Shot Clock
- Thread starter TadQueasy
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It is a podcast MSHSAA started doing. The latest episode is on this deal with shot clock.
Missouri High School Sports and Activities
Missouri High School Sports and Activities
www.mshsaa.org
I'm pretty sure MSHSAA has had the shot clock on an annual questionaire previously and it was soundly defeated.
I am not in favor simply because in high school vs college/pros a team is more likely to have instances where a team is outmanned by the opponent's talent and their only chance is slow the game down.
I am not in favor simply because in high school vs college/pros a team is more likely to have instances where a team is outmanned by the opponent's talent and their only chance is slow the game down.
It is much needed. Nothing worse than watching teams hold the ball. You have a play clock in football you need a shot clock in basketball.
Football teams can play a slow down the game strategy. Running the ball to keep the clock running and taking the max time to snap the ball every play.
Nothing worse than watching a team on a 15 play/9 min drive 3-4 yards at a time!!
I don't think that is a good comparison at all. A running team that grinds out games is still playing. That is a lot different than a team holding the ball at half court for 10 mins. In basketball if you have a 35 second shot clock you could slow things down still and use the whole clock if you wanted. But you can't just stand and do nothing.
If Team 1 is holding the ball. then Team 2 defense should put defensive pressure on them. What if Team 2 has three 6'8"+ players stacked under the goal in a zone, basically standing there doing nothing, and Team 1 has 6'1" center and forwards? I would want to force Team 2 out of the zone by holding the ball until they came out after my team. Do you add the "zone defense rule" like the NBA?
Come on, man, how many times have you seen a HS team hold the ball for 10 mins without shooting? I've seen it once in my life, for the reasons stated above. And the defense refused to come out of the zone and go after the team holding the ball - their choice and fault. A shot clock allows a team to sit back in a zone and force the other team to either get the ball inside and have every shot swatted or chuck up 3's the whole game.
How much accumulated time in football is wasted when the offense is lined up and then the QB steps away from the center and everybody looks to the sideline, and by the time the ball is snapped 10-15 seconds ran off the clock. Do that over the course of the game and they've wasted 10 minutes.
If you dont like a team holding the ball... Take it away from them
I think most of this is much ado about nothing. If you add a 35 second shot clock it is really not going to impact things that much. Most teams score or turn it over much quicker than 35 seconds. But it does eliminate teams stalling for long periods of time. So IMO it is a win-win.
I think the reality is that most people just don't like change. Simliar arguments were had before adding the 3 pt line. Things change as time moves forward. Might as well embrace it. The shot clock is coming to all states sooner rather than later. So we might as well embrace it and make the best of it.
EXACTLY!! Why are we so intent on forcing HS into playing the NBA style of offense? I'm already tired of seeing HS players who can't shoot a lick chucking up 3s from the stands.
This issue really has nothing to do with a NBA offense. No one is forcing anyone to play a NBA style of offense. Teams can and still do that with or without a shot clock. Your issue comes down more to coaching philosophies. Coaches control way more of that than any thing like a shot clock.
But if its much ado about nothing.... Why do it? There is no reason to copy NBA or even the college game.
Because it eliminates stalling. And again most teams score or turn it over way before 35 secs. Copying the NBA has nothing to do with this. That is way more a coaching philsophy problem. Teams are already copying things and bringing it down. This is going to happen whether there is a shot clock or not
If a team can hold the ball a full minute and not turn it over... more power to them. Not many can. I just really feel, if you dont like them stalling, come out of your zone, man up, and take the ball away.
I can understand that point. But I just think this thing is coming, so we might as well adjust to it. I do agree with the point of not liking the trend to copy the things of the NBA. But I think that is a separate discussion and I dont think using or not using a shot clock has anything to do with that.
no one is saying otherwise. And if a shot clock comes to MO, which it is eventually, your job will remain the same.
Its not like you can make a team snap the ball in football. If you do not want them holding the ball, extend out and guard.
No in HS. Example. There was a team rebuilding and was turbo clocked 2 times in regular season. Played them again in Districts (1st round) and lost 33-27. Only chance to win was to spread them out and hold the ball and only take layups. It was like 14-11 at half. Boring as hell, but only way there was even a chance to compete.
We did some statistical analysis last year in-season. The average COC possession was less than 20 seconds. We started by tracking one team specifically and for the entire season (including dead time of a few blowouts) they only had 14 total possessions that lasted longer than 35 seconds without the ball hitting the rim. I think the shot clock will help with end of game situations, but most teams don't "need help" playing faster than 35 seconds.
I am actually torn on this. If they do go shot clock I would like to see it be 45sec.
At the bigger class levels I don't think a 35 shot clock would even be noticed most games. As stated above, a shot clock eliminates an inferior opponent from having any real chance to win games they aren't supposed too. We have all seen what hartville has done over the recent decade beating a lot of the bigger more, talented springfield area teams. They are the best at adjusting play style to give themselves the best chance at winning against a particular opponent. Teams like this are the ones who would be hurt by the shotclock, but like any other sport at any level, the average uninformed fan just wants to see points, and that seems to be the direction the "intelligent" powers that be at Mshsaa are wanting to go.
Heck, I'm tired of seeing my HS team NOT play the clock in the 4th qtr and shoot the other team back in the game.
Oh I know, I was being a little tongue in cheek. I for one cannot stand watching teams stall.
Not only that if a team falls behind now they don’t even have the 1 and 1 to foul. Having a 35 or 40 second shot clock would do the sport some good.
When watching HS games in NW Arkansas with it, it doesn’t come into play that much. But it would stop the BS of stalling.
One point not mentioned - there is a difference between a stall and a slow, deliberate offense. I would say a full stall from the opening tip borders on unethical and violates the spirit of competition, but a great man to man defense can solve that issue. But a HS team should be allowed to use all the time they want to shoot, especially at the end of a game.
The difference in the skill level between two HS teams can be vastly greater and more likely to happen in HS versus college and the NBA. HS teams can't pick their talent....well, that's another topic! If a team is vastly outmanned, there needs to be a strategy for the underdog to have a chance to win by taking time off the clock and limit the huge favorite's possessions. The Dean Smith 4 Corner offense at the end of the game allows a team to protect the lead and force the defense out of the zone.
The shot clock is mostly fan driven for the desire for more points and a faster game, as most rule changes in sports today. I really don't think MO HS coaches will vote for it. It may come eventually. I think it's a mistake. As most of you agree, the HS game has changed already where a shot clock is rarely needed.
The difference in the skill level between two HS teams can be vastly greater and more likely to happen in HS versus college and the NBA. HS teams can't pick their talent....well, that's another topic! If a team is vastly outmanned, there needs to be a strategy for the underdog to have a chance to win by taking time off the clock and limit the huge favorite's possessions. The Dean Smith 4 Corner offense at the end of the game allows a team to protect the lead and force the defense out of the zone.
The shot clock is mostly fan driven for the desire for more points and a faster game, as most rule changes in sports today. I really don't think MO HS coaches will vote for it. It may come eventually. I think it's a mistake. As most of you agree, the HS game has changed already where a shot clock is rarely needed.
I agree a big difference between a stall and a slow offense. I would be good with bumping up the shot clock to 45. I just think we should eliminate the opportunity for teams to stand and hold the ball for long periods of time. I realize it does not happen that often. But I have been to at least 3 games in the last few years where a team held the ball for danged near a whole quarter. I get the defense is partly responsible for that as well. But I just think that should be removed from the playbook. If I want to see kids stand around for long periods of time I can attend a middle school track meet.
I think the vote is going to be really close. If it fails it will be way more because of administrators than because of coaches. From everything I have seen and heard a bigger majority of coaches are in favor of it. But we shall see.
Lets say a team is playing a triangle and 2 defense, and in a fairly competitive game where they find themselves down by 6 in the fourth quarter. Personally with a two possession lead I would have a kid sit at half court until the defense wanted to come out and play man. Why should this opposing team doing this be punished with a shot clock when one team refuses to play defense? Everyone gets mad at the offensive team in these situations, when its actually its the defensive team that is refusing to play the game. Especially at small schools it shouldn't come down to some 4th option player (that probably isn't very skilled) throwing something up at the end of a shot clock to allow this defensive team to get back in the game.
The argument can also be made why should a good defensive team be punished by not having a shot clock because one team refuses to play offense. Purpose of defense is to make it difficult for the other team to score not to have to take the ball away from the other team. I am in favor of the shot clock I think it makes games better at the end and doesn't change most games much. I have been an assistant coach or head coach for almost 20 years at class 1-4 schools mostly 1 and 2 and I think it makes the games better. If you only have 2 players who the other team has to guard you need to coach the other ones up and teach them to score...isn't that what we say you need to do defensively when someone holds the ball coach em up and go take it away.
If you have been coaching for 20 years then you should know that a 5 guy inside the 3pt line defense can't be the only defense in your bag. Any decent coach has a couple disruptive trapping/extended style defenses that if executed correctly would not allow a team to stand and hold the ball(Most Class 1/2 schools don't have more than 2-3 kids that can affectively pass/dribble). A shot clock helps the team that is supposed to win a game, and eliminates a strategy that a coach of an inferior team could use to keep a game close enough to win in the fourth quarter. Adding a shot clock because some coaches can't coach defense outside of their comfort zone is not a good enough reason to add it.
Teaching a defensive scheme, and creating a scorer are not remotely comparable. You can become a good defensive team over the course of a season. Becoming a great scorer happens in an empty gym during the summer, and not many kids will put the work in for that.
No dog in this fight, but here’s my two cents.
I agree…if the shot clock doesn’t happen now, eventually it will, so might as well get it going now.
Sounds like large/medium schools vs small schools. Large/medium have more depth while most small schools do not. Majority rules…implement the shot clock.
We’ve all gone through rule changes for years, some we like, others we didn’t , but we’ve all adjusted and have lived with them. It’ll be the same for the shot clock, whether it’s next year or 3 years from now, but it’s coming!!
I agree…if the shot clock doesn’t happen now, eventually it will, so might as well get it going now.
Sounds like large/medium schools vs small schools. Large/medium have more depth while most small schools do not. Majority rules…implement the shot clock.
We’ve all gone through rule changes for years, some we like, others we didn’t , but we’ve all adjusted and have lived with them. It’ll be the same for the shot clock, whether it’s next year or 3 years from now, but it’s coming!!
Spot on Calvin!
Objection, Your Honor!! Unsubstantiated fact not in evidence!!
I don’t understand a few things
1. The idea that an inferior team can “slow play” down to try and win is just wrong. If a team is inferior than my team and tries to hold it I am just going to press the crap out of them steal the ball and go score. The only time a superior team sits back against an inferior team is when they are up by a lot. Then it just looks stupid when the inferior team holds the ball because they are not competing.
2. Kids go out to play basketball. They don’t go out to play keep away. What are you teaching them when you say we are not as good as the other team so we are going to hold the ball and not try to score. It is 35 seconds. Again if I was coaching the better team see point 1.
3. If you really are an inferior team then the shot clock should actually help you also. You are probably inferior because you don’t have the offense to score enough. So slow the pace down on defense. Make the better team force up poor shots because they are running out of time in the shot clock. I saw this exact thing last summer in a girls game. “Inferior” team made sure at least 3 were back in transition to limit easy transition buckets. Then they played a really good zone for about 30 seconds. Then the “better” team would have to just shoot a low % outside shot. “Inferior” team stayed in the game with this strategy.
NFHS made the Shot Clock allowable a few years ago. This year they changed the foul and FT rules. I bet within 2-3 years they will require the Shot Clock. It is coming so why wait.
1. The idea that an inferior team can “slow play” down to try and win is just wrong. If a team is inferior than my team and tries to hold it I am just going to press the crap out of them steal the ball and go score. The only time a superior team sits back against an inferior team is when they are up by a lot. Then it just looks stupid when the inferior team holds the ball because they are not competing.
2. Kids go out to play basketball. They don’t go out to play keep away. What are you teaching them when you say we are not as good as the other team so we are going to hold the ball and not try to score. It is 35 seconds. Again if I was coaching the better team see point 1.
3. If you really are an inferior team then the shot clock should actually help you also. You are probably inferior because you don’t have the offense to score enough. So slow the pace down on defense. Make the better team force up poor shots because they are running out of time in the shot clock. I saw this exact thing last summer in a girls game. “Inferior” team made sure at least 3 were back in transition to limit easy transition buckets. Then they played a really good zone for about 30 seconds. Then the “better” team would have to just shoot a low % outside shot. “Inferior” team stayed in the game with this strategy.
NFHS made the Shot Clock allowable a few years ago. This year they changed the foul and FT rules. I bet within 2-3 years they will require the Shot Clock. It is coming so why wait.
OK, then consider your superior team has far superior height , 6'8" 6'9" 6'8" across the frontline and packed in a zone. My inferior team is small and cannot score from the inside and forced to shoot long jumpers. My inferior team has to spread the floor and "slow down" play to force your superior team away from the basket. Now consider your tall team is slow and cannot play man-to-man or trap, and my inferior smaller team has quick ballhandlers who can beat your taller players off the dribble. You're not going to want spread your defense.
My strategy would be to get your height away from the basket. But your superior team can just sit back in the zone and wait for :35 seconds and my inferior team is forced to shoot a long jumper. Without a shot clock, your superior team is forced to come out of the zone or let the clock run.
The shot clock takes the end of game strategy. A team should be able to protect a 4th qtr lead and not forced to shoot the other team back in the game.
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Well I hate to break this to you, but the shot clock is coming. Maybe not with this particular vote, but it will be here relatively soon. So you can be upset about it or adapt to it. I like how it changes the strategy of end of game situations. I think it will make coaching even more important.
