Public/Private debate

[Veer2Eternity]

Volleyball final 4 has more private schools than public.

Class 1
Valle
Northland

Class 2
St. Michaels
St. Pius

Class 3
ICW
lutheran south
helias

Class 4
St. Thomas
St. Joe Academy
St. Theresa's

Does anyone know the percentage of public/private schools competing in the sport?

 

[JNreturns]

Missouri doesn't have enough schools to make separate parochial divisions. In Class 6 in football there are a handful, DeSmet, SLU, CBC and Rock. If I'm missing a few, there can't be more than two more than that?

 

[Veer2Eternity]

Missouri doesn't have enough schools to make separate parochial divisions. In Class 6 in football there are a handful, DeSmet, SLU, CBC and Rock. If I'm missing a few, there can't be more than two more than that?

Make 2 divisions. Top 50% of private schools are large class and smallest are small class. It's not complicated.

 

[JNreturns]

Make 2 divisions. Top 50% of private schools are large class and smallest are small class. It's not complicated.

In football, that might make sense. Will it happen? No. Big Class would be CBC v. Rock about every other year.

 

[panther72]

There is no St. Thomas in Missouri. It closed over 20 years ago.

 

[JNreturns]

This one just opened in the KC area recently. http://smacatholic.org/

 

[rebelman54]

I'm sure there will be a post from someone soon that says "stop whining, to be the best you have to beat the best, just work harder and get better to beat the private school kids". If that's the case, and the only real factor is school population size, then why in college do we not put Duke(14,832 students) against UMSL (16,719 students).....because they have different rules that govern scholarships, etc. The point I'm trying to make is while not all privates recruit actively, they still play by a different rule set then the publics do.

 

[JNreturns]

I'm sure there will be a post from someone soon that says "stop whining, to be the best you have to beat the best, just work harder and get better to beat the private school kids". If that's the case, and the only real factor is school population size, then why in college do we not put Duke(14,832 students) against UMSL (16,719 students).....because they have different rules that govern scholarships, etc. The point I'm trying to make is while not all privates recruit actively, they still play by a different rule set then the publics do.

In basketball it makes the most sense to have a separate division. If you were to experiment with it, THAT would be the sport to start with. Easier to recruit for 5 spots than 22 (11).

 

[Veer2Eternity]

There is no St. Thomas in Missouri. It closed over 20 years ago.

That should be St. Dominic.

 

[JNreturns]

Out of the top 4 finishers in both Class 4/5 in basketball the past five years: 14 teams have been private. 26 public.

 

[USArmyMike]

I have said it before and I will say it again. Private schools do not dominate the state championships enough to split private and public schools. Its just this everyone deserves a trophy mentality. Sure there needs to be a few tweaks, but that it. I think the multiplier should be 2 and no private school should be in the smallest class. However, Public schools recruit as well.

 

[JNreturns]

After the private/public split is made.
Big Class Champs. How exciting.
2020 Rock
2021 Rock
2022 CBC
2023 Rock
2024 CBC
2025 CBC
2026 Rock
2027 Rock

Small Class
2020 Trinity
2021 Trinity
2022 Trinity
2023 Valle
2024 Trinity
2025 Trinity
2026 Trinity

 

[Veer2Eternity]

I have said it before and I will say it again. Private schools do not dominate the state championships enough to split private and public schools. Its just this everyone deserves a trophy mentality. Sure there needs to be a few tweaks, but that it. I think the multiplier should be 2 and no private school should be in the smallest class. However, Public schools recruit as well.

Last year was the first time since at least 2009 that Valle hasn't been playing for class 1 state title.
5 titles in 6 years. CLEARLY that's not domination.

 

[Majost]

Out of the top 4 finishers in both Class 4/5 in basketball the past five years: 14 teams have been private. 26 public.

I don't see a lot of people trying to respond to your post here.

 

[Sleepless_in_Jefferson_County]

I have said it before and I will say it again. Private schools do not dominate the state championships enough to split private and public schools. Its just this everyone deserves a trophy mentality. Sure there needs to be a few tweaks, but that it. I think the multiplier should be 2 and no private school should be in the smallest class. However, Public schools recruit as well.

They may not "dominate", but they show up and win a disproportionate amount of times.

 

[Majost]

They may not "dominate", but they show up and win a disproportionate amount of times.

What about what the guy said about the class 4 and 5 basketball ratio. I would think the reason for the multipliers was to try to keep it even. Which is 50% What do you go with on the 50%. Who won state championships? How many make it to the final fours? How many win the districts? Average wins overall during the season and post season, private vs public

 

[JNreturns]

I don't see a lot of people trying to respond to your post here.

People already have their pre-concieved narrative not founded on objectivity or fact. Private schools can recruit. "Private schools have advantage = unfair." They say. Doesn't matter if they use multipliers or try to do things to make competition more fair.

 

[crusader_2]

People already have their pre-concieved narrative not founded on objectivity or fact. Private schools can recruit. Private schools have advantage = unfair. Doesn't matter if they use multipliers or try to do things to make competition more fair.

People choose to live where they do, in part, because of the choice of schools they are afforded. If a family chooses to move to Kirkwood so their kid can go to school and compete on their teams, how is that any different than if they chose to live somewhere and chose to pay tuition to a private school? Whether it was because they interviewed or saw a billboard or attended an open house, are the criteria families use to pick a school for their kid any different if it's a public vs a private school?

 

[rebelman54]

What about what the guy said about the class 4 and 5 basketball ratio. I would think the reason for the multipliers was to try to keep it even. Which is 50% What do you go with on the 50%. Who won state championships? How many make it to the final fours? How many win the districts? Average wins overall during the season and post season, private vs public

Just my opinion, but when you have well under 50% of the total teams being private, then winning 50%(or more) of the districts being won by privates, or final four appearances, etc. would be skewed towards privates having an advantage, whatever that advantage may be.

 

[Graphic Edge Guy]

That should be St. Dominic.

How can St. Dominic be in Class 4 for volleyball...did they request to play up?

 

[rebelman54]

People choose to live where they do, in part, because of the choice of schools they are afforded. If a family chooses to move to Kirkwood so their kid can go to school and compete on their teams, how is that any different than if they chose to live somewhere and chose to pay tuition to a private school? Whether it was because they interviewed or saw a billboard or attended an open house, are the criteria families use to pick a school for their kid any different if it's a public vs a private school?

I will disagree with you that most people choose to live where they do because of school choice. While that may be in the more urban areas, in a lot of the state, people live where they live because that's where they grew up and their family is from.

Again, just my opinion here, the problem becomes when the school pays tuition for that student based on athletic prowess and can also reject having other students going there based on other reasons(not saying they do, but they can). In a public school we can't pay for a student's tuition or pay for a student's room and board. Do we have students that move into our district? Yes. But they pay for their own housing and they pay taxes in that district. We also have all students that live in our district.

I know that there are private school attendees that pay their own tuition, but I also know that there are scholarships that are given to other students. Again, I'm not saying this is a bad thing or wrong, just that the private schools do have an advantage in that situation.

 

[Treadmill]

I'm sure there will be a post from someone soon that says "stop whining, to be the best you have to beat the best, just work harder and get better to beat the private school kids". If that's the case, and the only real factor is school population size, then why in college do we not put Duke(14,832 students) against UMSL (16,719 students).....because they have different rules that govern scholarships, etc. The point I'm trying to make is while not all privates recruit actively, they still play by a different rule set then the publics do.

Also, those same guys who say "stop whining, to be the best you have to beat the best, just work harder and get better to beat the private school kids" never advocate for elimination of classes and just go with one state champion for the entire state. If the answer is to just work harder and get better, let's have Marceline play CBC. If you're going to segregate schools by enrollment to make it more fair/competitive, why not carve out privates, too?

 

[blue and white pride]

Rule #1 in life......LIfe is not fair. Never has been, never will be.

 

[crusader_2]

I will disagree with you that most people choose to live where they do because of school choice. While that may be in the more urban areas, in a lot of the state, people live where they live because that's where they grew up and their family is from.

Again, just my opinion here, the problem becomes when the school pays tuition for that student based on athletic prowess and can also reject having other students going there based on other reasons(not saying they do, but they can). In a public school we can't pay for a student's tuition or pay for a student's room and board. Do we have students that move into our district? Yes. But they pay for their own housing and they pay taxes in that district. We also have all students that live in our district.

I know that there are private school attendees that pay their own tuition, but I also know that there are scholarships that are given to other students. Again, I'm not saying this is a bad thing or wrong, just that the private schools do have an advantage in that situation.

Here's the thing. Whether families choose a school for family or because it's where they grew up, it's still a choice. I don't know how any rule is going to control or regulate that choice. The argument that people use about private schools awarding tuition assistance based upon athletic ability is countered by the argument that public schools look the other way on residency requirements for athletic ability.

According to the rules, neither is supposed to happen ... yet it's alleged that they both do. If you throw a rock at a pack of dogs, the only one that yelps is the one that gets hit. Teams that are winning don't participate in this argument. It's only an issue when a team isn't winning and they're looking to point a finger to explain why.

 

[USArmyMike]

Last year was the first time since at least 2009 that Valle hasn't been playing for class 1 state title.
5 titles in 6 years. CLEARLY that's not domination.

Oh boy I better be careful with all your smarts. You picked a whole one private school to prove your point. What about Lamar then? Webb City? Oh yeah, those are public schools that don't validate your point. Like I said, because clearly you missed it, there needs to be some tweaking done, but private schools do not dominate the state enough for a split.

 

[JNreturns]

Rule #1 in life......LIfe is not fair. Never has bee, never will be.

That pretty much says it all. And they are not going to carve out private vs. public in Missouri.

 

[wcfanfourever]

After the private/public split is made.
Big Class Champs. How exciting.
2020 Rock
2021 Rock
2022 CBC
2023 Rock
2024 CBC
2025 CBC
2026 Rock
2027 Rock

Small Class
2020 Trinity
2021 Trinity
2022 Trinity
2023 Valle
2024 Trinity
2025 Trinity
2026 Trinity

Who cares ???? Let them go their own way and good riddance

 

[wcfanfourever]

Oh boy I better be careful with all your smarts. You picked a whole one private school to prove your point. What about Lamar then? Webb City? Oh yeah, those are public schools that don't validate your point. Like I said, because clearly you missed it, there needs to be some tweaking done, but private schools do not dominate the state enough for a split.

Talking football maybe,,,but look at all of the country club sports and private schools dominate

 

[JNreturns]

Who cares ???? Let them go their own way and good riddance

More trophies for everyone...yay!!!

 

[crusader_2]

Who cares ???? Let them go their own way and good riddance

Are there private schools in Missouri lobbying for a public/private split?

 

[DHS_Strong]

Volleyball final 4 has more private schools than public.

Class 1
Valle
Northland

Class 2
St. Michaels
St. Pius

Class 3
ICW
lutheran south
helias

Class 4
St. Thomas
St. Joe Academy
St. Theresa's

Does anyone know the percentage of public/private schools competing in the sport?

Looks like this year that Private's make up about 63% of teams in volleyball final four, while they only make up around 15% of the teams that play volleyball.

 

[JNreturns]

Looks like this year that Private's make up about 63% of teams in volleyball final four, while they only make up around 15% of the teams that play volleyball.

Golf: From 2000 to 2010

44 State champions Class 4 to Class 1. 20 were private schools. (Sarcasm intended)

 

[bullitpdq68]

People choose to live where they do, in part, because of the choice of schools they are afforded. If a family chooses to move to Kirkwood so their kid can go to school and compete on their teams, how is that any different than if they chose to live somewhere and chose to pay tuition to a private school? Whether it was because they interviewed or saw a billboard or attended an open house, are the criteria families use to pick a school for their kid any different if it's a public vs a private school?

No most people choose to live where it is convenient for their job , in SWMo I have a sweat job at a great company, that happens to be located in Monett. Sure we could move 20 miles to another school district but who wants that drive to work. LOL you need to live in the real world buddy. I don't see any billboards or open houses to private schools around here, and the private schools we do have around here truly are for education only, they don't offer sport programs.

 

[BoosterBosko]

No most people choose to live where it is convenient for their job , in SWMo I have a sweat job at a great company, that happens to be located in Monett. Sure we could move 20 miles to another school district but who wants that drive to work. LOL you need to live in the real world buddy. I don't see any billboards or open houses to private schools around here, and the private schools we do have around here truly are for education only, they don't offer sport programs.

Bullit, before the Doc Guys decided to go their separate ways, I thought that you would have made a great addition to the Doc Guys as the next honorary member. Sadly, no one else was having it and the group ultimately folded up. Just like Mox's law firm!

 

[USArmyMike]

Talking football maybe,,,but look at all of the country club sports and private schools dominate

So?? I highly doubt private schools are running around recruiting kids for Golf and Tennis. Its all crybaby BS to me. Private school kids dominating country club sports is laughable. Gee, lets think about why that is. Oh yeah, because those parents have the money and recourses to invest in those sports. Their kids were going to a private school regardless if they were any good or not.

 

[crusader_2]

No most people choose to live where it is convenient for their job , in SWMo I have a sweat job at a great company, that happens to be located in Monett. Sure we could move 20 miles to another school district but who wants that drive to work. LOL you need to live in the real world buddy. I don't see any billboards or open houses to private schools around here, and the private schools we do have around here truly are for education only, they don't offer sport programs.

The World extends beyond SWMO, or at least mine does anyway. If your experience is different then so be it. I live in St. Louis and there are dozens of public and private schools to choose from. I chose my kids' public school because that's where I wanted for them to go to school. An additional 10 minute commute to work didn't trump the advantages afforded by living in a specific municipality. I could've chosen a private school and that's exactly what it would've been. My choice. Where you live, you don't have that option. Your situation isn't "more real" than mine. It's just different.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

The World extends beyond SWMO, or at least mine does anyway. If your experience is different then so be it. I live in St. Louis and there are dozens of public and private schools to choose from. I chose my kids' public school because that's where I wanted for them to go to school. An additional 10 minute commute to work didn't trump the advantages afforded by living in a specific municipality. I could've chosen a private school and that's exactly what it would've been. My choice. Where you live, you don't have that option. Your situation isn't "more real" than mine. It's just different.

which crusader school do your kids attend

 

[carthagefan2006]

Here's a logical solution: Why not adjust the multiplier from 1.35 each cycle based on a ratio of the number of state championships private schools win versus the number of championships that private schools were expected to have won based on random chance?

For example:

Class 6 Football has 4 private schools out of 32 total schools. Therefore, it would be expected that private schools would win the state championship 0.25 times over a two year cycle. Last year, Kirkwood (public) won the class 6 State Championship. Let's say that Saint Louis Christian Brothers College (private) wins the state championship this year. Private schools would have then won 1.00 State Championships out of an expected 0.25 State Championships or four times as many state championships as expected. You would then multiply 1.35 X 4 to get a new multiplier of 5.40. Now, obviously a small sample size is going to skew that number quite a bit so you would add up all of the state championships won by private schools in all boys and girls sports and then divide the number of championships won by the number of expected championships won for your new multiplication factor. I will throw out somewhat arbitrary numbers to show what this would look like:

2016-2018 Cycle:
11.00 state championships won
5.50 state championships expected
11/5.5 = 2
2 X 1.35 = 2.7
New multiplier = 2.70

2018-2020 Cycle:
9.00 state championships won
6.00 state championships expected
9/6 = 1.5
1.5 X 2.7 = 4.05
New multiplier = 4.05

2020-2022 Cycle:
4.00 state championships won
5.33 state championships expected
4/5.33 = 0.75
0.75 X 4.05 = 3.03
New multiplier = 3.03

And so on. Eventually, you would likely reach a better equilibrium than the current 1.35. Private schools would likely continue to be very successful in some sports, but not successful at all in other sports, but this is true of most any school. Every school has sports that they are successful in and are not successful in. This would just level the playing field between private and public schools.

 

[bullitpdq68]

The World extends beyond SWMO, or at least mine does anyway. If your experience is different then so be it. I live in St. Louis and there are dozens of public and private schools to choose from. I chose my kids' public school because that's where I wanted for them to go to school. An additional 10 minute commute to work didn't trump the advantages afforded by living in a specific municipality. I could've chosen a private school and that's exactly what it would've been. My choice. Where you live, you don't have that option. Your situation isn't "more real" than mine. It's just different.

But that is what I am saying the world extends beyond St Louis, you have a choice most of us don't. Not that it would matter Monett is a great place to live and raise a family really not sure I would choose anyplace else. And we did win the Class 3 state title in softball against a private school. Hopefully we will get a soccer title too, not bad for a rural SWMo school.

 

[JNreturns]

I'm opening a new private school. "The Lavar Ball School for the Gifted."
Approx 200 students. We gonna win Class 1 Bball for the next 20 years.