Shot Clock

[kaskaskiakid]

Well I hate to break this to you, but the shot clock is coming. Maybe not with this particular vote, but it will be here relatively soon. So you can be upset about it or adapt to it. I like how it changes the strategy of end of game situations. I think it will make coaching even more important.

I can't say I disagree with the inevitability of the shot clock. I do think it will lead to seeing more poor shot selection. I'm already sick of seeing kids who can't shoot chucking 3's from the bleachers. Haven't you ever noticed how many HS kids don't get off a good shot at the end of the quarter? Only the highly skilled HS player has the skill to make a 1 on 1 move in 2 or 3 seconds and get off a good shot.

My biggest problem with the shot clock is I was a big Dean Smith 4 corners guy in the last 2 minutes. Keep the ball in the hands of the free throw shooters and ball handlers. The shot clock will now bail out the defense. They can just sit back under the goal for :35, just guard the shooters, and don't have to force the action, don't have to foul, and don't have to get their bigs away from the goal. Isn't that the same problem you have with an offense - not forcing action??

 

[da bears 25]

I can't say I disagree with the inevitability of the shot clock. I do think it will lead to seeing more poor shot selection. I'm already sick of seeing kids who can't shoot chucking 3's from the bleachers. Haven't you ever noticed how many HS kids don't get off a good shot at the end of the quarter? Only the highly skilled HS player has the skill to make a 1 on 1 move in 2 or 3 seconds and get off a good shot.

My biggest problem with the shot clock is I was a big Dean Smith 4 corners guy in the last 2 minutes. Keep the ball in the hands of the free throw shooters and ball handlers. The shot clock will now bail out the defense. They can just sit back under the goal for :35, just guard the shooters, and don't have to force the action, don't have to foul, and don't have to get their bigs away from the goal. Isn't that the same problem you have with an offense - not forcing action??

From the HS games I've seen with the shot clock, I think you're going to be surprised about how little it impacts the game. I can remember maybe once or twice a game the shot clock was a factor.

If kids are jacking deeps 3's that can't shoot, that is a coaching problem and has nothing to do about implementing a shot clock.

All the shot clock does is keep the pace of play going from start to finish and prevents the 2,3, or even 4 minute stall game that nobody (damn near nobody) wants to do or watch, even the kids doing it.

 

[TadQueasy]

preach it brother da bears! That has been my point all along. I went to a tournament last year in Arkansas. I saw 2 missouri teams play and there was 1 shot clock violation between the 2 games I watched.

The major issue that some have is way more of a coaching philosophy than a shot clock problem.

Also very good point about the players in the game not wanting to be a part of a stall game.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

My job as coach is to give my team a chance to win.

False. It’s to tell them how good they are so mommy and daddy get warm fuzzies.

 

[Winston Bishop]

I can't say I disagree with the inevitability of the shot clock. I do think it will lead to seeing more poor shot selection. I'm already sick of seeing kids who can't shoot chucking 3's from the bleachers. Haven't you ever noticed how many HS kids don't get off a good shot at the end of the quarter? Only the highly skilled HS player has the skill to make a 1 on 1 move in 2 or 3 seconds and get off a good shot.

My biggest problem with the shot clock is I was a big Dean Smith 4 corners guy in the last 2 minutes. Keep the ball in the hands of the free throw shooters and ball handlers. The shot clock will now bail out the defense. They can just sit back under the goal for :35, just guard the shooters, and don't have to force the action, don't have to foul, and don't have to get their bigs away from the goal. Isn't that the same problem you have with an offense - not forcing action??

I think part of the problem with kids not getting a shot at the end of a quarter are the number of coaches I've seen not run something for their best or second best shooter in that situation. So much of coaching is finding a way to get the ball in your best players hands when it matters.

 

[mowesten]

The same arguments being made against the shot clock could also be made about the timeline and the backcourt violation.

The problem is the people who think Donkey Basketball is a "real sport" are deciding the rules of actual basketball for everyone else.

 

[kaskaskiakid]

I really don't have that big of issue with the shot clock except at the end of the game. I do wish they would turn it off the last 1:00 of the game.

Are all you pro clockers equally critical when a football team takes a knee 3 times in a row to run 1:45 off the clock with no action at the end of the game???

 

[chs_02]

No one has mentioned the cost for districts that are already strapped for cash. At the bare minimum it’s going to cost $7500 to install shot clocks and the necessary hardware. This is if you have newer boards that will integrate with a shot clock. If you have to buy new boards, add another $15k.

Now you have to have someone who really knows the game to run the shot clock, plus they will require 3 officials, who will also need to know how to officiate with the shot clock. Schools will have to pay this person, as well as find this person, in a climate where no one wants to do anything extra.

That being said, they are going to implement it whether the districts want it or not. I have talked to multiple administrators who attended multiple area meetings around the state, and they all say the same thing.

Personal opinion - if you don’t like people stalling, go guard them.

 

[TadQueasy]

They addressed some of those issues in the podcast on the MSHSAA page. The cost will be an issue for places, but lets be honest. Schools can find money and if they have to spend 10-15 thousand on something that will not be that major of an issue. It is a one time cost. Schools waste way more money than that on other things.

They also said that there are states that still let places use 2 man officiating crews. I would think this would have to be part of it because places are already having issues getting officials for games. So I can't see every game having to have 3 person crew.

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

False. It’s to tell them how good they are so mommy and daddy get warm fuzzies.

DO NOT YELL AT THEM EITHER. They are frigile

 

[Stryk3]

I am in favor of the shot clock. I think it will help the overall development of skill by players. They will have to become better scorers and more efficient shooters. Like anything you see in College/pros eventually trickles down to HS. I understand the well the team we are playing has a 6'10" and team is more athletic. But stalling and holding a ball for extended periods of time proves that team can move ball and handle ball well enough for the more athletic team to take it away....so be more efficient in scoring and passing with the shot clock. Rarely does a team that is way superior ever get stifled by the stall tactic of a inferior team. A shot clock will at least shorten the game up.

Football play clock, baseball now has pitch clock (supposedly with a timer by umpire). I think a shot clock in HS basketball would add to coaches being more aware of offensive efficient and teach kids how to shoot properly at a younger age.

 

[Stryk3]

They addressed some of those issues in the podcast on the MSHSAA page. The cost will be an issue for places, but lets be honest. Schools can find money and if they have to spend 10-15 thousand on something that will not be that major of an issue. It is a one time cost. Schools waste way more money than that on other things.

They also said that there are states that still let places use 2 man officiating crews. I would think this would have to be part of it because places are already having issues getting officials for games. So I can't see every game having to have 3 person crew.

Cost is a issue. Not only for the clock itself but now you have to hire an additional person to run the shot clock. It is hard enough to find announcers, and people to work scorers table.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

I am in favor of the shot clock. I think it will help the overall development of skill by players. They will have to become better scorers and more efficient shooters. Like anything you see in College/pros eventually trickles down to HS. I understand the well the team we are playing has a 6'10" and team is more athletic. But stalling and holding a ball for extended periods of time proves that team can move ball and handle ball well enough for the more athletic team to take it away....so be more efficient in scoring and passing with the shot clock. Rarely does a team that is way superior ever get stifled by the stall tactic of a inferior team. A shot clock will at least shorten the game up.

Football play clock, baseball now has pitch clock (supposedly with a timer by umpire). I think a shot clock in HS basketball would add to coaches being more aware of offensive efficient and teach kids how to shoot properly at a younger age.

The shot clock has been in the NBA for nearly 70 years. It has been in college for nearly 40 years. I think we're past the trickle down period.

Do you honestly think coaches are going to concentrate on overall skill development because of a shot clock? What will happen is basically the same thing you see now. For the few possessions most games that last longer than 35 seconds you'll just see a bad shot chucked up in the late clock scenario.

The shot clock in HS is a bad idea, IMHO. The play clock thing in football is a silly comparison. Hell, they're not actually "playing". It's not like the defense in football could come steal the ball or anything. In basketball, it's fairly simple. Don't like it, come out and defend. If you can't defend, you probably weren't going to win anyway.

 

[Stryk3]

The shot clock has been in the NBA for nearly 70 years. It has been in college for nearly 40 years. I think we're past the trickle down period.

Do you honestly think coaches are going to concentrate on overall skill development because of a shot clock? What will happen is basically the same thing you see now. For the few possessions most games that last longer than 35 seconds you'll just see a bad shot chucked up in the late clock scenario.

The shot clock in HS is a bad idea, IMHO. The play clock thing in football is a silly comparison. Hell, they're not actually "playing". It's not like the defense in football could come steal the ball or anything. In basketball, it's fairly simple. Don't like it, come out and defend. If you can't defend, you probably weren't going to win anyway.

You actually answered why a shot clock is a good idea in your own answer. It will force teams to play defense and guard. You cant sit back in a zone and let the clock run for minutes at a time. The strategy involved now without a shot clock especially late game game situations is just ridiculous. Shot clock will force teams to guard and offense will actually have to execute and not hold the ball and wait for foul. The flow would be better imo.

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

I am in favor of the shot clock. I think it will help the overall development of skill by players. They will have to become better scorers and more efficient shooters. Like anything you see in College/pros eventually trickles down to HS. I understand the well the team we are playing has a 6'10" and team is more athletic. But stalling and holding a ball for extended periods of time proves that team can move ball and handle ball well enough for the more athletic team to take it away....so be more efficient in scoring and passing with the shot clock. Rarely does a team that is way superior ever get stifled by the stall tactic of a inferior team. A shot clock will at least shorten the game up.

Football play clock, baseball now has pitch clock (supposedly with a timer by umpire). I think a shot clock in HS basketball would add to coaches being more aware of offensive efficient and teach kids how to shoot properly at a younger age.

What about the kid that has to play 3 sports in the small schools? You can only develop so much. It allows not as talented teams to shorten the game and stay in the game longer. Football does the same thing. I have seen teams snap the ball at :01 on the clock every down to keep other teams offense off the field. Baseball had 5 hour games being played so you can not compare the sports.

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

You actually answered why a shot clock is a good idea in your own answer. It will force teams to play defense and guard. You cant sit back in a zone and let the clock run for minutes at a time. The strategy involved now without a shot clock especially late game game situations is just ridiculous. Shot clock will force teams to guard and offense will actually have to execute and not hold the ball and wait for foul. The flow would be better imo.

We are talking about late game here. Teams have to make it to that point to have to execute with a shot clock. It would be like a class 2 team playing Cardinal Ritter. Or most teams playing them... It will also force teams to run the score up on people when they are already up 40 points. Honestly, NBA is bad basketball right now. So much one on one and forced shots go up because of the shot clock. Basketball has swung from a team sport to a one on one matchup. Probably why we have struggled against foreign teams recently.

 

[Stryk3]

We are talking about late game here. Teams have to make it to that point to have to execute with a shot clock. It would be like a class 2 team playing Cardinal Ritter. Or most teams playing them... It will also force teams to run the score up on people when they are already up 40 points. Honestly, NBA is bad basketball right now. So much one on one and forced shots go up because of the shot clock. Basketball has swung from a team sport to a one on one matchup. Probably why we have struggled against foreign teams recently.

Struggle against foreign countries? Maybe not as dominant, but to say struggle is craziness. They have shot clocks. Shot clocks have nothing to do with team basketball. US basketball players are more 1 on 1 because we prioritize individual brand over team. International teams play a free flowing style and team basketball no doubt. So there is a shot clock in international play, so how do lesser athletes beat more athletic US teams with a shot clock?

Everything is relative. Players, coaches will change with a shot clock, you adapt and you evolve. As far as 3 sport players. Development comes in all sorts of phases. Not just in your 2 hour practice. There is time, if you're a willing to make the time. Coaching will adapt.

 

[Stryk3]

What about the kid that has to play 3 sports in the small schools? You can only develop so much. It allows not as talented teams to shorten the game and stay in the game longer. Football does the same thing. I have seen teams snap the ball at :01 on the clock every down to keep other teams offense off the field. Baseball had 5 hour games being played so you can not compare the sports.

baseball 5 hour games is nonsense. Never seen a baseball last 5 hours, unless it went 20 innings. Since the pitch clock a typical 3 hour baseball game is now roughly 2:30 hr game. But this is pro ball. You are dealing with commercials. HS you aren't dealing with that.

 

[kaskaskiakid]

You actually answered why a shot clock is a good idea in your own answer. It will force teams to play defense and guard.

Do you mean the way the NBA plays defense? 🤣 Maybe we should stop calling travelling and 3 seconds too since you all want to watch an NBA style game!!!

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

baseball 5 hour games is nonsense. Never seen a baseball last 5 hours, unless it went 20 innings. Since the pitch clock a typical 3 hour baseball game is now roughly 2:30 hr game. But this is pro ball. You are dealing with commercials. HS you aren't dealing with that.

 

[mowesten]

I am in favor of the shot clock. I think it will help the overall development of skill by players. They will have to become better scorers and more efficient shooters. Like anything you see in College/pros eventually trickles down to HS. I understand the well the team we are playing has a 6'10" and team is more athletic. But stalling and holding a ball for extended periods of time proves that team can move ball and handle ball well enough for the more athletic team to take it away....so be more efficient in scoring and passing with the shot clock. Rarely does a team that is way superior ever get stifled by the stall tactic of a inferior team. A shot clock will at least shorten the game up.

Football play clock, baseball now has pitch clock (supposedly with a timer by umpire). I think a shot clock in HS basketball would add to coaches being more aware of offensive efficient and teach kids how to shoot properly at a younger age.

Wrong.

Ask yourself this: have you ever seen a shot clock in Donkey Basketball? No.

I have seen a lot of things in Donkey Basketball, but I ain’t never seen a shot clock.

That should be the standard. What would the donkey do?

 

[Eagles_Ball]

You actually answered why a shot clock is a good idea in your own answer. It will force teams to play defense and guard. You cant sit back in a zone and let the clock run for minutes at a time. The strategy involved now without a shot clock especially late game game situations is just ridiculous. Shot clock will force teams to guard and offense will actually have to execute and not hold the ball and wait for foul. The flow would be better imo.

I feel like I’m talking a mom. Or my wife. How exactly does a shot clock force the defense to guard? You’re going to have to go slow and spell that one out for me.

 

[Stryk3]

I feel like I’m talking a mom. Or my wife. How exactly does a shot clock force the defense to guard? You’re going to have to go slow and spell that one out for me.

I feel like I'm talking to 6 year old child. Shot clock will force offense to actually play offense, which in return will force teams to play defense....or at least attempt to play defense. No shot clock, teams can sit back pack in a zone. If you like slow, boring methodical basketball, where team can take the air out of the ball then you do you.

Bigger athletic team vs. Smaller fundamental team. Both teams could be very methodical on offense, pack in on bigs, force team to shoot from perimeter (because team is a poor shooting team.) Lane is closed up on dribble drives. Or team that is fundamental and handles the ball well that is undersized, just cant get quality shots off due to the quicker more physical team.

At least with a shot clock teams are forced to played offense due to shot clock. Therefore team will ultimately have to guard. If team chooses not to guard because team is a poor perimeter shooting team, you then can at least reward the team on defense because a shot will go up within 45 seconds or 30 seconds depending on shot clock time. This won't reward a team because they are terrible shooting team, they going to have to shot at some point.

 

[CalvinCandie]

You guys thinking adding a shot clock

I feel like I'm talking to 6 year old child. Shot clock will force offense to actually play offense, which in return will force teams to play defense....or at least attempt to play defense. No shot clock, teams can sit back pack in a zone. If you like slow, boring methodical basketball, where team can take the air out of the ball then you do you.

Bigger athletic team vs. Smaller fundamental team. Both teams could be very methodical on offense, pack in on bigs, force team to shoot from perimeter (because team is a poor shooting team.) Lane is closed up on dribble drives. Or team that is fundamental and handles the ball well that is undersized, just cant get quality shots off due to the quicker more physical team.

At least with a shot clock teams are forced to played offense due to shot clock. Therefore team will ultimately have to guard. If team chooses not to guard because team is a poor perimeter shooting team, you then can at least reward the team on defense because a shot will go up within 45 seconds or 30 seconds depending on shot clock time. This won't reward a team because they are terrible shooting team, they going to have to shot at some point.

So many contradictions in this that it's alarming.

 

[Stryk3]

You guys thinking adding a shot clock

So many contradictions in this that it's alarming.

How so? DO explain

 

[MoSooner69]

Or. I am not good enough to take the ball away from you nor is my defense good enough to make your offense speed up... Give me a shot clock to help, so that you have to play my style of basketball instead of yours.

 

[Stryk3]

Or. I am not good enough to take the ball away from you nor is my defense good enough to make your offense speed up... Give me a shot clock to help, so that you have to play my style of basketball instead of yours.

I see your point. I will leave it at this, I have watched and been apart of many HS basketball games for 20+ years. You do have to coach to your teams strengths, and I get that. I just feel a shot clock will force the coaching and the players development on both sides of the ball. I also understand the leaving the HS sports alone and keep it the same way it has always been. I do not think adding a shot clock in HS is a bad thing, I think like anything else change will come and it will be positive. I understand the NO SHOT people and their reasonings why they think it could be bad. But to say Shot clock would be a bad thing in HS hoops is just saying that because they are stubborn or just don't want change.

 

[Expect2Win]

Remember you don't get to choose who comes through the doors to your school. It's great to say that the players have to develop more because of this change. That doesn't always mean that it is possible.
It feels like a considerable expense and hassle for something that might average out to 1 or 2 times a game.
In college and in the pros they theoretically get to choose their players.

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

I see your point. I will leave it at this, I have watched and been apart of many HS basketball games for 20+ years. You do have to coach to your teams strengths, and I get that. I just feel a shot clock will force the coaching and the players development on both sides of the ball. I also understand the leaving the HS sports alone and keep it the same way it has always been. I do not think adding a shot clock in HS is a bad thing, I think like anything else change will come and it will be positive. I understand the NO SHOT people and their reasonings why they think it could be bad. But to say Shot clock would be a bad thing in HS hoops is just saying that because they are stubborn or just don't want change.

I say a shot clock will make bad teams worse. They already take too many bad shots as it is. Without a shot clock actually makes coaches coach more on the defensive side of the ball to get the ball back. They are not bailed out by :24 shot clock.

 

[Missouri Kid]

Or. I am not good enough to take the ball away from you nor is my defense good enough to make your offense speed up... Give me a shot clock to help, so that you have to play my style of basketball instead of yours.

Yep, that is EXACTLY what the shot clock accomplishes. Also, let me hand check instead of move my feet (point of officiating emphasis that lasted about two weeks) and let me back your defenders down by banging or if they stand their ground I draw a foul.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Or. I am not good enough to take the ball away from you nor is my defense good enough to make your offense speed up... Give me a shot clock to help, so that you have to play my style of basketball instead of yours.

Correct. Even a Sooner understands hoops.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

I say a shot clock will make bad teams worse. They already take too many bad shots as it is. Without a shot clock actually makes coaches coach more on the defensive side of the ball to get the ball back. They are not bailed out by :24 shot clock.

Again, someone that understands this whole thing.

 

[MoSooner69]

Correct. Even a Sooner understands hoops.

Hey, Oklahoma is taking a step DOWN in basketball conference.. may or may not help.. we will see next year

 

[Winston Bishop]

Remember you don't get to choose who comes through the doors to your school. It's great to say that the players have to develop more because of this change. That doesn't always mean that it is possible.
It feels like a considerable expense and hassle for something that might average out to 1 or 2 times a game.
In college and in the pros they theoretically get to choose their players.

This statement goes against the entire spirit of this message board. I would rather speculate wildly about Coaches chasing talent, or stepping away because of "pipeline issues". Let's not get caught up in the facts of fluctuating skill levels within high school athletics.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

I feel like I'm talking to 6 year old child. Shot clock will force offense to actually play offense, which in return will force teams to play defense....or at least attempt to play defense. No shot clock, teams can sit back pack in a zone. If you like slow, boring methodical basketball, where team can take the air out of the ball then you do you.

Bigger athletic team vs. Smaller fundamental team. Both teams could be very methodical on offense, pack in on bigs, force team to shoot from perimeter (because team is a poor shooting team.) Lane is closed up on dribble drives. Or team that is fundamental and handles the ball well that is undersized, just cant get quality shots off due to the quicker more physical team.

At least with a shot clock teams are forced to played offense due to shot clock. Therefore team will ultimately have to guard. If team chooses not to guard because team is a poor perimeter shooting team, you then can at least reward the team on defense because a shot will go up within 45 seconds or 30 seconds depending on shot clock time. This won't reward a team because they are terrible shooting team, they going to have to shot at some point.

I'm kinda baffled here. If you're not as good as your opponent you limit the possessions (take longer possession) so the better team doesn't have as many opportunities to score. You're methodical, you search for the best shot, and take it in hopes you make it. You've got to be very good at what you do and when you do it. In short, you've got to be extremely efficient. The only thing a shot clock changes in this scenario is making that bad team shoot it quicker. That's it. Nothing else. If you're going to add a shot clock in HS basketball and not talk about banning zones or at least adding defensive 3 seconds, the only thing you've done is widened the gap between good and bad teams.

I could possibly see adding it in the 4th quarter of games, but that gets pretty wonky. The only reason I say that is it keeps a team that's up by three or four possessions from just completely pulling it out...but honestly, I think that's one of the great strategies of HS basketball.

 

[da bears 25]

I say a shot clock will make bad teams worse. They already take too many bad shots as it is. Without a shot clock actually makes coaches coach more on the defensive side of the ball to get the ball back. They are not bailed out by :24 shot clock.

I truly doubt the shot clock would be 24 seconds. Probably somewhere between 30 and 40 seconds.

So we want to force teams to play defense, but not force them to play offense? Seems logical.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Hey, Oklahoma is taking a step DOWN in basketball conference.. may or may not help.. we will see next year

That's a true story...but honestly the Big12, Big10, and SEC have all pretty much been in the top 4 in the last number of years. I think Ole Miss will be better with Beard. Gators will be better as well. My Cats seem to be trending up if Cal can ever get his swag back. Stack has Vandy competitive. Then you've got Oates at Bama, Pearl at Auburn, Barnes at Tennessee, Buzz at aTm, and Muss at Arky that all have their teams rolling. I honestly think the SEC could be the top conference in the country after everything shakes out this year. There hasn't been a big gap in the top 4 the last few years. Adding OU and Texas will only make the league deeper, though I think Texas is going to backslide. I'm not convinced they made a very good hire.

 

[Stryk3]

I say a shot clock will make bad teams worse. They already take too many bad shots as it is. Without a shot clock actually makes coaches coach more on the defensive side of the ball to get the ball back. They are not bailed out by :24 shot clock.

I truly doubt the shot clock would be 24 seconds. Probably somewhere between 30 and 40 seconds.

So we want to force teams to play defense, but not force them to play offense? Seems logical.

This is where I am at. Id much rather see good offense. Shot clock would force team to actually play offense. If a team plays aggressively on offense because they cant stall, it would force teams to actually play defense even more.

 

[Missouri Kid]

This is where I am at. Id much rather see good offense. Shot clock would force team to actually play offense. If a team plays aggressively on offense because they cant stall, it would force teams to actually play defense even more.

No, what you are saying is you want to see MORE offense which will not necessarily be GOOD offense for some teams. For some skill sets, their best (good) offense is to methodically work the ball and take advantage when the other team gets lazy/or makes a mistake. Conversely , many teams that like to run and gun aren't very good in the half court. If they can't turn you over on the press or trap they lose interest in playing really gritty half court defense, Of course, there are exceptions and those are the really well coached teams

 

[kaskaskiakid]

Interesting concept that the shot clock will miraculously turn my team into an offensive juggernaut when right now half of them couldn't hit the ocean if they were knee deep in it.