Tulsa
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High School in the 80's. We read a Article on the Hangings in down town Springfield and it was mentioned in that.
Not going to lie I'm not invested outside of a base curiosity about something that happened 100 years ago, especially when we have had on going riots that cost the Nation Billions and Cost the lives of people that are from the current generation.
Sure the Massacre was sick, evil and jealousy driven. I have no issue with the Documentaries being produced, but the fact that the articles/Documentaries I read and watched seem to want to drive home some emotional context and link to life in current day society is unpalatable to me. The theme seems to be that little or nothing has changed and that this is the continued climate in America.
Not going to lie I'm not invested outside of a base curiosity about something that happened 100 years ago, especially when we have had on going riots that cost the Nation Billions and Cost the lives of people that are from the current generation.
Sure the Massacre was sick, evil and jealousy driven. I have no issue with the Documentaries being produced, but the fact that the articles/Documentaries I read and watched seem to want to drive home some emotional context and link to life in current day society is unpalatable to me. The theme seems to be that little or nothing has changed and that this is the continued climate in America.
I'm sure I heard of the massacre before recently but it never really registered how horrific the event was. I do believe that the black history being taught in our schools has been sugarcoated. The treatment of blacks and Native Americans in our history is deplorable. We touch on the subjects in history classes, but the depth of white America's inhumanity goes way beyond a chapter in a high school American history class. We have a hard time admitting our faults as a nation..
What we did to Black people was terrible but doesn’t hold a candle to what was done to the Native American.
Things have changed since then, but it was not because everyone felt it needed to change.
There were people all throughout the last 100 years, who have argued that we don't change anymore, things are better than they were 100 years ago after all we don't own people anymore.
There were people all throughout the last 100 years, who have argued that we don't change anymore, things are better than they were 100 years ago after all we don't own people anymore.
Yeah, I can't compare either. Death or being treated like a work animal or worse everyday for your entire life.
We were always taught and it has been written in local history of Ste Genevieve County that local slaves were treated much better than the plantation slaves in the South. I'm sure some were treated more as servants than slaves. Yet I always wondered how much of that was our own sugarcoating to not tarnish local family names. There are written firsthand accounts of former slaves of one of our largest slave owners talking about getting "whuppins with the strap" and families being broken up to never see each other again.
I learned more about Cassville being the Confederate State Capitol than I learned about the Pierce City (and SWMO) lynchings in high school and college.
It is hard to believe that not one of the Tulsa pilots dropping bombs or one of the insurance companies not paying out black Tulsan's homeowner claims was not held liable for anything, but thousands of Americans were held in concentration camps after their homes, businesses, schools, and churches were looted and burned. This happened 2 miles from me and a 100 miles down the road from me and it all disgusts me, but go ahead and defend it.
It is hard to believe that not one of the Tulsa pilots dropping bombs or one of the insurance companies not paying out black Tulsan's homeowner claims was not held liable for anything, but thousands of Americans were held in concentration camps after their homes, businesses, schools, and churches were looted and burned. This happened 2 miles from me and a 100 miles down the road from me and it all disgusts me, but go ahead and defend it.
You can't defend any injustice and comparing injustices is a complete waste of time. History is littered with horrific act's of violence and oppression.
But the thing is we still have Genocides going on this very day!!! Look at what the Chinese are doing to Uyghurs
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/chinas-repression-uyghurs-xinjiang
And in Africa
www.forbes.com
And it wasn't that long ago in Rwanda that the evil was wide spread....
I don't think we should bury the past or sugar coat it. It should be acknowledged and discussed in a logical context to assure it doesn't happen again. But without a doubt a 100 year old massacre is not relevant to the current day climate in society in America. American has done Bad things and Good things. Just like Every Country and Civilization in the world has, it's called human nature.
We have plenty of Work to do right now all over the world. The Internment of Japanese Americans is more recent than the Tulsa Massacre. So why are we so focused on Tulsa now?
www.history.com
If people want to go down the Rabbit Hole of past injustices then it will be a never ending emotional rollercoaster of blame, discord and not moving forward to improve the here and now.
I'd have no issue with a vetting of people who are direct descendants and them receiving some monetary reparations from the loss of generational wealth. But once that is done everyone that is involved needs to move forward with life.
But the thing is we still have Genocides going on this very day!!! Look at what the Chinese are doing to Uyghurs
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/chinas-repression-uyghurs-xinjiang
And in Africa
Is Genocide Happening In Nigeria As The World Turns A Blind Eye?
On June 15, 2020, the U.K. All-Party Parliamentary Group for International Freedom of Religion or Belief (APPG), a cross-party group of parliamentarians representing both houses of the U.K. Parliament, released a report about the mass atrocities perpetrated in Nigeria by the Fulani militia.
www.forbes.com
And it wasn't that long ago in Rwanda that the evil was wide spread....
Rwanda genocide: 100 days of slaughter
In just 100 days in 1994, some 800,000 people were slaughtered in Rwanda by ethnic Hutu extremists - how did the genocide happen?
www.bbc.com
I don't think we should bury the past or sugar coat it. It should be acknowledged and discussed in a logical context to assure it doesn't happen again. But without a doubt a 100 year old massacre is not relevant to the current day climate in society in America. American has done Bad things and Good things. Just like Every Country and Civilization in the world has, it's called human nature.
We have plenty of Work to do right now all over the world. The Internment of Japanese Americans is more recent than the Tulsa Massacre. So why are we so focused on Tulsa now?
Japanese Internment Camps: WWII, Life & Conditions | HISTORY
Japanese internment camps were established during World War II by President Franklin D. Roosevelt through his Executive Order 9066. From 1942 to 1945, it was the policy of the U.S. government that people of Japanese descent, including U.S. citizens, be incarcerated.
www.history.com
If people want to go down the Rabbit Hole of past injustices then it will be a never ending emotional rollercoaster of blame, discord and not moving forward to improve the here and now.
I'd have no issue with a vetting of people who are direct descendants and them receiving some monetary reparations from the loss of generational wealth. But once that is done everyone that is involved needs to move forward with life.
...in other words, sweep it under the rug ?You can't defend any injustice and comparing injustices is a complete waste of time. History is littered with horrific act's of violence and oppression.
But the thing is we still have Genocides going on this very day!!! Look at what the Chinese are doing to Uyghurs
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/chinas-repression-uyghurs-xinjiang
And in Africa
Is Genocide Happening In Nigeria As The World Turns A Blind Eye?
On June 15, 2020, the U.K. All-Party Parliamentary Group for International Freedom of Religion or Belief (APPG), a cross-party group of parliamentarians representing both houses of the U.K. Parliament, released a report about the mass atrocities perpetrated in Nigeria by the Fulani militia.
And it wasn't that long ago in Rwanda that the evil was wide spread....
Rwanda genocide: 100 days of slaughter
In just 100 days in 1994, some 800,000 people were slaughtered in Rwanda by ethnic Hutu extremists - how did the genocide happen?www.bbc.com
I don't think we should bury the past or sugar coat it. It should be acknowledged and discussed in a logical context to assure it doesn't happen again. But without a doubt a 100 year old massacre is not relevant to the current day climate in society in America. American has done Bad things and Good things. Just like Every Country and Civilization in the world has, it's called human nature.
We have plenty of Work to do right now all over the world. The Internment of Japanese Americans is more recent than the Tulsa Massacre. So why are we so focused on Tulsa now?
Japanese Internment Camps: WWII, Life & Conditions | HISTORY
Japanese internment camps were established during World War II by President Franklin D. Roosevelt through his Executive Order 9066. From 1942 to 1945, it was the policy of the U.S. government that people of Japanese descent, including U.S. citizens, be incarcerated.
If people want to go down the Rabbit Hole of past injustices then it will be a never ending emotional rollercoaster of blame, discord and not moving forward to improve the here and now.
I'd have no issue with a vetting of people who are direct descendants and them receiving some monetary reparations from the loss of generational wealth. But once that is done everyone that is involved needs to move forward with life.
Nope, he isn't sweeping it under the rug, he is playing 'what about.'
What about China? What about Africa? A whole community of black people has not been killed in 100 years. And none of the people involved then were ever involved in passing down that hatred.
What about what we did to the Japanese Americans? They shouldn't be upset either.
After all, there haven't been campaigns to end AAIP hate.
I keep hearing about reparations for this or that. Tell me where that money comes from, I had nothing to do with it and my tax dollars need to fix things in the here and now. What value do you put on such things done to someone in your family 100 years ago? Who decides how much that's worth to people that weren't born yet? How far down the line do you have be to get left out of the money?You can't defend any injustice and comparing injustices is a complete waste of time. History is littered with horrific act's of violence and oppression.
But the thing is we still have Genocides going on this very day!!! Look at what the Chinese are doing to Uyghurs
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/chinas-repression-uyghurs-xinjiang
And in Africa
Is Genocide Happening In Nigeria As The World Turns A Blind Eye?
On June 15, 2020, the U.K. All-Party Parliamentary Group for International Freedom of Religion or Belief (APPG), a cross-party group of parliamentarians representing both houses of the U.K. Parliament, released a report about the mass atrocities perpetrated in Nigeria by the Fulani militia.
And it wasn't that long ago in Rwanda that the evil was wide spread....
Rwanda genocide: 100 days of slaughter
In just 100 days in 1994, some 800,000 people were slaughtered in Rwanda by ethnic Hutu extremists - how did the genocide happen?www.bbc.com
I don't think we should bury the past or sugar coat it. It should be acknowledged and discussed in a logical context to assure it doesn't happen again. But without a doubt a 100 year old massacre is not relevant to the current day climate in society in America. American has done Bad things and Good things. Just like Every Country and Civilization in the world has, it's called human nature.
We have plenty of Work to do right now all over the world. The Internment of Japanese Americans is more recent than the Tulsa Massacre. So why are we so focused on Tulsa now?
Japanese Internment Camps: WWII, Life & Conditions | HISTORY
Japanese internment camps were established during World War II by President Franklin D. Roosevelt through his Executive Order 9066. From 1942 to 1945, it was the policy of the U.S. government that people of Japanese descent, including U.S. citizens, be incarcerated.
If people want to go down the Rabbit Hole of past injustices then it will be a never ending emotional rollercoaster of blame, discord and not moving forward to improve the here and now.
I'd have no issue with a vetting of people who are direct descendants and them receiving some monetary reparations from the loss of generational wealth. But once that is done everyone that is involved needs to move forward with life.
3R, how about reparations from the insurance companies that failed to pay off on legitimate claims, or reparations from the families of the airplane pilots that dropped burning barrels of turpentine on women and children.
I see deflection to Chinese Muslims or Indigenous Americans but not any discussion about, not where it ends, but where it starts. What you're really asking is how long before they start taking my money. I think we're better people than that..
I see deflection to Chinese Muslims or Indigenous Americans but not any discussion about, not where it ends, but where it starts. What you're really asking is how long before they start taking my money. I think we're better people than that..
No I literally said study it and learn form it to make sure it never happens again....but not to make it a emotionally charged issue because it has no relevance to modern day society. That era is over and civilization has evolved past it.
I even said payment to descendants are a worthy cause.
So how in the Heck do you see my response as sweeping it under the rug. Maybe you are all for some Emotional Response and weaponizing the event and punishing and demeaning people who where not even born when the incident happened. Does that give you some cathartic release? Do you require a pound of flesh for every past atrocity?
No I'm pointing out that still a lot of bad stuff happens right now and that it is what we should be focused on and what we should be working to correct.
Outside of Reparations there is NOTHING we can do about the Tulsa Massacre other than some people getting emotionally amped up and demanding some form of punishment to meet their warped sense of justice. Literally nothing can be done about the Massacre it is history.
Also there is nothing you can do about Hate.....Period. NO amount of Ad campaigns, marching, education, or lecturing is going to get rid of hate. In fact psychologically that type of approach often is seen as a attack and re-enforces and galvanizes those thought patterns.
The best approach to reducing that type of trait is to covertly expose people to ideas in a manner in which they come to the right conclusion on their own. Gene Roddenberry was a master at this. Other people in the world entertainment & literature used analogy and allegories to great effect . Now the approach is to scream yell and beat people over the head with a hammer based on their demographic. The outcome is going to be the very opposite of what they want to happen.
There is plenty of money for this.....I mean just look at the Pork in every budget passed every year and all the stupid Crap we pay for..
2024 Congressional Pig Book
If we really wanted to heal the issue then I'm sure we could cut out some of this stupid waste and give it to those who actually was robbed of generational wealth.
I find it so strange that many on here are against paying the debt owned. But on the same token many of you are 100% committed to Getting Over Emotional and Pizzed off about something that none of us had any part in and I'm sure 100% of us on this board would fight to stop from happening.
Getting worked up and ranting about the issue is easy.....actually doing something and putting skin in the game is harder and more noble. But I do understand you and me had nothing to do with it and legally and morally we shouldn't be obligated. But ending the issue is worth it for me and in some cases promises where made and should be paid.
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Again I didn't deflect....I clearly Said I am for Reparations....the debt should be paid. But let's not turn this into some Over emotional BS movement that has nothing to do with the people alive today. Pay the Bill. And I'm on record on this board that we should pay the Bill to the descendants of former slaves.....100,000 grand and a Kawasaki mule ATV. Then the debt is paid.
I do hope you see that Clearly the current atrocities of people who are actually suffering as we speak are more important than past atrocities to people who have long sense passed and are no longer suffering.
Also when it comes to money NOPE we are not better people than that that it is human nature that everyone has priorities. Everyone's money is his/her own and Everyone has the right to not want the Gov. to spend money on certain things. I have a long list of stuff I despise that the gov. spends money on. From Most entitlement programs, to NPR, etc. But that is not my call when the budget is voted on and signed. I vote and my Senators and Rep. do the haggling.
And Let's not forget you Moral values are not the moral values of others and you have no right to assume you have moral Superiority either. Playing Devils Advocate: Plenty of people would see any form of reparations as a waste of money and not necessary because those people who suffered the wrongs are long gone. Nobody alive today was responsible for those actions and therefore they are under no moral obligation to make amends for past sins. And opening Pandora's box might lead to a never ending payout to every darn person on American Soil. Leaving a open wound that might never ever heal.
I on the other hand support paying the debts owed and then Being hardcore that the issues are over in both regards, now that payment has been rendered we must move on as a country.
I did laugh at how he said reparations for the Families of the Pilots who dropped the burning Barrels. But I think you like me got his drift.
So if we are going to pay back every race for the bad this country has done to them shouldn’t we start at the beginning with the native Americans and work our way forward?
I said from the families of the pilots, not for. You guys are easily confused, I get that.
Arcola, again with the native-americans. It starts with Columbus in 1492 and we can't fix that. We can fix Tulsa..
From 1776 to 1890 I read they estimate 100,000 to 150,000 native Americans killed. Possibly 90% of their race. And we lied and cheated them out of their land. I’ve seen Indian reservations First hand and they are more miserable than the inner city.
Estimates run as high as there being up to 60 million indigenous people in the Americas at the time of Columbus. More died of disease brought over by Europeans than were killed by guns.
Still, an estimated 10 million Plains Indians remained as late as 1800. By the end of the century, a little over 200,000 remained.
Still, an estimated 10 million Plains Indians remained as late as 1800. By the end of the century, a little over 200,000 remained.
Estimates are all over the place on how many was here when Columbus came. I think the History Channel estimated 10-15 Million
No we conquered them, they did fight back and lost. Conquered people don't get reparations they get to assimilate to the group that is Victories. Simple as that. The concessions of tribal land, mineral rights and the ability to have duty free Casino's etc. is payment enough. Although I do think a complete investigation of the system needs to be done going back generations, because I do know that big Companies did then and still try and shaft some of the tribal nations, which is wrong. Any of this that is found out should be punished and reparations of any fraud should repaid the Native Americans.
But again the Native Americans where a conquered people, defeated by a stronger and more advanced civilization and you don't repay that debt. Ever.
Oh man....I surely hope you are kidding....I am Creek Indian...I wonder if my Great Grandmother would agree with your perspective...She was 100% Creek lost her entire family in what some call just a little march to Oklahoma.
Why don't you sign your name to that.
Would you like to come down and give your white man perspective of history to all how this went down to a few tribes....
Your perspective on history is exactly why we have issues in what we are teaching today. When learning about history you always are taught the white perspective of how things went down... you know white washed...
When I was a child we would go back to Eufaula OK several times a year, I even stayed a few nights with my great Grandmother.
What I remember most as a kid is she smoked a tobacco pipe the tobacco was home grown... and didn't speak any English, the elders as they called them would all sit around and tell stories, in Creek.
I still have my quilt that she made for me as a child.
I'm not saying what we did was Just or Right, but we conquered the Native Americans. Just like Rome Conquered half the known world etc. etc. And my Great Grandma Came off a Okie reservation. And my Grandma First Husband was a Native American. I told them the same darn thing. They couldn't really say much cause it was truth.
And No Conquered people is ever going to like those who where victories. I don't know how being upfront and saying we simply conquered them and took from them what we wanted is White Washing anything. In fact it's brutally honest. We didn't do it to bring civilization to the savages which was the BS white washing of that time...we did it because we needed land and resources and a lot of money was to be made. And that was pretty much what I was taught in High school and college
And as I said I am 100% for making sure Native Americans are getting what was promised to them through their deals with the Federal and State gov. But not reparations.
I hate to agree, but I do. Nearly every single civilization ever in existence in the past and those still in existence owed their very existence to conquest in some way or another. Even the ones who were eventually conquered. The idea of reparations to certain groups and not others becomes reduced to absurdity when looked at in this light. It’s not an empathetic point of view, but it’s a logical one.
And there are not enough logical people out there, now it's all about emotion and righting some supposed wrong and making people pay that had nothing to do with the situation.
As I said the reason I'm for Reparations for the ancestors of slaves is simple and two fold. A promise was made and then reversed.....horrible and immoral. So we should pay the debt, even though none of us alive had anything to do with it and in truth are not responsible per say but once we pay it we can and our descendants can be resolute that we have payed our debt and that now everyone is on equal ground and life can move forward as opposed to looking backward in a victim like manner to the past.
As I said the reason I'm for Reparations for the ancestors of slaves is simple and two fold. A promise was made and then reversed.....horrible and immoral. So we should pay the debt, even though none of us alive had anything to do with it and in truth are not responsible per say but once we pay it we can and our descendants can be resolute that we have payed our debt and that now everyone is on equal ground and life can move forward as opposed to looking backward in a victim like manner to the past.
How do you decide who gets it and how much? No matter how it shakes out there will still be a lot of people claiming they deserved more than they got.
If you want some $$ just prove you are a descendent of a American Slave. Sure some people will want the cash and not get it. And yes you will never satisfy everyone and someone will feel cheated. But less so than now.
Of course the best case scenario would be for everyone to be a adult and look at this logically and say nobody alive today was a slave, and nobody alive today owned a slave. And in truth almost all the wealth accumulated from the Old South was Carpetbagged and redistributed to White Yankee's.
But in this day and age we seem to have to satisfy every emotional burr, and again a promise was made. And it was broken big time....
As far as the amount well the estimate is between 640 billion for the 40 acres and mule to 16.4 trillion if you are going with lost wages etc. model. There are some variables to be worked out. Depends on how many of the 42 million Blacks in America are descendants of slaves as well. Good records where kept. They rated slaves Al Prime hand and then reduced down one quarter scale...Slaves where gifted, mortgaged, deeded and sold. Itemized and insured the way people manage assets today. I've read anywhere from 13 million to a little over 25 million of blacks today in America are descendants of slaves. Some of the leaders want payment for all because they say it's not fair that those blacks who came after and also endured systemic racism.
I would not be for payment to non-descendants of slaves. Those who came after came voluntarily. And never endured slavery. Many ethnic groups from the Irish to the Jews of endured bigotry and systemic hardships in the past.... so nope you can't pay everyone for every injustices.
Of course the best case scenario would be for everyone to be a adult and look at this logically and say nobody alive today was a slave, and nobody alive today owned a slave. And in truth almost all the wealth accumulated from the Old South was Carpetbagged and redistributed to White Yankee's.
But in this day and age we seem to have to satisfy every emotional burr, and again a promise was made. And it was broken big time....
As far as the amount well the estimate is between 640 billion for the 40 acres and mule to 16.4 trillion if you are going with lost wages etc. model. There are some variables to be worked out. Depends on how many of the 42 million Blacks in America are descendants of slaves as well. Good records where kept. They rated slaves Al Prime hand and then reduced down one quarter scale...Slaves where gifted, mortgaged, deeded and sold. Itemized and insured the way people manage assets today. I've read anywhere from 13 million to a little over 25 million of blacks today in America are descendants of slaves. Some of the leaders want payment for all because they say it's not fair that those blacks who came after and also endured systemic racism.
I would not be for payment to non-descendants of slaves. Those who came after came voluntarily. And never endured slavery. Many ethnic groups from the Irish to the Jews of endured bigotry and systemic hardships in the past.... so nope you can't pay everyone for every injustices.
On a lighter note this is funny stuff...
babylonbee.com
babylonbee.com
Half-Black Man Ordered To Pay Himself Reparations
SAN JOSE, CA—Local half-white, half-black man Michael Preston has been ordered to pay himself reparations since half his ancestors were oppressed and half were oppressors.
babylonbee.com
Democrats Demand Republicans Pay Them Reparations For Freeing Their Slaves
WASHINGTON, D.C.—Democrats in Washington are demanding reparations from the Republican Party for the massive financial losses of Democrats following the emancipation of the slaves.
babylonbee.com
