Do Private Schools Have Any Business Playing Class 1 Football?

[Class1FootballFan]

Maybe I am missing the point but I what i think veer is saying is about "pulling kids" is you have a bigger pond to fish in.

Most the class one towns over on West side have under 1000 in population

 

[Majost]

Just because you could combine the schools does not mean they would dominate in the larger class. Several years ago, Joplin Memorial was a power in basketball. Joplin Parkwood was a power in football. Both won state championships in their respective sports. They joined forces and became Joplin High School. They have not won a state championship, and except for a couple good basketball teams in the Jeff Hafer era, have not even got close to duplicating the success they enjoyed when they were two separate schools.

You didn't hear what I said. They would still be in the same class as the current public school district is in if you add the private school students.

 

[mjkjx3]

And if you add Valle's student enrollment with Ste. Gen's public school, they would stay in the same class as Ste Gene public school, and they would be winning state championships there too. Same with Borgia. If you add that student enrollment to Washington's public school system, they wouldn't go up a class either. So close both catholic schools and you still have a community that is producing state championships left and right. You are right. Simple math.

You know when mjkjx3 stated that Catholic Schools have an advantage. More I thought about it is he was right. The extreme advantage is that you have great parents who take a active positive roll into their children's education and into their sports.

Got it. All public school parents are degenerates....... Now I see the next UFC fight night Catholic parents vs public school parents. you keep twisting your pretzel however you would like but the reality is still there. They should not be allowed in Class I sports. period.

And if you add Valle's student enrollment with Ste. Gen's public school, they would stay in the same class as Ste Gene public school, and they would be winning state championships there too. Same with Borgia. If you add that student enrollment to Washington's public school system, they wouldn't go up a class either. So close both catholic schools and you still have a community that is producing state championships left and right. You are right. Simple math.

You know when mjkjx3 stated that Catholic Schools have an advantage. More I thought about it is he was right. The extreme advantage is that you have great parents who take a active positive roll into their children's education and into their sports.

 

[Majost]

Got it. All public school parents are degenerates....... Now I see the next UFC fight night Catholic parents vs public school parents. you keep twisting your pretzel however you would like but the reality is still there. They should not be allowed in Class I sports. period.

LOL. Keep trying. Did I not say in our public school system it is the same small group of parents doing the all the work. But if you want to use the word "all parents" than go right ahead. Actually if you asked Valle just like if you ask Webb, they would actually love to move up a class if MSHAA would let them. They don't have a choice. You see, the thing is, true competitors want to compete. They want that competition. They strive off of it, whether its a public school athletes like Webb and other programs, or private schools athletes. Always tell my kids I don't like excuses or complaining? You teach your kids that too? If you have kids. Or do you teach them things aren't fair?

 

[Veer2Eternity]

You didn't hear what I said. They would still be in the same class as the current public school district is in if you add the private school students.

Except they pull from Jefferson county too..as per the Valle website.
That's why they shouldn't be competing against public schools. There aren't district boundaries.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

LOL. Keep trying. Did I not say in our public school system it is the same small group of parents doing the all the work. But if you want to use the word "all parents" than go right ahead. Actually if you asked Valle just like if you ask Webb, they would actually love to move up a class if MSHAA would let them. They don't have a choice. You see, the thing is, true competitors want to compete. They want that competition. They strive off of it, whether its a public school athletes like Webb and other programs, or private schools athletes. Always tell my kids I don't like excuses or complaining? You teach your kids that too? If you have kids. Or do you teach them things aren't fair?

Glad to see you got a new username.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

You keep talking about "pulling" kids from different areas. Do you know if sports was that important to someone, nothing stops them from moving to a different school district after their 8th grade year if you wanted to be part of certain school sports program, or do it during the high school year.

That's kind of part of the point....you actually have to MOVE to public school. Not so much private. Thanks for bolstering our argument.

 

[Gubbba Bump Shrimp]

You didn't hear what I said. They would still be in the same class as the current public school district is in if you add the private school students.

Washington would move up to Class 6 if you added Borgia to it. They'd be over 1930 in total enrollment.

Ste Genevieve would move up to Class 4 with a 750 enrollment if they added Valle.

Check enrollments before you make claims.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

Washington would move up to Class 6 if you added Borgia to it. They'd be over 1930 in total enrollment.

Ste Genevieve would move up to Class 4 with a 750 enrollment if they added Valle.

Check enrollments before you make claims.

Ouch. Math is hard.

 

[millerbleach]

With privates it's not so much who they pull in (though there are MANY examples that can be cited) it is who they keep out. As has been said, they don't get the deadbeat families. Everyone who sends their kids to private schools are putting their kids ahead of everything else unless they are loaded enough to not have to make sacrifices. Publics not only don't get to be discriminate with who they allow but they can also have a wealthy alum or parent provide tuition for that "missing piece" at times.
The multiplier for privates is just not high enough. And no, Valle, Lamar, and Webb wouldn't move up if MSHSAA would allow it.

 

[Gubbba Bump Shrimp]

With privates it's not so much who they pull in (though there are MANY examples that can be cited) it is who they keep out. As has been said, they don't get the deadbeat families. Everyone who sends their kids to private schools are putting their kids ahead of everything else unless they are loaded enough to not have to make sacrifices. Publics not only don't get to be discriminate with who they allow but they can also have a wealthy alum or parent provide tuition for that "missing piece" at times.
The multiplier for privates is just not high enough. And no, Valle, Lamar, and Webb wouldn't move up if MSHSAA would allow it.

I would argue the multiplier is fair, there simply shouldn't be private schools playing in the lowest Classification in any sport for the numerous advantages we've already detailed.

 

[vbsideout]

Here's a bit of news. Valle is starting a new campaign to raise money to put towards their scholarship program. Heard it at church today from my wife. Ohhh the horror!!!!!! Guess they had to do it to keep up with Lamar.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

Here's a bit of news. Valle is starting a new campaign to raise money to put towards their scholarship program. Heard it at church today from my wife. Ohhh the horror!!!!!! Guess they had to do it to keep up with Lamar.

Scholarship program? Interesting. How many other class 1 schools have one of those? If I paid a kids out of district tuition do you think MSHSAA would be ok with that?

 

[Kenny56]

Here's a bit of news. Valle is starting a new campaign to raise money to put towards their scholarship program. Heard it at church today from my wife. Ohhh the horror!!!!!! Guess they had to do it to keep up with Lamar.

Thats a mighty big pot stirring stick ya got there. Good to see ya Friday Night!

 

[Majost]

LOL. Keep trying. Did I not say in our public school system it is the same small group of parents doing the all the work. But if you want to use the word "all parents" than go right ahead. Actually if you asked Valle just like if you ask Webb, they would actually love to move up a class if MSHAA would let them. They don't have a choice. You see, the thing is, true competitors want to compete. They want that competition. They strive off of it, whether its a public school athletes like Webb and other programs, or private schools athletes. Always tell my kids I don't like excuses or complaining? You teach your kids that too? If you have kids. Or do you teach them things aren't fair?

Again, great coaches and great athletes want to compete. I

Washington would move up to Class 6 if you added Borgia to it. They'd be over 1930 in total enrollment.

Ste Genevieve would move up to Class 4 with a 750 enrollment if they added Valle.

Check enrollments before you make claims.

And I would still put Ste Gen competing year after year for the title in football and some other sports. Neither Washington or Borgia ever make state runs in football hardly so, don't think it would matter. But the fact is great competitors such as the Webb City's, Kirkwoods, Francis Howells and also the privates schools don't sit on a site such as this and complain about things not being fair, they like competing. They don't spend their time teaching kids we aren't winning because of this or because of that. Amazing how you never see any private schools starting threads like this complaining of the multiplier. But I'm done with this topic. The sad part about it is, we will hear about this from folks like many on here ohhhh, a hand full of times this year.

 

[Kenny56]

Bubba, are those numbers correct this cycle? I was under the impression with Valle's enrollment(minus the multiplier affect) Ste. Gen. would still be Class 3. Just curious on a dumb scenario.

 

[Gubbba Bump Shrimp]

Bubba, are those numbers correct this cycle? I was under the impression with Valle's enrollment(minus the multiplier affect) Ste. Gen. would still be Class 3. Just curious on a dumb scenario.

Ste Genevieve's enrollment for this cycle is 638, Valle's enrollment before the multiplier is 120, combined enrollment of 758.

 

[Scout 4u]

I agree as well that the multiplier should be looked at again. My father in law was involved in that process years ago and he too thinks it is time.

As for privates in football?

I would argue that "volleyball" s far more affected by the numbers....

Several years back I was in Springfield for the finals and nearly every team involved was private.

If for no other reason, that should not happen....

IMO if anyone cares...

 

[Kenny56]

Ste Genevieve's enrollment for this cycle is 638, Valle's enrollment before the multiplier is 120, combined enrollment of 758.

Gotchya

 

[vbsideout]

Thats a mighty big pot stirring stick ya got there. Good to see ya Friday Night!

LOL good to see you too. Dragons looked pretty good at times. Spent a couple of hours fishing Friday and didn't catch much so I thought would throw a cricket out here and see what happens

 

[Gubbba Bump Shrimp]

Again, great coaches and great athletes want to compete. I


And I would still put Ste Gen competing year after year for the title in football and some other sports. Neither Washington or Borgia ever make state runs in football hardly so, don't think it would matter. But the fact is great competitors such as the Webb City's, Kirkwoods, Francis Howells and also the privates schools don't sit on a site such as this and complain about things not being fair, they like competing. They don't spend their time teaching kids we aren't winning because of this or because of that. Amazing how you never see any private schools starting threads like this complaining of the multiplier. But I'm done with this topic. The sad part about it is, we will hear about this from folks like many on here ohhhh, a hand full of times this year.

Answer me this, if you're a private school drawing from a population center of roughly 18,000 (between Festus and Ste Gen) and you have the opportunity to be selective with who you admit do you have more or less of an opportunity to be successful than say Miller or Adrian who draw from a population of less than 1000 who must live within their school district boundaries?

 

[Veer2Eternity]

Again, great coaches and great athletes want to compete. I


And I would still put Ste Gen competing year after year for the title in football and some other sports. Neither Washington or Borgia ever make state runs in football hardly so, don't think it would matter. But the fact is great competitors such as the Webb City's, Kirkwoods, Francis Howells and also the privates schools don't sit on a site such as this and complain about things not being fair, they like competing. They don't spend their time teaching kids we aren't winning because of this or because of that. Amazing how you never see any private schools starting threads like this complaining of the multiplier. But I'm done with this topic. The sad part about it is, we will hear about this from folks like many on here ohhhh, a hand full of times this year.

Compete with like programs and then talk. Thanks SSOINSG.

 

[Majost]

Answer me this, if you're a private school drawing from a population center of roughly 18,000 (between Festus and Ste Gen) and you have the opportunity to be selective with who you admit do you have more or less of an opportunity to be successful than say Miller or Adrian who draw from a population of less than 1000 who must live within their school district boundaries?

Yeah they would maybe have an advantage if they had a overflow of applications into their school and they just got to pick left and right the pupils they wanted in their school. When the fact is Catholic Schools have struggle for a while across the board. Since you wanted to throw up MSHSAA enrollments numbers at me lets take a look at Valle's enrollment numbers over the last 6 years. Like it was stated this year:
2016: 120
2014: 151
2010: 179

Man, they really have been slacking on giving out all that extra scholarship money they have huh? Sounds like to me they are struggling to keep the doors open.

You could put on a 2x multiplier on valle and they still wouldn't have enough to make class 2. But again, I bet that program would accept the challenge. They wouldn't be coming on boards like this making excuses and complaining.

Oh Veer:
Sounds like under your way of thinking you would still have segregation programs. I mean you did say, "compete with like programs".right? You're a sad man.

 

[MIZSEC21]

Yet, they will still somehow have 55 boys out for football and not one will be a special needs kid.

All you pro Valle supporters' arguments are invalid. Reason being is that they can select who walks in their doors. They do not have to take anyone and everyone. Entrance interviews? If only public schools had that option.

 

[blakmilk]

Answer me this, if you're a private school drawing from a population center of roughly 18,000 (between Festus and Ste Gen) and you have the opportunity to be selective with who you admit do you have more or less of an opportunity to be successful than say Miller or Adrian who draw from a population of less than 1000 who must live within their school district boundaries?

People keep saying that Valle serves Jefferson county on their website but when I look I can't find where it says that. Can someone tell me where that is?

 

[Gubbba Bump Shrimp]

Yeah they would maybe have an advantage if they had a overflow of applications into their school and they just got to pick left and right the pupils they wanted in their school. When the fact is Catholic Schools have struggle for a while across the board. Since you wanted to throw up MSHSAA enrollments numbers at me lets take a look at Valle's enrollment numbers over the last 6 years. Like it was stated this year:
2016: 120
2014: 151
2010: 179

Man, they really have been slacking on giving out all that extra scholarship money they have huh? Sounds like to me they are struggling to keep the doors open.

You could put on a 2x multiplier on valle and they still wouldn't have enough to make class 2. But again, I bet that program would accept the challenge. They wouldn't be coming on boards like this making excuses and complaining.

Oh Veer:
Sounds like under your way of thinking you would still have segregation programs. I mean you did say, "compete with like programs".right? You're a sad man.

As was already stated, yeah they only have 120 kids and yet somehow they have 55-60 kids out for football. Let's not forget they interview the kids and get to determine who gets to attend and who doesn't.

How many Class 1 public schools do you see with 50+ kids out, year after year despite shrinking enrollment?

 

[Gubbba Bump Shrimp]

People keep saying that Valle serves Jefferson county on their website but when I look I can't find where it says that. Can someone tell me where that is?

Are you implying if a 6'3" 250+ lb Catholic kid from southern Jefferson County with good grades tried to enroll at Valle they wouldn't service him?

 

[Majost]

Yet, they will still somehow have 55 boys out for football and not one will be a special needs kid.

All you pro Valle supporters' arguments are invalid. Reason being is that they can select who walks in their doors. They do not have to take anyone and everyone. Entrance interviews? If only public schools had that option.

You have no idea how much it cost to run a private school do you? lol. Around a 33% drop in enrollment, yeah they are doing that because they are being more picky in who the accept, righttt. 55 kids. That is awesome. But maxprep has them as 45, which is still awesome. I could only imagine the comradery in that school among the boys. Why wouldn't you want to be part of that program. I bet every football coach would tell you participation is great for the students and would encourage more to come out. Same as Webb.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_e785b7a7-452b-5cf7-917a-683f38a95c32.html

 

[Taco Tico]

There isn't one kid on Valle's roster from Jeff Co

 

[Gubbba Bump Shrimp]

You have no idea how much it cost to run a private school do you? lol. Around a 33% drop in enrollment, yeah they are doing that because they are being more picky in who the accept, righttt. 55 kids. That is awesome. But maxprep has them as 45, which is still awesome. I could only imagine the comradery in that school among the boys. Why wouldn't you want to be part of that program. I bet every football coach would tell you participation is great for the students and would encourage more to come out. Same as Webb.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_e785b7a7-452b-5cf7-917a-683f38a95c32.html

You can keep comparing them to Webb, but ultimately Webb is constrained by district boundaries, accept every student who shows enrolls, regardless of mental, physical, or behavioral issues, and are playing schools with between 350 and 600 boys to choose from (in Class 4).

Valle meanwhile draws from an area with ~20,000 people, can reject mental and behavior issues, but plays schools who are constrained by district boundaries and usually are rural with towns of less than 1000 people and between 60 and 110 boys to choose from, not taking into account the boys in those rural schools who HAVE to work, have mental or behavior issues, aren't athletes, or don't play for whatever reason. No that isn't Valle's fault, but you can't say Valle or even St. Vincent play under the same constraints as Thayer, Miller, Marionville, Mark Twain, etc.

Private schools have inherent advantages that are magnified when playing against the smallest schools in the state.

 

[blakmilk]

Are you implying if a 6'3" 250+ lb Catholic kid from southern Jefferson County with good grades tried to enroll at Valle they wouldn't service him?

I'm not saying that at all. I'm honestly inquiring where it says they serve Jefferson County on their website.

 

[Gubbba Bump Shrimp]

There isn't one kid on Valle's roster from Jeff Co

There never has been?

 

[MIZSEC21]

You have no idea how much it cost to run a private school do you? lol. Around a 33% drop in enrollment, yeah they are doing that because they are being more picky in who the accept, righttt. 55 kids. That is awesome. But maxprep has them as 45, which is still awesome. I could only imagine the comradery in that school among the boys. Why wouldn't you want to be part of that program. I bet every football coach would tell you participation is great for the students and would encourage more to come out. Same as Webb.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_e785b7a7-452b-5cf7-917a-683f38a95c32.html

Webb and Valle are not in the same league comparison wise. Public vs Private. Period. 120 students but 45 go out. That doesn't happen in public schools year in and year out. You are selecting your kids. Baseball and Football are great every year with that small enrollment. Get outta here with that "we take everyone" lol

 

[Majost]

You can keep comparing them to Webb, but ultimately Webb is constrained by district boundaries, accept every student who shows enrolls, regardless of mental, physical, or behavioral issues, and are playing schools with between 350 and 600 boys to choose from (in Class 4).

Valle meanwhile draws from an area with ~20,000 people, can reject mental and behavior issues, but plays schools who are constrained by district boundaries and usually are rural with towns of less than 1000 people and between 60 and 110 boys to choose from, not taking into account the boys in those rural schools who HAVE to work, have mental or behavior issues, aren't athletes, or don't play for whatever reason. No that isn't Valle's fault, but you can't say Valle or even St. Vincent play under the same constraints as Thayer, Miller, Marionville, Mark Twain, etc.

Private schools have inherent advantages that are magnified when playing against the smallest schools in the state.

Wow, now its up to 20,000 people... First someone said 18,000. "Same Constraints" Can't compare it to Webb? Are you telling there has been no kids that moved into that school district to play football for them. I believe you are wrong on that. Just like any of you can move to any school district if you ever wanted to and play sports. I mean you said kids do it for private schools just to play ball, why wouldn't they do it for good public school programs? No one stops any public school kid from doing that. And I would bet you the amount of money it would cost you to move, wouldn't be as much as a parent spends on 4 years tuition. OHHHH i forgot, all the football kids are on scholarship. And you know what, all the teachers and administration work for free, just so a 1A school can have a great football program. What what a great little community. By the way, a 1/3 of Valle's 45 players according to max preps are freshman.

 

[Majost]

Webb and Valle are not in the same league comparison wise. Public vs Private. Period. 120 students but 45 go out. That doesn't happen in public schools year in and year out. You are selecting your kids. Baseball and Football are great every year with that small enrollment. Get outta here with that "we take everyone" lol

Yeah and they don't go out for the sport because they actually want to huh? That probably is the 3rd question asked after name and address on the application for admission huh. Do you play football? You answer no and you go into the trash.

 

[Gubbba Bump Shrimp]

Wow, now its up to 20,000 people... First someone said 18,000. "Same Constraints" Can't compare it to Webb? Are you telling there has been no kids that moved into that school district to play football for them. I believe you are wrong on that. Just like any of you can move to any school district if you ever wanted to and play sports. I mean you said kids do it for private schools just to play ball, why wouldn't they do it for good public school programs? No one stops any public school kid from doing that. And I would bet you the amount of money it would cost you to move, wouldn't be as much as a parent spends on 4 years tuition. OHHHH i forgot, all the football kids are on scholarship. And you know what, all the teachers and administration work for free, just so a 1A school can have a great football program. What what a great little community. By the way, a 1/3 of Valle's 45 players according to max preps are freshman.

1. This symbol ~ means approximately. When I said 18,000 before, that was a conservative estimate only covering the exact population of the towns of Ste Genevieve and Festus. Simply rounded up for a STILL conservative estimate of the surrounding area.

2. If you want to move public schools you actually have to move. I couldn't find tuition information for Valle, but if you think paying tuition at a semi-rural private school for 4 years would cost more than buying a new house and moving, I don't want to know what kind of house you're living in. Tuition at St. Pius in Festus is $7500 a year so in your mind, $30,000 over 4 years is more than the cost of moving? Furthermore, if I live in Festus and for some reason wanted my kid to go to school at Ste Genevieve public, I actually have to uproot and move to Ste Genevieve. If I live in Festus and want my kid to go to Valle, he or I just have to pay tuition and drive 25 minutes.

 

[Gubbba Bump Shrimp]

I'm not saying that at all. I'm honestly inquiring where it says they serve Jefferson County on their website.

I never claimed it did, you'll have to talk to Veer about that one, but it's not an improbable claim either. If you're a Catholic parent in southern Jefferson County of a kid who's a solid athlete in baseball and football and the kid wants to win, why wouldn't you send them to Valle or at least attempt to?

 

[Majost]

1. This symbol ~ means approximately. When I said 18,000 before, that was a conservative estimate only covering the exact population of the towns of Ste Genevieve and Festus. Simply rounded up for a STILL conservative estimate of the surrounding area.

2. If you want to move public schools you actually have to move. I couldn't find tuition information for Valle, but if you think paying tuition at a semi-rural private school for 4 years would cost more than buying a new house and moving, I don't want to know what kind of house you're living in. Tuition at St. Pius in Festus is $7500 a year so in your mind, $30,000 over 4 years is more than the cost of moving? Furthermore, if I live in Festus and for some reason wanted my kid to go to school at Ste Genevieve public, I actually have to uproot and move to Ste Genevieve. If I live in Festus and want my kid to go to Valle, he or I just have to pay tuition and drive 25 minutes.

Yes or no. Could you do it if you wanted to? If you all thought sports was that important to you, could you do it? I mean it sounds like you all think sports is the only thing that matters to Valle High School parents and students, why could it not be the case for a public school parent? I mean according to census date the average person moves 11.7 times in their lifetime. Just make this one of those 11.7 times if that makes you happy. The fact is any person can go to any district they want if they really wanted to. And I think someone mentioned there was no one from Jefferson county on that roster.anyway.

 

[Gubbba Bump Shrimp]

Yes or no. Could you do it if you wanted to? If you all thought sports was that important to you, could you do it? I mean it sounds like you all think sports is the only thing that matters to Valle High School parents and students, why could it not be the case for a public school parent? I mean according to census date the average person moves 11.7 times in their lifetime. Just make this one of those 11.7 times if that makes you happy. The fact is any person can go to any district they want if they really wanted to. And I think someone mentioned there was no one from Jefferson county on that roster.anyway.

1. Do private schools have inherent advantages over public schools?

2. Are those advantages more or less pronounced against smaller schools?

3. What is the reasoning for even having a multiplier?

4. Assuming we have the multiplier for a reason, but the multiplier doesn't affect certain schools, should those schools then be moved up to the next Classification?

 

[Veer2Eternity]

I'm not saying that at all. I'm honestly inquiring where it says they serve Jefferson County on their website.

It did at one time. The wiki says St Francois county at the moment. I'm sure someone will rush and change that as well.