Again, by that rationale the Classification separation is punishing success too (if you can't see that you are contradicting yourself, why even waste my breath...)
Recommendation from Public-Nonpublic MSHSAA committee
- Thread starter panther72
- Start date
Easy there tiger.
Public schools play with the hand they are dealt. Private school can cherry pick.
Who has the advantage?
Listen, I could write 50 analogies of why private school have the upper hand, no matter how large a multiplier is placed on them.
I was not too pleased when I read the all-state soccer awards and saw where they chose a Public school Coach of the Year and a Private School Coach of the Year.
We should have a public school champion and a private school champion.
Public schools play with the hand they are dealt. Private school can cherry pick.
Who has the advantage?
Listen, I could write 50 analogies of why private school have the upper hand, no matter how large a multiplier is placed on them.
I was not too pleased when I read the all-state soccer awards and saw where they chose a Public school Coach of the Year and a Private School Coach of the Year.
We should have a public school champion and a private school champion.
I'm for a rule saying if you live in Kansas you can't play for a Missouri state championship.
So if you need assistance you shouldn't have access to a religious based education, or the freedom to choose what you think is best for your child?
Didn't realize that public school was "free." My tax rate, and the constant bitching that they need more money would indicate otherwise.
Kids transfer school to school in both public and non-public. Big deal. To be the best, you have to beat the best period.
I still love the comment "to be the best you have to beat the best." Work with a kid for 5 years middle through high school and then they transfer to a private and you should now beat that kid.
I still love the comment "to be the best you have to beat the best." Work with a kid for 5 years middle through high school and then they transfer to a private and you should now beat that kid.
I agree and I prefer they are in, but the playing field needs to be level with public schools.
I would be ok with forcing winning programs up one class. I don't think it fair to force them up multiple classes for winning. Using Lamar for example, I think they would welcome a move to class 3. Most likely they would be successful the next couple of years. This current group has a chance to be the best Lamar has had but I don't think it is fair to force future groups to play class 4 because this group is successful in class 3. We all like to hate on Valle but is it fair to make them play class 3 because they have success in 2?
I don't think the 2016 Lamar Tigers should have to play in Class 3 just because their alumni won a title in Class 2. Unless Skylar Thompson is coming back should Fort Osage be Class 6? I realize some teams find a way to reload but Lamar does not have an unfair advantage over anyone else in Class 2.
I understand the multiplier for private schools but I do not like separate private and public school divisions for football.
As a fan I would love to see Valle in C2 competing with Lamar and I think it is great they are meeting in the regular season.
2 ideas
1. Only players who are legal residents of the state of Missouri can play in district and state tournaments.
2. The enrollment number for classification of private schools and public deseg and magnet schools are simply the total of all the districts they draw athletes from.
1. Only players who are legal residents of the state of Missouri can play in district and state tournaments.
2. The enrollment number for classification of private schools and public deseg and magnet schools are simply the total of all the districts they draw athletes from.
I wouldn't be for forcing them to move up a class because they won, but I would love to see it as optional for the AD and football coaching staff to decide.
At Webb for example, after four or five straight titles and knowing that the conference they play in is all class 5 and 6 teams, they very well might have been ready to voluntarily move themselves up a class by 2014 or 2015. Lamar's kids might be begging Coach Bailey to let them take a shot at a Class 3 title next year.
Valle could take a long hard look at themselves and say let's go for it!
At Webb for example, after four or five straight titles and knowing that the conference they play in is all class 5 and 6 teams, they very well might have been ready to voluntarily move themselves up a class by 2014 or 2015. Lamar's kids might be begging Coach Bailey to let them take a shot at a Class 3 title next year.
Valle could take a long hard look at themselves and say let's go for it!
This is sublimely brilliant! Separate the men from the boys (those who WANT more of a challenge after four or five ateIght titles, and those who are content to be the biggest fish in the smallest pond...)
Those ADs who are unwilling to move up can answer the critics with their reasoning...
LeBlond and St. Joe Christian are pretty similar in St. Joe. They are both pretty much mission based. LeBlond draws from the Catholic grade schools. SJC draws from the protestant churches in St. Joe. Both have had success here and there in sports, but not any more than any of their public counterparts. SJC has been in Class 2 in basketball anytime there enrollment reaches about 100. This year they have 80 kids, but only had 3 girls go out for basketball (so they are co-oping with LeBlond). LeBlond was in the same district as Savannah and Lafayette for Academic team. They were penalized by the multiplier and would have been in Class 2 against similar sized schools instead of ones 3-4 times the size.
Disclaimer: I have had children in both schools, so I might be biased. However, neither school is getting a competitive advantage by being private. I have seen kids actually leave SJC once they get into high school solely because of sports.
The problem is that you are creating a bigger problem for many other people. I know that many people go to St. Joe Christian who get financial assistance to do so. And they are not doing it for sports. It is being done for educational (and spiritual) reasons. By banning it you are creating a bigger problem than the one you are solving. And before you say that they could just go to the public school, the St. Joseph School District is not considered an option for many parents (like yours truly).
And the FREE public school in my district is horrible. I paid for a student to go to St. Joe Christian for 5 years until I had all 3 of my kids attending either LeBlond or SJC and could no longer afford it. I was happy to do so because it gave some kid a chance of a better education. I will probably do it again once my kids are out of college.
So the private schools that have less than 100 students should play against those that have more than 1000? Yes, that makes sense.
You definitely read between the lines, congrats! Fwiw, I do believe Webb and Lamar are two programs that would've or would be going for the "let's play a class up now" and others would be impressed with their gusto.
I don't think a school should ever move up a class just for winning. If your on an even playing field and you win because you have created a program "the right way" the kids shouldn't have to move up a class. Dominate your competition and be proud of your success.
That's not what I said. Let anyone attend you beloved school, I DON'T CARE, BUT A KANSAS KID SHOULD NOT BE PLAYING FOR A MISSOURI CHAMPIONSHIP NO MATTER WHAT.
P.S. I appreciate you taxes paying for public education, since this is your choice. That's like complaining about your tax rate including public libraries even though you never use them.
Finally your use of curse words is inappropriate, now go do 10 Hail Mary's.
I believe my response was to Hangman, but thanks for playing. Further, if you read my posts on this thread I excluded Rockhurst as they are not impacted by the multiplier, but rather used St. Pius as my reference point. Not sure why you felt the need to reply in all caps and the reference to Kansas kids playing for a MO championship. Nowhere in this thread did anyone other than you bring up Kansas kids.
You obviously have an issue with Rockhurst as they are one of the very few schools that have Kansas kids on their roster.
Apologies for the confusion, next time I'll type slower.
Now it's off to Mass, followed by making a deposit at my local library after hours book drop.
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If that happens at least one class will have more than 64 teams.
The only thing I would like to see changed is taking enrollment from 8th - 11th grade, similar to what Iowa does. It makes no sense to use outgoing Senior class enrollment for classifications.
how about if a public school is failing or unaccredited or their students are not proficient in reading and math, they are put into their own class.
If the private schools are so dominate not really sure why they would want to stay with the inept MSHSAA, really not offering much. Break off, get some smart forward thinking people to run it. Let them recruit and offer scholarship, spring football, etc. BRING IT.
If the private schools are so dominate not really sure why they would want to stay with the inept MSHSAA, really not offering much. Break off, get some smart forward thinking people to run it. Let them recruit and offer scholarship, spring football, etc. BRING IT.
The whole argument of private vs public schools and their competitive advantage is debatable, at best (as it applies to football). It holds a bit more water when applied to basketball, as you really don't need as many "recruits" to make a serious impact.. That aside, the whole premise of this topic is still, "You guys are winning too many championships. Let's change the rules so someone else has a chance." And that, sounds like classic Lib-tard philosphy.
So you paid for another student, who could not afford it, the tuition to a private school? Did this kid play sports? I would like to hear why your public school is so bad?
I think I agreed with your thoughts until your last idiotic sentence. Credibility lost.
I wasn't playing you old fool.
No issues with rockhurst, my issue is with any school playing for a Missouri Championship with players from another state.
You type pretty slow now with the hunt and peck method.
You need to go to mass and ask God to forgive you for being so stupid.
Don't try and make us believe you can read either.
Finally I know who you were replying to it was Quoted in your post, but it doesn't mean others can't respond to it.
You need not respond, save your breath for your blow up doll.
Now I feel better so I apologize for some of my comments.
And?
4 Classes with 75 teams and one as the catch-all.
They did it that way 15 years ago before there was a Class 6. Since whoever started this thread has an issue with private schools, just as an example, if Class 1 had 75 teams in it you add Malden and Brentwood to the mix on the East side. May not have made any difference, maybe it would, who knows?
How else might you describe this premise? The "let's make it fair becasue we can't compete" and "how about we don't keep score but just give everyone participation medals" is classic Liberal ideology in print. Sorry if I struck a nerve.
The 6-class system was set up perfectly when 3-4 teams were being added each cycle. Until 2-4 years ago it looked like Class 5 would fill with 64 teams and then Class 6 would add teams. With things going the other way lately we may get back to rolling Class 5 & 6 back together.
Leave politics out of it. I have seen plenty of children from conservative families gladly except those trophies. They must not be taught very well. Sorry if i struck a nerve.
From 2002-2015 they have had 6 classes plus 8-man. Public school's have won 81 championships and Private school's 17 Championships. In the previous 14 seasons from 1988-2001 Public school's won 64 championships and Private school's won 22 championships. So in the past 28 years Publics have a 145-39 advantage in winning state football titles.
OK. Good point. I'll refrain from labeling the premise of this thread with any political identifier. That's kinda like breaking the unwritten rules, anyway. No politics and no religion talk. That leaves me with the question, who's really got a problem with how it's set up now and what is their real agenda for changing it. Other than the private school argument?
With those numbers you need to find the percentage. If you have say a ratio of private school at 10% and public 90% then championships should be the same too. But if the championships are like 20% private and 80% public then private schools have an advantage.
Titles by Class since 2002.
8-man Public 13 Private 1
Class 1 Public 8 Private 6
Class 2 Public 11 Private 3
Class 3 Public 12 Private 2
Class 4 Public 14 Private 0
Class 5 Public 14 Private 0
Class 6 Public 9 Private 5
I would say that the problem if any lies in upper end enrollment advantage than it does in public vs. private school advantage.
8-man Public 13 Private 1
Class 1 Public 8 Private 6
Class 2 Public 11 Private 3
Class 3 Public 12 Private 2
Class 4 Public 14 Private 0
Class 5 Public 14 Private 0
Class 6 Public 9 Private 5
I would say that the problem if any lies in upper end enrollment advantage than it does in public vs. private school advantage.
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Personally I have no problem with the current set up nor an agenda to change it, I just feel that Missouri kids should play for Missouri championships.
Why? Are kids from Kansas or Illinois better athletes? You do have an agenda, otherwise you wouldn't care where the kids were from that played for a MSHSAA member school (that abides by association rules).
Don't hurt yourself trying to come up with a cogent explanation.
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