Playoffs - A thought experiment

[shovel_option]

Did the seeding for all 6 Classes similar to how Illinois does it (I think Illinois and Texas have the two best playoff systems, very different, but the two best in my opinion).
I did make a few changes to how Illinois does it
1. Kept everyone in their Class (Illinois doesn't classify until AFTER the 256 qualifiers have been announced)
2. Used the district point formula for seeding rather than record. In Illinois all the 9 - 0 teams are seeded, then 8 - 1, etc. Opponents wins are used as the tiebreaker. I like our district point system and therefore used it for seeding.

Illinois also divides the lower classes in half, a northern bracket and a southern bracket. In class 8 they seed it 1 - 32. I seeded all classes 1 - 32, but you could easily seed two halves 1 - 16. I didn't bother.

In the cases of Class 3, 4, 5 I had to dip into the 4-5 teams to find the remaining qualifiers. Class 1 and Class 2 had exactly 32 teams at 5-4 or better. Class 6 I actually had to drop 2 teams that were 5-4.

Class 1

1. Duchesne 5 - 4	58.86​
2. Brentwood 8 - 1	57.43​
3. Monroe City 9 - 0	53.76​
4. Marionville 9 - 0	53.52​
5. Crystal City 8 - 1	53.44​
6. Butler 7 - 2	52.37​
7. St. Vincent 7 - 2	51.25​
8. St. Pius 7 - 2	50.75​
9. East Buchanan 8 - 1	49.47​
10. Gallatin 9 - 0	49.32​
11. Scott City 8 - 1	47.47​
12. Mid-Buchanan 8 - 1	46.2​
13. Charleston 6 - 2	45.02​
14. Portageville 7 - 2	42.68​
15. Adrian 7 - 2	42.15​
16. Lincoln 8 - 1	41.82​
17. Ash Grove 7 - 2	41.74​
18. Sarcoxie 6 - 3	40.62​
19. Putnam County 7 - 2	40.36​
20. South Shelby 6 - 3	40.29​
21. Russellville 8 - 1	40.06​
22. Cole Camp 7 - 2	39.38​
23. South Callaway 5 - 4	38.6​
24. Tipton 6 - 3	37.38​
25. Harrisburg 7 - 2	36.56​
26. Windsor 6 - 3	35.56​
27. Fayette 5 - 4	35.14​
28. Milan 5 - 4	34.54​
29. Pierce City 5 - 4	34.38​
30. North Platte 5 - 4	33.15​
31. Wellington 5 - 4	30.6​
32. Marceline 5 - 4	30.06​

 

[shovel_option]

Class 2

1. Lamar 8 - 1	57.75​
2. Blair Oaks 9 - 0	54.83​
3. Seneca 8 - 1	52.08​
4. Mt. Vernon 6 - 3	50.39​
5. NMCC 8 - 1	50.23​
6. St. Michaels 8 - 1	49.93​
7. Richmond 8 - 1	49.89​
8. Hermann 7 - 2	49.14​
9. Lafayette County 9 - 0	48.96​
10. Mountain View Liberty 9 - 0	48.82​
11. Bowling Green 9 - 0	48.27​
12. Priory 6 - 3	47.04​
13. Macon 8 - 1	45.79​
14. Lift for Life 6 - 3	45.45​
15. Trenton 8 - 1	43.79​
16. Borgia 5 - 4	41.81​
17. Mountain Grove 7 - 2	40.9​
18. Warsaw 7 - 2	40.69​
19. Houston 7 - 2	40.6​
20. Jefferson R7 5 - 4	40.58​
21. Centralia 7 - 2	40.38​
22. Ava 6 - 3	40.02​
23. Father Tolton 7 - 2	38.51​
24. Holden 6 - 3	38.51​
25. Fair Grove 5 - 4	38.44​
26. North Callaway 6 - 3	36.85​
27. Forsyth 6 - 3	36.85​
28. Hogan Prep 5 - 4	36.79​
29. Knob Noster 6 - 3	36.76​
30. Lawson 6 - 3	36.03​
31. Strafford 5 - 4	35.59​
32. Kelly 5 - 4	33.57​

 

[shovel_option]

Class 3

1. Cardinal Ritter 9 - 0	58.58​
2. Valle Catholic 9 - 0	56.92​
3. Park Hills 8 - 1	50.72​
4. Sullivan 7 - 2	46.72​
5. St. Charles West 7 - 2	46.18​
6. Pleasant Hill 8 - 1	45.94​
7. Savannah 8 - 1	45​
8. Lutheran St. Charles 6 - 3	44.12​
9. Lutheran North 5 - 4	43.35​
10. Reeds Spring 7 - 2	42.58​
11. Ste. Genevieve 7 - 2	42.19​
12. UAC 7 - 2	40.67​
13. Maryville 6 - 3	39.03​
14. Kennett 6 - 3	38.63​
15. Normandy 5 - 4	38.2​
16. St. Clair 5 - 4	38​
17. Osage 6 - 3	37.67​
18. St. Pius KC 6 - 3	37.24​
19. Odessa 6 - 3	36.92​
20. Herculaneum 5 - 4	36.39​
21. Chillicothe 5 - 4	35.11​
22. Buffalo 5 - 4	33.66​
23. Boonville 5 - 4	31.92​
24. Lutheran South 4 - 4	31.78​
25. University City 4 - 5	41.97​
26. Moberly 4 - 5	35.83​
27. Mexico 4 - 5	34.01​
28. Owensville 4 - 5	31​
29. Cassville 4 - 5	30.86​
30. Cameron 4 - 5	29.78​
31. Dexter 4 - 5	28.55​
32. Southern Boone 4 - 5	28.36​

 

[shovel_option]

Class 4

1.St. Mary's 7 - 2	51.59​
2. Kearney 9 - 0	51.31​
3. Rockwood Summit 8 - 1	50.6​
4. Smithville 8 - 1	48.81​
5. Center 9 - 0	48.07​
6. Hillsboro 8 - 1	47.75​
7. Union 9 - 0	47.6​
8. Hannibal 7 - 2	45.15​
9. West Plains 6 - 3	44.85​
10. Parkway Central 7 - 2	44.47​
11. Vashon 6 - 2	42.57​
12. Lincoln Prep 8 - 1	42.1​
13. Nevada 7 - 2	41.82​
14. Jefferson City 5 - 4	40.85​
15. Hazelwood East 7 - 2	40.44​
16. North County 7 - 2	38.78​
17. Van Horn 6 - 3	38.42​
18. Grandview 5 - 4	37.44​
19. Parkway North 5 - 4	37​
20. Kirksville 5 - 4	32.68​
21. Logan-Rogersville 5 - 4	32.18​
22. Marshfield 5 - 4	31.71​
23. McDonald County 5 - 4	30.9​
24. St. Dominic 4 - 5	31.31​
25. Warrensburg 4 - 5	31.04​
26. Festus 4 - 5	31​
27. Gateway 4 - 5	30.09​
28. Harrisonville 4 - 5	29.97​
29. Windsor 4 - 5	26.94​
30. Carl Junction 3 - 6	37.4​
31. Bolivar 3 - 6	33.74​
32. Excelsior Springs 3 - 6	29.94​

 

[shovel_option]

Class 5

1. Francis Howell 9 - 0	51.96​
2. Eureka 8 - 1	48.93​
3. Carthage 8 - 1	47.96​
4. Camdenton 8 - 1	45.78​
5. Holt 8 - 1	44.12​
6. Lebanon 8 - 1	44.07​
7. MICDS 8 - 1	43.71​
8. Capital City 7 - 2	43.1​
9. Helias Catholic 7 - 2	42.56​
10. Grain Valley 7 - 2	42.47​
11. Fort Osage 7 - 2	41.93​
12. Oak Park 7 - 2	41.21​
13. Lafayette 6 - 3	41.14​
14. Springfield Central 7 - 2	39.95​
15. Webb City 6 - 3	39.4​
16. Jackson 6 - 3	38.75​
17. Timberland 6 - 3	38.26​
18. Republic 6 - 3	37.89​
19. Ladue 6 - 3	37.72​
20. Glendale 6 - 3	36.67​
21. Parkway West 5 - 4	36.47​
22. Oakville 5 - 4	36.02​
23. Washington 5 - 4	35.49​
24. North Kansas City 5 - 4	34.89​
25. Parkway South 5 - 4	33.8​
26. Cape Central 6 - 3	33.14​
27. Ft. Zumwalt North 5 - 4	32.46​
28. St Joe Central 5 - 4	31.96​
29. Raytown 5 - 4	31.82​
30. Ft. Zumwalt West 4 - 5	32.72​
31. Platte County 4 - 5	32.12​
32. Neosho 4 - 5	30.74​

 

[shovel_option]

Class 6

1. Liberty North 9 - 0	47.04​
2. Nixa 8 - 1	44.56​
3. CBC 8 - 1	44.21​
4. Lee's Summit North 8 - 1	43.55​
5. Marquette 8 - 1	43.34​
6. Seckman 8 - 1	42.43​
7. Troy Buch 7 - 2	40.82​
8. Kickapoo 7 - 2	40.29​
9. Joplin 7 - 2	40.18​
10. Rock Bridge 7 - 2	40.01​
11. Kirkwood 5 - 3	39.23​
12. Staley 7 - 2	37.16​
13. Blue Springs South 6 - 3	35.01​
14. Rockhurst 5 - 4	34.62​
15. Ritenour 5 - 4	34.25​
16. Lindbergh 6 - 3	33.59​

 

[KHSDOGS]

If you are going to use the District points for seeding, you need to deduct points from a school when they play down a class.

 

[ChaoticFanatic]

If you are going to use the District points for seeding, you need to deduct points from a school when they play down a class.

I see where you’re coming from there but that would screw a school like Center for instance.
who is Class 3- 9 times out of 10 but barely gets bumped to 4 and plays a mix of Class 3/4 because those are the schools their size

 

[USArmyMike]

If you are going to use the District points for seeding, you need to deduct points from a school when they play down a class.

The reason they don’t is because it would create a scheduling nightmare. No one would schedule down and this could cause a lot of conferences to potentially have problems as well.

 

[quadzilla200]

This was what the guy that keeps the PrepsKC website going suggested.

View From the Press Box: Dion Clisso 10/20 - Prepskc

The most trusted information source for Kansas City High School Football.

prepskc.com

 

[kaching]

Interesting idea. Does Illinois then seed it like a tournament -#1 plays #16 and so on?

 

[shovel_option]

Yes, 1 v 16, etc.
I think their seeding is slightly flawed but probably the best straight-forward way to do it. Only flawed in the sense of a REALLY good 7-2 team like East St. Louis is an 11 seed and will most likely steam roll at least the first two teams they play. That’s why I went with the points system instead of just record first.

If I get around to it I’ll try to split each class into two brackets: north / south or East / west which would limit overall travel.
Higher seeds host, and most win, so these long trips multiple weeks in a row just don’t happen very often. In Illinois if you win a road game and play someone who hosted, you host. So very rarely does someone get back to back road games.

 

[USArmyMike]

Careful @shovel_option, I suggested something similar and 2 posters where so angry they actually rolled off their sisters to insult me.
I remember in another post someone had mentioned taking the top 4 in every district which would be similar to Texas. Maybe something like take the top 32/16(class 6), then place into districts. You know to reduce travel.

Class 6 could look like this

District 1
Marquette 8 - 1	43.34
Seckman 8 - 1	42.43
Kirkwood 5 - 3	39.23
Lindbergh 6 - 3	33.59
District 2
CBC 8 - 1	44.21
Troy Buch 7 - 2	40.82
Rock Bridge 7 - 2	40.01
Ritenour 5 - 4	34.25
District 3
Liberty North 9 - 0	47.04
Staley 7 - 2	37.16
Blue Springs South 6 - 3	35.01
Rockhurst 5 - 4	34.62
District 4
Nixa 8 - 1	44.56
Lee's Summit North 8 - 1	43.55
Kickapoo 7 - 2	40.29
Joplin 7 - 2	40.18

I fell this could work well especially if Mshsaa would stay at 6 classes but balance out the classes evenly and take the top 16 in points. They could go back to a 10 game season, and 4 game at most post season. This way ending easily on thanksgiving weekend. My other suggestion for be to continue the point system and reseed for playoffs

I don't see to many scenarios where the AP top 8 to 10 aren't in the mix and maybe add a stipulation that teams need to be .500 or better to qualify.

 

[TheRealJoey]

If you are going to use the District points for seeding, you need to deduct points from a school when they play down a class.

Some class 4s are playing Class 2s.

 

[TheRealJoey]

The problem with this system is the disparity of competition. Depending on the area of class for the play I’m mostly class two and three schedule. But then you have teams like Smithville in Kearney that play mostly class five schedule. Just keep it like it is and let everybody weed out

 

[mosofan]

Some class 4s are playing Class 2s.

That's why I suggested in another thread to deduct points for playing down 2 or 3 classes. One class is not as big of deal and you have a lot of conferences that have two classes mixed in. But no deduction rewards a team like Springfield Central who is a class 5 team playing a lot of 1s and 2s.

 

[thetophat2021]

The problem with this system is the disparity of competition. Depending on the area of class for the play I’m mostly class two and three schedule. But then you have teams like Smithville in Kearney that play mostly class five schedule. Just keep it like it is and let everybody weed out

MO Class 3 District 7 is astounding.

 

[TheRealJoey]

MO Class 3 District 7 is astounding.

District 7​	Record	Points
Pleasant Hill	7-1	46.09
University Academy	7-1	43.64
Odessa	5-3	35.38
Northeast	2-5	26.72
Oak Grove	1-7	23.41
Summit Christian	1-7	21.14
Kansas City Central	0-8	12.13

Its almost as bad a disparity as C4 District 8

 

[TheRealJoey]

Its simple...use the same system. Score it. If you get top 4 in a district you are in. Eliminate this week of football. Sorry #5s...make an easier schedule. Play better. Whatever. Go down the list, and you will see that out of all the teams, there probably would not be more than 4 with a winning record NOT making it in.

 

[bullitpdq68]

geesh looks like the old 80's points system again....

 

[TheRealJoey]

geesh looks like the old 80's points system again....

Somewhere in the early 80s they went to the four team district system, final 3 games of the season...all district opponents. It sucked. Sometimes you'd have two top 5 teams in the state in one 4-team district

 

[bullitpdq68]

Somewhere in the early 80s they went to the four team district system, final 3 games of the season...all district opponents. It sucked. Sometimes you'd have two top 5 teams in the state in one 4-team district

First they had district points... way before 4 team districts. Many very good teams left behind back then because of point system. How soon people history....

 

[thetophat2021]

District 7​	Record	Points
Pleasant Hill	7-1	46.09
University Academy	7-1	43.64
Odessa	5-3	35.38
Northeast	2-5	26.72
Oak Grove	1-7	23.41
Summit Christian	1-7	21.14
Kansas City Central	0-8	12.13

Its almost as bad a disparity as C4 District 8

Not trying to be mean just realistic: Admittedly OG has had a rough season but how close is that NE game gonna be? Next up is UA in the semi hosting Odessa. SOS matters, MSHSAA.

 

[thetophat2021]

District 7​	Record	Points
Pleasant Hill	7-1	46.09
University Academy	7-1	43.64
Odessa	5-3	35.38
Northeast	2-5	26.72
Oak Grove	1-7	23.41
Summit Christian	1-7	21.14
Kansas City Central	0-8	12.13

Its almost as bad a disparity as C4 District 8

Difference is they didn't seed Smithville #3.

 

[MoSooner69]

3 of the teams in District 4 have not won a game.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

Somewhere in the early 80s they went to the four team district system, final 3 games of the season...all district opponents. It sucked. Sometimes you'd have two top 5 teams in the state in one 4-team district

1988 season.

There were years when this district had 4 top 10 teams.

Win and advance.

P.S. Before that you had undefeated teams go without playoff berths because they didn't have enough 'points'.

Adrian made it in 1987 after losing one game to the number one team in the state 22-21 in 2OT at their place.

Luckily we played and smoked holden and sherwood (class 2a teams) that year. If we hadn't beaten holden 50=0 no way we get in.

That system invited some 'run ups'.

 

[Rufus R. Jones]

Somewhere in the early 80s they went to the four team district system, final 3 games of the season...all district opponents. It sucked. Sometimes you'd have two top 5 teams in the state in one 4-team district

It didn't suck. It worked perfectly. The best teams won state. Everybody else argued endlessly over 2nd place, and 3rd, and 4th, and 5th. Then they went to winter and spring sports seasons, which have plenty of who gives a shit consolation rounds and bronze medals, where nobody has to argue about who got 12th place, because they play a bunch of sparsely attended games to end all the arguing.

 

[TheRealJoey]

It didn't suck. It worked perfectly. The best teams won state. Everybody else argued endlessly over 2nd place, and 3rd, and 4th, and 5th. Then they went to winter and spring sports seasons, which have plenty of who gives a shit consolation rounds and bronze medals, where nobody has to argue about who got 12th place, because they play a bunch of sparsely attended games to end all the arguing.

Excelsior Springs won state in 94... lost in that stupid system to Hickman in 95. Then won state again in 1996. No, it sucked.

 

[Rufus R. Jones]

Excelsior Springs won state in 94... lost in that stupid system to Hickman in 95. Then won state again in 1996. No, it sucked.

Is that in Missouri?

 

[TheRealJoey]

Is that in Missouri?

Yes, at the time...five classes. 1A to 5A. Excelsior Springs won Class 4A titles in 1994 and 1996, beating Webb and Camdenton on the run in 1996. Beating Jackson in 1994 in the title game. It is pronounced, MIZZ-er-AH

 

[Veer2Eternity]

Excelsior Springs won state in 94... lost in that stupid system to Hickman in 95. Then won state again in 1996. No, it sucked.

They weren't good enough to win it in 1995.

Or they'd have won their district.

 

[Rufus R. Jones]

They weren't good enough to win it in 1995.

Or they'd have won their district.

Yes.
And likely got damn lucky the other two years.

 

[TheRealJoey]

Yes.
And likely got damn lucky the other two years.

36-15 over Camdenton...don't need lucky when you have 20 D2 starters on your team.

 

[sw5890]

Somewhere in the early 80s they went to the four team district system, final 3 games of the season...all district opponents. It sucked. Sometimes you'd have two top 5 teams in the state in one 4-team district

Kinda seems like there was a year when Webb city was 1 and Carthage was 2 and they were both in the same 4 team district.

 

[USArmyMike]

The problem with the 4 team districts was the 3 way ties.

 

[MGHS]

geesh looks like the old 80's points system again....

It is.... Don't know why people are so against teams deciding it on the field in actual competition. They want to seed, weed and orchestrate it per their biased views. Everybody in Everyone plays Everyone has a chance to win and advance. Such A radical concept we must eliminate it at all cost.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

It is.... Don't know why people are so against teams deciding it on the field in actual competition.

Nobody is against that.

 

[MoSooner69]

It was 1992 I think that Branson, Nixa, Cassville, and Aurora were in a 4 team District. All in the top 10 at one time and ended in a 3 way tie. Two 9-1 teams didnt make the playoffs.

 

[Rufus R. Jones]

It was 1992 I think that Branson, Nixa, Cassville, and Aurora were in a 4 team District. All in the top 10 at one time and ended in a 3 way tie. Two 9-1 teams didnt make the playoffs.

Which one won the state title?

 

[MoSooner69]

NONE... I believe that was the same year that Bolivar got hot at the end of the year and marched to the title game before losing to Ste Genevieve