And pep rallies!!!
Real 8 Man Question, hopefully with minimal trolling responses.....
- Thread starter vandyfan1313
- Start date
Lawful is not always Ethical
Yes I have personally heard coaches bragging about going 8 man to avoid opponents and losing seasons.
So your answer is to teach student-athletes that when life gets tough take the easiest road at others expense? A man’s word is his bond unless it gets tough then we’ll see. Uhmmm just give everybody 3 wins and drop 8 man.
I completely agree with you there, it does diminish the value of the 8 man game, and while I agree with most teams' reasons to switch to 8 man, I do not condone switching at the last minute. That screws everybody, including themselves trying to make a schedule ironically. Coaches, admin, etc. should all have a ballpark idea of what kind of numbers are coming in future years and should plan accordingly. I also do not like the idea of teams moving back and forth for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, I think the only true solution is for MSHSAA to actually treat 8 man like the other classifications and assign teams to it by size rather than letting teams choose. As long as it is strictly a choice, this debate will never fully end, nor will the problems we are both facing on opposite ends of the spectrum right now.
I see the main problem is when schools change to 8-man in the middle of a two-year contract. It leaves the other schools on the schedule in a lurch. If a team (in any class) breaks a contract in the middle of a two-year deal, I don’t think they should eligible for the playoffs that year.
BOOM! Bosko coming in with the facts!
I agree. This is the big downfall with one year cycles unfortunately if MSHSAA isn't going to assign teams to 8 man like they do other classes.
I'm sure that you have heard a coach or 2 say that. However, has it crossed your mind that they were talking about those two things as possible byproducts of switching to 8-man, rather than as reasons for switching? A thin distinction, to be sure, but a distinction worth considering.
So your answer when someone does something that is legal and accepted, but that you disagree with, is to disparage the "ethics" of the situation, ethics which you have invented for yourself and this particular situation, and then drop platitudes as if they are pearls of wisdom? Who is determining the ethics of this situation? You?
I also find it interesting and very transparent that when your argument gets weak, your personal attacks get stronger. You have chosen to frame this issue in a way that makes your personal attacks and emotional appeals seem like logical arguments, and I'm sure, to you, they seem perfectly logical.
I sympathize with your loss of games on the schedule and the last minute nature of such switches, but it isn't for you or me to determine their reasoning or the ethics of the situation.
What personal attacks? If you look at the posts I am the one who has been apparently BUTT HURT and called out by you and other posters for sharing an opinion backed by some very good arguments. Now do I think you have some valid points yes but need to gain a better perspective of the difference between ethics and law. Ethics is the moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting of an activity. I am not sure why, this is so hard for you to understand this point of view? Now here are the comments made by Coaches going to 8 man I have overheard by not only myself but other coaches as well. These are just a few quotes and scary thing is made by 5 different coaches from 5 different programs.
1. There is no way in hell we are going to play Tipton, Cole Camp, and Windsor. We'll just go 8 man and win 7-8 games.
2. Cass Midway and Adrian oh hell no we'll pick up somebody like Chilhowee, Northwest, or Greenfield.
3. Our team finished 2nd in state in 8 man if we had been playing 11 man in the Kaysinger we would have finished last.
4. We only have 3 offensive linemen with a plethora of skill players. If we go 8 man we might win it all.
5. it’s worth a 3 hour drive one way to win by 50 than drive 25 minutes to take a chance on not winning.
I am not sure how these comments can be misunderstand, maybe they were said a spirit of gamesmanship and friendship if so I apologize.
Let's not pretend that this is something new. There is no "greater" last place trophy than the Confederate flag and idiots have flown that for a long, long time.
I have little doubt some of those type of quotes have been made, and unfortunately comments/attitudes like that continue to disparage the game of 8 man, and it's annoying to have come from 8 man coaches. I will also add that the weaker teams in 8 man have happened to be been in your backyard in SW MO the last few years, so that certainly hasn't helped it look any different from your perspective, since i'm guessing you're down there somewhere. So, I understand what you're saying.
Ironically, we're somewhat making the same point about 8 man needing more depth, albeit in different, at times heated ways. As of now, there is a large disparity between the top level 8 man teams and the lower tier. While I think the same could be said about classes 1-6 as well at this point, people pay more attention to our lower tier because our overall number of teams is so much lower (23 in 2018) and teams that switch end up picking up the lower tier teams on the schedule out of necessity, which can make 8 man seem easier than it is at times..... The only solution is for more teams at the 8 man level. That is going to require one of two things happening: Either MSHSAA is going to have to take the bottom 28, 32, 48, etc. enrollment teams and assign them to 8 man like Iowa does; or the perception of 8 man is going to have to switch from being viewed as a last resort to being viewed as a wise, viable option. Unfortunately, I don't see either of these happening in the foreseeable future.
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Are you happy now vandyfan? You got an actual discussion about 8 man football going.
And the issue with that is depending on where the enrollment cutoff is, you'd have schools like Valle Catholic and potentially Hayti forced into a situation where they would much rather play 11 man and would be so geographically isolated that it may become more feasible to just shut down the program than have to drive up to 7 hours in order to play a game.
I'm 6'8", have washboard abs, and am worth several billion dollars...see how easy it is to make something up online?
I'm not saying that none of those things were said, but anecdotal evidence without specific citation is ultimately without value.
Very interesting? I really think the bottom 32-48 teams participating in 8 man would be outstanding and if you are not in that class field an 11 man. Does Iowa give the bottom 28-48 schools a choice or is it automatic?
I agree that type of thing presents an obstacle, so I actually think the best solution is to follow the model Oregon uses. They have a hard cut line, then a buffer zone above that where teams can play 11 or 8 slightly above that, then a hard cap above that with everyone above playing 8. Essentially 2 enrollment breaks.
Tennessee had something similar with their largest class at one time, and may still, though it wasn't a true buffer zone persay. Teams at the bottom of the largest class could play down to class 5 if they could find another team willing to switch with them. I want to say Florida had something similar at one time, but might be mistaken.
So what would the hypothetical hard cutoff number be?
By forcing small schools to commit to being 8 man and/or forcing some to be Class 1, you're opening up a lot of scenarios (travel cost, inability to compete, lack of numbers, etc) where schools say screw it and just drop football altogether to the detriment of the kids, the school, the community, and the sport.
I don't know the answer to that because they would have to decide if they are going to start at 8 man and work up, or start at class 6 and work down. Also would have to look at a maximum number of teams they would want. I think the current hard cap is 150 9th-11th grade, which is probably too high for a cutoff. 115 and below maybe could work, with 115-165 teams having the option?
115 and below would give you 36 teams if my math is right and I didn't leave anyone out (I probably did.) I tried to keep them somewhat regional. The number also goes to 38 if you add in current members LeBlond and Osceola, who both fall in the "optional" window:
SW
Greenfield
Jasper
Liberal
Midway
Appleton City
Chilhowhee
Lincoln
Drexel
Rich Hill
West Central
Northwest (Hughesville)
Sacred Heart
Sweet Springs
Concordia
Wellington Napoleon
Santa Fe
Orrick
N/H-C
Central/Northeast
Knox County
North Shelby
Paris
Braymer
SW Livingston
Slater
Northwest
Rock Port
North Andrew
Albany
Worth County
Stanberry
Dekalb
Pattonsburg
Mound City
Stewartsville
King City
SH/NH
N/W Nodaway
South Nodaway
I don't expect it to happen like this. I'm just spitballing and trying to show much more stable, deeper and more competitive 8 man would be going this route. I don't think anyone could claim 8 man was a joke with some of those schools involved though.
So if/when Crystal City (enrollment 122) or Hayti (130) drop below 115 and the only options are play 8 man and drive 6+ hours to play or drop football?
That would have to be addressed by MSHSAA when they reached that point, I would like to think they would raise or lower the cap until travel for them gets more manageable. Again, I'm just spitballing here, I know it isn't foolproof at this point.
It was announced today, Sacred Heart will not play football by itself this year. They are going to play with NW Hughesville next season.
Yes Leblond is 8-man now. They will more than likely move into the spot that was taken by St. Joseph Christian, now that they co-op’d with Northland Christian to play 11 man starting this season.
People sometimes let their emotions get in the way of logic. I'm talking to you, wife.
