Public/Private debate

[bullitpdq68]

Is that why Monett only had 3 wins this year?

Well that and Monett's Population is only 9,900 all all of our kids already attend our public school!! We just cannot go out and hire some smuck off the street and magically get 9 D-1 players in that process, like a school in St Louis can. But hey you keep telling yourself it is all legal and fair.

 

[BoosterBosko]

No one on my side of the argument has to 'try' anything.
We've all established that the occasional kid ends up somewhere with athletics being their reason for being there. Occasional.
No one else on this thread is bussing in entire teams.
If MSHSAA wants the new norm of high school football in Missouri to be about donors buying teams? They'll ignore this.
And, it will tarnish what all MoSports posters so greatly enjoy.

NWB--- Out.

I dont know about these MO booster clubs, but I know darn well the booster club in Ampipe does NOT buy their team! How do I know that? Im the president of it!!! We grow our teams through hard work, determination, and tough nosed football!!

 

[crusader_2]

Well that and Monett's Population is only 9,900 all all of our kids already attend our public school!! We just cannot go out and hire some smuck off the street and magically get 9 D-1 players in that process, like a school in St Louis can. But hey you keep telling yourself it is all legal.

Go cry to MSHSAA. Even a blind squirrel will eventually find a nut. Enjoy basketball season.

 

[NorthWestBleachers]

I
dont know about these MO booster clubs, but I know darn well the booster club in Ampipe does NOT buy their team! How do I know that? Im the president of it!!! We grow our teams through hard work, determination, and tough nosed football!!

GET IT BOSKO!!!

 

[crusader_2]

I dont know about these MO booster clubs, but I know darn well the booster club in Ampipe does NOT buy their team! How do I know that? Im the president of it!!! We grow our teams through hard work, determination, and tough nosed football!!

Where's Ampipe? Is that a city?

 

[bullitpdq68]

I dont know about these MO booster clubs, but I know darn well the booster club in Ampipe does NOT buy their team! How do I know that? Im the president of it!!! We grow our teams through hard work, determination, and tough nosed football!!

I like that Bosko!! home grown talent!! Go Ampipe!

 

[BoosterBosko]

Where's Ampipe? Is that a city?

Ampipe is a city in rural Pennsylvania. Have you heard of the Doc Guys?

 

[Majost]

Here's a logical solution: Why not adjust the multiplier from 1.35 each cycle based on a ratio of the number of state championships private schools win versus the number of championships that private schools were expected to have won based on random chance?

For example:

Class 6 Football has 4 private schools out of 32 total schools. Therefore, it would be expected that private schools would win the state championship 0.25 times over a two year cycle. Last year, Kirkwood (public) won the class 6 State Championship. Let's say that Saint Louis Christian Brothers College (private) wins the state championship this year. Private schools would have then won 1.00 State Championships out of an expected 0.25 State Championships or four times as many state championships as expected. You would then multiply 1.35 X 4 to get a new multiplier of 5.40. Now, obviously a small sample size is going to skew that number quite a bit so you would add up all of the state championships won by private schools in all boys and girls sports and then divide the number of championships won by the number of expected championships won for your new multiplication factor. I will throw out somewhat arbitrary numbers to show what this would look like:

2016-2018 Cycle:
11.00 state championships won
5.50 state championships expected
11/5.5 = 2
2 X 1.35 = 2.7
New multiplier = 2.70

2018-2020 Cycle:
9.00 state championships won
6.00 state championships expected
9/6 = 1.5
1.5 X 2.7 = 4.05
New multiplier = 4.05

2020-2022 Cycle:
4.00 state championships won
5.33 state championships expected
4/5.33 = 0.75
0.75 X 4.05 = 3.03
New multiplier = 3.03

And so on. Eventually, you would likely reach a better equilibrium than the current 1.35. Private schools would likely continue to be very successful in some sports, but not successful at all in other sports, but this is true of most any school. Every school has sports that they are successful in and are not successful in. This would just level the playing field between private and public schools.

Should there be a reduced multiplier for all those private schools that suck at sports? Because your only basing your multiplier on championship caliber type of teams.

 

[bullitpdq68]

Go cry to MSHSAA. Even a blind squirrel will eventually find a nut. Enjoy basketball season.

 

[Majost]

From any of the AD's I have talked to. This doesn't have a chance of passing. Sorry to bust your bubble

 

[bullitpdq68]

From any of the AD's I have talked to. This doesn't have a chance of passing. Sorry to bust your bubble

 

[NorthWestBleachers]

Pass? Is there a referendum?
No one is expecting Batman anytime soon.
Some of us just aren't willing to pretend it isn't happening.

You do ask a good question Majost.
If a private school is walking the line and struggles to compete already? They might REALLY be limping with a multiplier.

HOWEVER ... If ALL privates are in it together? In the 'big school' 'small school' system mentioned above??? It's all cool.

 

[Majost]

Pass? Is there a referendum?
No one is expecting Batman anytime soon.
Some of us just aren't willing to pretend it isn't happening.

You do ask a good question Majost.
If a private school is walking the line and struggles to compete already? They might REALLY be limping with a multiplier.

There is a petition. I was just saying, if it ever came up for a vote again. AD's are very aware of the petition going around. I would bet there are more private schools that stink at sports than those that are good in any given sport.

 

[NorthWestBleachers]

There is a petition. I was just saying, if it ever came up for a vote again. AD's are very aware of the petition going around. I would bet there are more private schools that stink at sports than those that are good in any given sport.

Now that you say that? I think I DID hear there was a petition.
I'm so sure NOTHING will change? I haven't even rushed right out to sign it!
I think whether or not any school is good at anything is a priority thing.
We don't disagree on that. It's the x's and o's ... the game plan on getting there that we would disagree on.
Good talk!

 

[Bleeding Red and Black]

A comment in the St Louis Dispatch story about forfeits mentioned 2 million dollars worth of scholarships that had been awarded to Trinity from various Catholic organizations. The poster said the money was to be awarded to low income Catholic kids so that they could get an education at a catholic school. Instead they went out and found really good football players and awarded them scholarships. As they said, it was legal but sure not right.

 

[LHSTiger81]

 

[crusader_2]

A comment in the St Louis Dispatch story about forfeits mentioned 2 million dollars worth of scholarships that had been awarded to Trinity from various Catholic organizations. The poster said the money was to be awarded to low income Catholic kids so that they could get an education at a catholic school. Instead they went out and found really good football players and awarded them scholarships. As they said, it was legal but sure not right.

You're assuming that the statement made about $2 million being used for scholarships for football players is true. That wasn't reported by the reporter that wrote the article. It was what an anonymous poster said was happening, but that hasn't been substantiated. You don't need proof to have an opinion, of course ... but random statements aren't the same as facts.

 

[Bleeding Red and Black]

You're assuming that the statement made about $2 million being used for scholarships for football players is true. That wasn't reported by the reporter that wrote the article. It was what an anonymous poster said was happening, but that hasn't been substantiated. You don't need proof to have an opinion, of course ... but random statements aren't the same as facts.

I never said it was fact. I was simply posting what I had read and was seeing if anyone else had any info on it. I will also say they didn't comment anonymously, they posted their name and city. I'm going to be honest here and say that nothing you post is going to change my mind about the recruiting that's going on. I don't think all private schools do that, but when you have 16 new names on your roster that weren't on the roster the year before and your a class 2 school something is going on.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

You're assuming that the statement made about $2 million being used for scholarships for football players is true. That wasn't reported by the reporter that wrote the article. It was what an anonymous poster said was happening, but that hasn't been substantiated. You don't need proof to have an opinion, of course ... but random statements aren't the same as facts.

How much are the tuitions at Trinity and Lutheran North you ask?

9k per year at Trinity. Lutheran North won't even put their fees on the site.

I'm sure all those inner city kids parents just came up with 36k. Pay for play and it's blatant.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

Believe what you want to. The rules are the rules.

What crusader team do you support? Since you send your kids to public schools and all.

 

[crusader_2]

I never said it was fact. I was simply posting what I had read and was seeing if anyone else had any info on it. I will also say they didn't comment anonymously, they posted their name and city. I'm going to be honest here and say that nothing you post is going to change my mind about the recruiting that's going on. I don't think all private schools do that, but when you have 16 new names on your roster that weren't on the roster the year before and your a class 2 school something is going on.

Does anyone really expect to change anyone's mind in an online message board? You and I are both free to believe why we choose ... and I've got zero problems with that, whether your opinion is based on feelings, facts or anything else you read or hear about. You don't even NEED data to form an opinion, which makes throwing out arbitrary numbers and statements so much more unnecessary. Is it unreasonable to challenge statements like "some guy online said $2 million was going to athletes" or "a school has 16 new kids on their team in Class 2" when someone uses it as though it was fact?

 

[Bleeding Red and Black]

Does anyone really expect to change anyone's mind in an online message board? You and I are both free to believe why we choose ... and I've got zero problems with that, whether your opinion is based on feelings, facts or anything else you read or hear about. You don't even NEED data to form an opinion, which makes throwing out arbitrary numbers and statements to unnecessary. Is it unreasonable to challenge statements like "some guy online said $2 million was going to athletes" or "a school has 16 new kids on their team in Class 2" when someone uses it as though it was fact?

Heck yes I try to change opinions, why else would I post!!

As for the 16 new kids.....pretty easy to see if that's a fact or not. Simply look at the roster. A public class 2 school is rarely going to add 16 new players the next year unless they're freshman. We never have 16 new kids suddenly move into the district.

 

[crusader_2]

Heck yes I try to change opinions, why else would I post!!

As for the 16 new kids.....pretty easy to see if that's a fact or not. Simply look at the roster. A public class 2 school is rarely going to add 16 new players the next year unless they're freshman. We never have 16 new kids suddenly move into the district.

You're right. As far as I can tell, Trinity doesn't have 16 transfers to their roster. Even last year, there were only 3 kids that I recall having transferred in. The highly recruited kids on their roster this year are allkids that enrolled as freshmen. I think there are only 5 seniors on this year's roster and none were transfers.

 

[Bleeding Red and Black]

You're right. As far as I can tell, Trinity doesn't have 16 transfers to their roster. Even last year, there were only 3 kids that I recall having transferred in. The highly recruited kids on their roster this year are allkids that enrolled as freshmen. I think there are only 5 seniors on this year's roster and none were transfers.

I had my information where I got this from but it's not in front of me. If I'm wrong I will apologize, but my information came from a pretty reliable source.

 

[stl17]

Trinity does not have 16 new players, the vast majority of their players come from Patterson's classes, not transfers. Its common practice in STL for schools to bring in coaches with talent that follows either from coaching unregulated junior league football, or unregulated private coaching. STL is an island separate from the rest of the state where opposing players and opposing coaches follow each other on social media to praise each other up and their individual accolades over team success; its a STL "brotherhood" tied to handlers, aka "coaches", not communities. Can you imagine Coach Bailey or Coach Rod on twitter chumming it up with the WR from Carthage or RB from Monett?? The Wentzville Holt HC went off on twitter last week after watching all these schools poaching their middle school feeder team after a game, and it struck a nerve all across the east side. This is going to be a big deal this offseason, especially after the forfeits.

 

[carthagefan2006]

Should there be a reduced multiplier for all those private schools that suck at sports? Because your only basing your multiplier on championship caliber type of teams.

No, you shouldn't place a team in a class based on the caliber of the team. Otherwise, you would end up with schools like Carthage being:

Class 6 Boys Soccer
Class 5 Football
Class 4 Volleyball
Class 3 Softball
Class 2 Boys Basketball
Class 1 Girls Soccer

(Most sports have far fewer than six classes, but you catch my drift)

Joplin Thomas Jefferson Independent Day has won 4 out of the last 5 Scholar Bowl state championships, but they're not a threat to win a championship in Girls Basketball anytime soon. Each school is going to have its own strengths and weaknesses, some more than others. My point is that the competitive disadvantage that public schools have against private schools should be neutralized.

 

[MoSooner69]

Reading through this, I am still trying to figure out what the Monett score from Friday Night has to do with the fact that two STL schools hand built rosters to try and beat Lamar? Is it a sign of having no real argument to the facts at hand presented by bullit?

 

[Duck_walk]

My question is, what is the harm of separating public and private schools in the playoff system? Who does it hurt? Is it expensive? No. What is the drawback?

 

[crusader_2]

Trinity does not have 16 new players, the vast majority of their players come from Patterson's classes, not transfers. Its common practice in STL for schools to bring in coaches with talent that follows either from coaching unregulated junior league football, or unregulated private coaching. STL is an island separate from the rest of the state where opposing players and opposing coaches follow each other on social media to praise each other up and their individual accolades over team success; its a STL "brotherhood" tied to handlers, aka "coaches", not communities. Can you imagine Coach Bailey or Coach Rod on twitter chumming it up with the WR from Carthage or RB from Monett?? The Wentzville Holt HC went off on twitter last week after watching all these schools poaching their middle school feeder team after a game, and it struck a nerve all across the east side. This is going to be a big deal this offseason, especially after the forfeits.

It's interesting that you used the term "poaching" to describe families making the decision to enroll their kids in schools other than the public one in their municipality. Kids don't belong to a school or municipality. It's fine to not like that you don't get to coach a talented kid that you covet, but it's NOT your kid. It's the family's choice ... as it should be.

I'm sure it'd be nice for you to imagine high school coaches and players having a hostile attitude toward one another, but I don't see anything wrong with coaches being friendly with kids. Maybe that's one of the reasons Coach Bailey and Coach Rod don't have as many kids being recruited to play in college?

 

[crusader_2]

Reading through this, I am still trying to figure out what the Monett score from Friday Night has to do with the fact that two STL schools hand built rosters to try and beat Lamar? Is it a sign of having no real argument to the facts at hand presented by bullit?

What facts are you presenting? MSHSAA has rules governing transfers and eligibility. Either you don't understand them, don't like them or don't trust that MSHSAA is following them. Whether you believe one or all three doesn't make your feelings become facts. Families are allowed to transfer their kids to another school. In STL, there are multiple schools to choose from. To feign moral superiority because you live in a town with only one high school and pretend that because of it another school is "doing it wrong" is ludicrous. You can speculate all you want to but not liking or understanding MSHSAA's rules doesn't mean that a school is cheating. It doesn't matter if you accept it or not. Don't like the rules? Go cry to MSHSAA.

 

[ChaoticFanatic]

I like the fact that more often than not the public schools beat the private schools regardless of what advantages they have.

I see no point in separating between public and private. You’re just telling the public school kids: “our teams not good enough”

Hell, look at John Burroughs when Zeke was there. 3 trips to the dome, three losses to public schools.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

What facts are you presenting? MSHSAA has rules governing transfers and eligibility. Either you don't understand them, don't like them or don't trust that MSHSAA is following them. Whether you believe one or all three doesn't make your feelings become facts. Families are allowed to transfer their kids to another school. In STL, there are multiple schools to choose from. To feign moral superiority because you live in a town with only one high school and pretend that because of it another school is "doing it wrong" is ludicrous. You can speculate all you want to but not liking or understanding MSHSAA's rules doesn't mean that a school is cheating. It doesn't matter if you accept it or not. Don't like the rules? Go cry to MSHSAA.

who pays the 9k tuition for all these players?

 

[J.Moxon]

What facts are you presenting? MSHSAA has rules governing transfers and eligibility. Either you don't understand them, don't like them or don't trust that MSHSAA is following them. Whether you believe one or all three doesn't make your feelings become facts. Families are allowed to transfer their kids to another school. In STL, there are multiple schools to choose from. To feign moral superiority because you live in a town with only one high school and pretend that because of it another school is "doing it wrong" is ludicrous. You can speculate all you want to but not liking or understanding MSHSAA's rules doesn't mean that a school is cheating. It doesn't matter if you accept it or not. Don't like the rules? Go cry to MSHSAA.

This is fun.....

 

[NorthWestBleachers]

No, you shouldn't place a team in a class based on the caliber of the team. Otherwise, you would end up with schools like Carthage being:

Class 6 Boys Soccer
Class 5 Football
Class 4 Volleyball
Class 3 Softball
Class 2 Boys Basketball
Class 1 Girls Soccer

(Most sports have far fewer than six classes, but you catch my drift)

Joplin Thomas Jefferson Independent Day has won 4 out of the last 5 Scholar Bowl state championships, but they're not a threat to win a championship in Girls Basketball anytime soon. Each school is going to have its own strengths and weaknesses, some more than others. My point is that the competitive disadvantage that public schools have against private schools should be neutralized.

Very well said!

 

[NorthWestBleachers]

It's interesting that you used the term "poaching" to describe families making the decision to enroll their kids in schools other than the public one in their municipality. Kids don't belong to a school or municipality. It's fine to not like that you don't get to coach a talented kid that you covet, but it's NOT your kid. It's the family's choice ... as it should be.

I'm sure it'd be nice for you to imagine high school coaches and players having a hostile attitude toward one another, but I don't see anything wrong with coaches being friendly with kids. Maybe that's one of the reasons Coach Bailey and Coach Rod don't have as many kids being recruited to play in college?

It is my understanding that Coach Rod and Coach Bailey have fewer of those kids playing college ball [and, they have plenty playing college ball] because they are interested in building TEAMS instead of individuals. Just watching the local news it's easy to see that one of 6? or 7? kids per team could have a break out night at any time. They play unselfishly. It's been a winning strategy for them.

 

[J.Moxon]

It is my understanding that Coach Rod and Coach Bailey have fewer of those kids playing college ball [and, they have plenty playing college ball] because they are interested in building TEAMS instead of individuals. Just watching the local news it's easy to see that one of 6? or 7? kids per team could have a break out night at any time. They play unselfishly. It's been a winning strategy for them.

 

[crusader_2]

who pays the 9k tuition for all these players?

I don't know and you don't either. How do families at any other private school pay their kids' tuition?

 

[crusader_2]

It is my understanding that Coach Rod and Coach Bailey have fewer of those kids playing college ball [and, they have plenty playing college ball] because they are interested in building TEAMS instead of individuals. Just watching the local news it's easy to see that one of 6? or 7? kids per team could have a break out night at any time. They play unselfishly. It's been a winning strategy for them.

Lutheran North and Trinity are both undefeated and their kids manage to somehow be offered scholarships, so it seems to be working for them, too. Families that prefer their kids to be coached by Rod and Bailey send them to play for them. Families that prefer their kids to be coached by Reed and Patterson send them to play for them. It's called CHOICE. I encourage every parent to exercise it.

 

[bullitpdq68]

Reading through this, I am still trying to figure out what the Monett score from Friday Night has to do with the fact that two STL schools hand built rosters to try and beat Lamar? Is it a sign of having no real argument to the facts at hand presented by bullit?

Sooner, it comes down to the fact I struck a nerve with ....... you fill in the blank.

 

[J.Moxon]

Lutheran North and Trinity are both undefeated and their kids manage to somehow be offered scholarships, so it seems to be working for them, too. Families that prefer their kids to be coached by Rod and Bailey send them to play for them. Families that prefer their kids to be coached by Reed and Patterson send them to play for them. It's called CHOICE. I encourage every parent to exercise it.

The Terminator agrees with Crusader_2