because they have a talented senior class full of D1 kids.
Its unfortunate that a Class 2 sized SCHOOL's team could be moved up to Class 4 because of a few good years. What happens when that talent graduates. Then that program will be getting creamed for another 5 years before they can move back down based on their school's enrollment.
People hate CR , LN and TC for the same 2 reasons people hate the New York Yankees .
1) . Success ....people hate winners ( I hate the Patriots , Yankees , Bama , Kentucky basketball, and Lakers )
2 ) the fact that those teams have an unfair advantage and SHOULD win . Baseball has no salary cap so teams with high incomes like the Yankees can get whatever roster they want that about 25 other teams can't ...Bama ...gets the best recruits every single year ...they get the Lions share of the 5* kids ...hot take ....saban isn't that great of a coach or he would win every year because with his talent ...he should ...Same with Kentucky basketball...
When you throw 10-15 d-1 athletes or more and have them play rural schools that aren't big enough for a McDonald's....they SHOULD win and people are happy as hell when they dont . The playing field is insurmountable....if those teams were class 6 ...people would still bitch but not as bad because it would give public's a fighting chance
1) . Success ....people hate winners ( I hate the Patriots , Yankees , Bama , Kentucky basketball, and Lakers )
2 ) the fact that those teams have an unfair advantage and SHOULD win . Baseball has no salary cap so teams with high incomes like the Yankees can get whatever roster they want that about 25 other teams can't ...Bama ...gets the best recruits every single year ...they get the Lions share of the 5* kids ...hot take ....saban isn't that great of a coach or he would win every year because with his talent ...he should ...Same with Kentucky basketball...
When you throw 10-15 d-1 athletes or more and have them play rural schools that aren't big enough for a McDonald's....they SHOULD win and people are happy as hell when they dont . The playing field is insurmountable....if those teams were class 6 ...people would still bitch but not as bad because it would give public's a fighting chance
Could you imagine what would happen if small private schools in Joplin did the same active recruiting that the St. Louis schools do ? Throw the best players from Webb , Carthage , Joplin , Neosho , Seneca , CJ etc and put them in McCauley , College Heights , or Thomas Jefferson then have them compete in class 1 . The result would be a state championship basically every year . That's why people hate private schools ....combine the recruiting area and the population is well over 100k more people then teams they would play like Miller or PC
It's a rolling 6 year point system. They would move down as points drop off if they don't succeed in the higher class. Keep in mind Lutheran North was a leader in this proposal so they obviously feel it will not hurt them too bad.
Detail exactly how race is involved in any of this.
Racism is used as a smoke bomb to cloud the real issues. There are ignorant, small minded people that judge someone by skin color but systemic racism doesn't exist. Crying this all the time creates a victim mentality and harms the very ones that those crying racism think they're defending.
The reality here is that these schools go against the justice/fair place in every one of us. They're able to do what most schools can't and THAT is the issue.
In the new system the highest Lutheran North will get is Class 3.
By taking away the multiplier and going off enrollment, LN is a Class 1 school. If the most they can get moved up is 2 Classes, then they have nothing to worry about.
They'll still have the opportunity to run through small public schools with their St. Louis All-Star team.
Care to share how? I haven't seen a proposal, only the initial release and a speculated point structure.
The multiplier is gone.
Their enrollment is like 140, they are solidly a Class 1 school based solely on enrollment.
If the most they can be moved up is two Classes, then the highest they'll ever be is Class 3. They can now through Class 3 just like they do Class 2.
Of course they supported the proposal, it barely impacts them, while getting to look like they're trying to "play up".
Co-ed. Pretty sure they will be class 1 w/o the success factor.
There is going to be a schiest storm when the publics realize who is moving down into there classification because the multiplier is gone. The initial reasons for the multiplier still exists so why is it gone? SNOW JOB.
Ok and?
A St. Louis area all-star team playing a 7 or 8 seed Class 1 or 2 public school team is dangerous.
This is an uneducated assumption. Stop whining! That's like saying a Class 3 or 4 school can't beat a Class 6 school. It happens all the time. Class has NOTHING to do with talent. It's based on school enrollment.
That's an apples and oranges comparison for a lot of reasons.
1. There are class 4 teams with 150 boys walking the halls in a single class (Freshman, Sophomore, etc.) Whereas a lot of Class 1 schools don't have 150 kids in the entire school. Taking a small rural Class 1 school who finished 8th in their district and forcing them to play a St. Louis all-star team is begging for someone to get seriously injured. If 7th ranked in Class 4 Farmington got beat by 4 touchdowns, what chance does ANY small rural team have?
Yeah your response will be, they haven't won any championships, and that's ONLY because arguably an all-time great coach had an unprecedented run at Lamar and they got beat by an equally stacked St. Louis All-star team last year.
What it boils down to is the difference in equality and equity.
Are they playing in the Class the state has deemed it necessary for them to play in given their inherent advantages? Yes, and in that way MSHSAA has attempted to create an EQUAL playing field. But it will never be equitable because of the inherent advantages private schools have (recruiting, tuition assistance for athletes, access to a recruiting area with 1.5 million people in it).
You can't have equity when one school gets to select it's students from a population of 1.5 million people and everyone else is stuck with what they have within their district.
So yeah, the state has took a swing at equality, but probably needs to turn the focus to equity.
Which is why so many are pleased when those teams falter. We love the smell of schadenfreude in the morning.
Many times on here the reference is made about how it isn't fair for "small, rural schools," or "small town schools" to play these St Louis private schools. Isn't it irrelevant the geographic location of the schools? Or maybe it is entirely relevant to the poster? I've just noticed it's very common place with some posters on here.
Notice no one ever mentions or cares about playing St. Louis public schools. It's not a race issue or whatever these people are trying to make it.
It's because these small private schools that recruit an area with a population of well over a million people and can assemble all-star teams.
If I'm a small rural public school, I have ZERO issue playing Carnahan, Roosevelt, Jennings, Vashon, U City, Miller Career, or any other public high school because they're playing by the same rules as the small rural schools are.
It's all about talent pool.
That's the issue with valle. They use a class 4 talent pool to play class 1 football.
I see.
After looking at past playoff brackets, I would make the argument that it is not about talent pool, but about many other factors, including quality of coaching staffs.
Of course there are tons of contributing factors to success, but as the saying goes it's usually more about the Jimmy's and Joe's than the X's and O's.
You can run the same offense, defense, and coach in the EXACT same way, but I'm willing to bet you'll have a lot more success with Lutheran North, Ritter, or Trinity's roster than you would with virtually any other roster across the state.
I think that's my biggest gripe, these All-star teams trivialize the coaching profession. My wife could win 9 games at Lutheran North.
You may be right but ive never heard of a valle coach moving to a public school and having great success. Correct me if i missed that
No doubt that talent is the biggest factor. But the private school matter has long been used as an excuse by people who do not win, long before these all-star teams started being assembled. And it still is.
Teams like LN and Ritter act the same way as my future ex,. They know they do it (hand pick players for all star teams), they know it is absurd, and they likely even know that it is everything high school sports should not stand for; but since guilt and wrong doing cant me tangibly PROVEN, and since no one can prove tangibly that it's all a racket, then they just stand there, proud as a peacock, chin up, and say "NOPE, wo don't do it. Youre a racist".
Yeah because they don't play by the same rules to begin with. And the All-star teams are just exacerbating the issue.
But there are public schools that win state championships every year. I guess some need excuses, some don't.
The question really boils down to this, Does a private school have a competitive advantage when they can draw from a much larger pool of athletes compared to a public school in the same classification? In most of these cases the answer is yes. Therefore any logical person should understand why most rural public schools are upset. Classifications are designed to have competitive balance when all things are equal, in the case of these private schools this is not happening.
Ya its funny when valle was down SV was up. Co-inky-dink i'm sure.
Have any SV coaches gone on to great success in a public school?
