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You're getting as hard-headed as 3R. Why in the world would the Birds mortgage the future on a rental THIS season? No doubt the dude can flat rake. But even with him on the team THIS year, the Birds didn't stand a realistic chance of doing a lot in the playoffs. Now next year, that's a different story. If the Birds don't go into next season with money spent on a banger, upgrade defensively at SS, and bullpen improvements...then bang on MO all you want. But to do it now just makes you seem like a grumpy old man, which I can totally appreciate. But you're better than that. MO has kept this club in a position to compete every year for 10 or 11 seasons now. You gotta trust the guy for that. He's got pieces in place to make moves. Let's see if he does it.
You over value our prospects. We hang on to them and they amount to mediocre with a Martinez here and there mixed in. I bet you bitched when we have up wallace and two others for Holliday. If you didnt then why not? He was a rental bro. Take the sure thing!!!!!
I didn't. Wallace was the only decent player in that deal. And most had seen enough of him to know...1. He couldn't handle anything in...2. He was positionless.
Prospects/young players are value whether you see it or not. The key for MO this offseason, is how he manages that value. This really is the first offseason he's truly had glaring needs to address. We know what most of these guys are by now. Time to adjust.
He had glaring needs last off season.
And the year before that if you paid attention during the second half of the 100 win season.
This didnt happen over night. Holliday was getting old and we had no reliable stick in the middle. You saw that coming. I know you want Mo to be Wolverine and Hulk all rolled into one. But good grief.
Im not a grumpy old man. I just know how long a dry spell can last. When u have a chance to make a move to pull out a playoff appearance you better take the risk. And again how much did Arizona really give up? We have pitchers and outfielders stacked up in a closet.
Honny was our #4 for 2 years. If that's not a glaring need then we will win the world series this year
What does it matter what they gave up? The value of the trade was meaningless to us for a guy who was only under contract through 2017.
The optimal amount for the Cards to trade away in net post-2017 value at the deadline was about zero.
Your complaints are all about how cheap he was. that's true, but if your goal is to win a WS, that only matters to the extent that being cheap has some sort of value to help your team make the playoffs/win a title.
You don't take wild chances down 5 games at the deadline. Especially when the team above you is pretty clearly better than you on paper.
5 games is a lot of ground to make up in 2 months.
This is wishcasting, not rational analysis of what a GM/baseball team should actually do.
The Cards scored the third most runs in the NL in 2016 and are above average in 2017. We hit the most HR in the NL in 2016 and are right at the average for 2017. Yes, a big hitter could help, but it's not a panacea. We have seven guys who hit 18 HR, and a lot of those guys project to have reasonable power next year.
What matters more than blindly signing HR is thinking about where the Cards can rationally get better. There's pretty clearly room for another good OF. This team needs bullpen help. SS is still a big question overall. Another good arm could fit well in the rotation given the potential departure of Lynn, aging of Waino, and injury concerns of Wacha and Reyes. Instead of lazer focusing on one of those needs, they ought to evaluate what they can improve in the most stable and cost effective way.
This team needs to get about 4-5 wins better on paper to be a playoff team. That means they have to fix multiple holes.
You would do things one way. I would do things another. The Holliday deal was a great deal. I would be looking for those every year if I am within 50 miles of a playoff berth.
If you know how long a dry spell lasts, you should appreciate your GM not bouncing assets for a three month rental. That's how clubs end up in those positions to begin with.
Personal preferences. I'd MUCH rather be competitive without a championship for an extended period than to be the Marlins or some other team that is non competitive for extended periods, spends a load, mortgages the farm, and wins one. Late 80's to mid 90's were like 100 yrs for a Birds fan. I get it if you're the other way. Just not for me.
Especially when the only risk I'm taking is my time and what ever money I spend going to games. I want to see the team try to win championships every year and I don't feel they have done as much as could be done to do that. In my mind they are unwilling to take a risk if it means it might hurt their bottom line. Now before you get on here and tell me how dumb I am Neuty just save it. These are my feelings and have nothing to do with %s or some analysis that would support you telling me how dumb I am.
I don't see it as them viewing it as how it hurts the bottom line. I view it is how they feel it could affect the future. It's obvious their goal is to build a contender annually while having cheap assets at their disposal. It's the blueprint to remaining competitive for extended periods if you don't have unlimited cash flow (NYY, LAD).Especially when the only risk I'm taking is my time and what ever money I spend going to games. I want to see the team try to win championships every year and I don't feel they have done as much as could be done to do that. In my mind they are unwilling to take a risk if it means it might hurt their bottom line. Now before you get on here and tell me how dumb I am Neuty just save it. These are my feelings and have nothing to do with %s or some analysis that would support you telling me how dumb I am.
Don't disagree Eags, but as I stated I have little to lose and want more from them.
I get we the fan have little to lose. Except the 10 yrs or so of my early teenage yrs up until about 21ish. Only good thing about them sucking was getting to the park an hour early, being about 20th in line for a $4 bleacher ticket, and having about 100 hoosiers out there with me and my buddies willing to buy beers if we'd throw them a few extra bucks. Lol. I still remember being crushed when bleachers became advanced sales. It was a dark day for me. Imagine the nuttyness now if they weren't.
I can one up you on that. I remember going and sitting in the bleachers for $2. Showing my age now.
The 2009 Cardinals were in a lot better shape than the 2017 Cardinals at the deadline. The calculus was different. And they pretty clearly had a plan to sign him long term.
Look at the wasteland that Detroit is going to be for awhile now. Owner wanted to win a title before he died. Went for it way too much.
Look, I'm all for saying that need to do something drastic in the offseason to rejigger the squad, but going in in a meaningful way to make the playoffs at the trade deadline when you're down 5 games to a very good team isn't science or art if your goal is to be competitive over the long term. It's stupidity. You don't need WAR or whatever to tell you that.
The Cards are very clearly managing for the long haul. They strike when they are close, and when they aren't they don't mortgage the future.
My God..... the only contract worse than Miggy is Pujols. They are going to be the early 2000s tigers again
What would the Cards really get for trading for Martinez? Miss the playoffs by 3 games instead of 4? How does that really incentivize people to spend a lot more money on the team?Especially when the only risk I'm taking is my time and what ever money I spend going to games. I want to see the team try to win championships every year and I don't feel they have done as much as could be done to do that. In my mind they are unwilling to take a risk if it means it might hurt their bottom line. Now before you get on here and tell me how dumb I am Neuty just save it. These are my feelings and have nothing to do with %s or some analysis that would support you telling me how dumb I am.
DeWitt has a powerful financial incentive to make the playoffs - those games are monetary bonzanas. He doesn't have much of an incentive to take on payroll to go 86-76 instead of 85-77.
Can't forget V Mart, Anibal Sanchez, and Jordan Zimmerman as well. This is also the team that signed Prince Fielder. (although lol to the Rangers for that trade.) Loads of mistakes.
Boston has a special place in this debate for Sandoval, Rusney Castillo, and Hanley Ramirez. They are lucky to have their minor league system.
Yep your right as usual! I'm sure you have the statistics to show he only worth one game a year bating 4th, hitting 30+ HR's and heaven forbid a 90+ RBI man
I don't get the 'big bat' thang. DeJong had 400 AB's, 24 HR's, 61 RBI and 121 SO's. 23 of the 24 HR's came after his 2nd call in mid June and he also hit 13 in the minors and some on here don't think he's power bat.
Pham had 432 AB's, 23 HR's 73 RBI and 114 SO's and these same people rave about him. I get that he's a better outfielder than DeJong is a SS but he still hit the heck out of the ball and he's rookie. I have no idea what he'll do next season but the dude IS a power bat.
Carp had 490 AB's 23 HR's, 69 RBI and 121 SO's and he's vet.
You were excited about Diaz's future one year ago today. How did that turn out for you? You were counting on Piscotty for 25 jacks. What did he get? Pham will be 30 next season. I hope he has another great year. What are the chances? You guys keep saying "big bat". What we need is a really good hitter we can put in the 3 hole every damn day and build a lineup around him. Look at the teams in the playoffs and show me one team that doesnt have that.
Red Sox and astros are both more about lineup consistency than having a mega HR stud.
Pham's been as good a #3 type hitter as anyone on those teams.
Both teams have an area where they are a lot better than us. Boston has chris sale and a better staff. They have a lot of good young athletic players who can play defense. The astros have an all world infield that can do it all.
The cards need to decide what sort of strong competency or competencies they can build like that. Not just blindly sign a slugger.
OK. NM. Did anyone in this thread or any other thread say "blindly sign a slugger"? We dont have to have a mega homerun stud. We need a really good hitter. As in high obp. Good power.
How did the Red Sox get Chris Sale to put them over the top? Oh yes. They gave up top prospects who may or may not be stars of the future. Why did they do that? Because Sale is a sure thing. Not a one year wonder.
Do you honestly believe Tommy Pham is going to match his 2017 numbers next year? He has been what the doctor ordered the second half of this season. I love watching his effort day in and day out. But seriously. Mo didnt even take him to STL to start the season.
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You complain constantly that the Cards don't have a slugger and whine about every one that ends up on a team other than the Cardinals.
The core of the Red Sox lineup is all homegrown prospects that they bet on - Benintendi, Bradley, Bogaerts, and Betts. The Sox use their budget space around these guys to fill in with the Sales and Prices of the world. Yes, they traded prospects for Sale, but they also put a ton of them in the lineup.
Sale is also quite different than almost anything you've discussed. When they traded for him he was 27, under contract for 3 more years, and was wildly underpaid. The Sox gave up a lot for him, yes, but that price also reflected the incredible value of his contract. It wasn't just the cost of getting a good player; it was the cost of getting a good player who is underpaid by ~$20 M a year.
I don't think Pham will match this year again, no. I think there is still potential to update the OF.
That's not what people are saying either.
The Cardinals should evaluate where their best opportunities are to improve relative to the cost it takes to make those improvements. If you have to roll with that as your 3, 4, 5 because you brought in a great SP, a defensive SS, and a couple quality relievers, you might live with that.
I'd DEFINITELY live with that. Addressing three of the four, that might be the top three I'd go after.
That would be great, but they won't bring in any of those things. Duck and I were screaming last year when the season started and Honny was batting 4th for the 2nd year in a row. They sign Fowler and he has been a solid sign offensively not so much on defense, but still made a poor decision thinking Carp would be a good fit in the 3 hole. Spent money on Cecil and for the 1st year is a disaster. Diaz,Piscotti, and Grichuk have not really worked out. This team has not improved over the last 3 years. Now they have to deal with an aging core and average to slightly above average players. There is not one superstar on this team and I doubt that they will have one next year.
Maybe I've missed it but I haven't seen much talk elsewhere about a SS. Lots of whining on here but have the Birds made upgrading a high priority? I did read where Ozzie has been working with DeJong and liked what he saw. I kind of took that as a hint that they were probably going to stick with him, as long as he continues to hit. Lol.
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