Recommendation from Public-Nonpublic MSHSAA committee

[panther72]

Public-Nonpublic –



1) Recommended the Board of Directors place the following topic on the agenda for the Area Meetings in January: The 1.35 Multiplier for Non-Public and Charter Schools, with the following questions:

1) Does the membership still want it?

2) Does the membership want to adjust it?

3) Does the membership want different multipliers for different sports?


2) Recommended the Board of Directors place the following topic on the agenda for the Area Meetings in January: Should the member schools look at the following instead of the multiplier? 1) Frequency (Championship Appearances) Factors for teams to move up one

classification in a sport if they advance to the final four in multiple years.

2) Changing enrollment gathering and classifications to an annual basis rather than every other year.

 

[Stevedangos]

So if Webb goes final 4 two years in a row they move to class5,,,,they go to two semifinals in class5 they get moved up to class6???? (Very likely)

Some people brain dead

 

[Mitsurugi san]

So if Webb goes final 4 two years in a row they move to class5,,,,they go to two semifinals in class5 they get moved up to class6???? (Very likely)

Some people brain dead

Sounds like the above only applies to private schools (so they are thinking more along the lines of Valle and JBS given their recent frequency in the dome...)

 

[Stevedangos]

Well if they are putting the screws to private schools I am all for that

 

[bullitpdq68]

With private & charter schools I really am not well informed. Does the Multiplier usually force all private and charter schools to bump up a class? Not picking on private schools, but if you are a private school that at times has out of state kids enrolled and are not restricted to district boarders or even state boarders and can compete against public schools in sports who are restricted by district boarders, then I think you need to force all private schools up a class. So if a school by enrollment is class 2 they get bumped to class 3, and that should be all sports. That would also put an end to private schools in class 1 in all sports, which at times seems to be the biggest complaint on this board?

And forget about the frequency of championships that could be just a cycle thing especially in public schools. So why punish kids that come in later that might not be as talented as those before them? But that being said maybe we again look at private schools, if one is domiant

Changing enrollment gathering to yearly, yep that should be done.

 

[wcfanfourever]

Kansas does their yearly and only a few weeks after school starts. If they can do it must be a no brainer.

 

[Rufus R. Jones]

Public-Nonpublic –



1) Recommended the Board of Directors place the following topic on the agenda for the Area Meetings in January: The 1.35 Multiplier for Non-Public and Charter Schools, with the following questions:

1) Does the membership still want it?

2) Does the membership want to adjust it?

3) Does the membership want different multipliers for different sports?


2) Recommended the Board of Directors place the following topic on the agenda for the Area Meetings in January: Should the member schools look at the following instead of the multiplier? 1) Frequency (Championship Appearances) Factors for teams to move up one

classification in a sport if they advance to the final four in multiple years.

2) Changing enrollment gathering and classifications to an annual basis rather than every other year.

They should add:
3) Recommend the people using the same old tired excuses for their own lack of success should continue their quest in other ways and quit tinkering with the classification and playoff system.

 

[blue and white pride]

From 1968 thru 1987 they figured enrollments every year. They made it work once they can do it again.

 

[wcfanfourever]

they could just turn it over to a group of MoSports posters composed of Guys (or AD) having over 5000 posts.

Couple of sides of ribs and some adult beverages we could have it done on a Friday night

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

The first year of the multiplier, I went from the smallest 3a program in the state to the biggest 2a school after the multiplier was put in. It makes a difference with both public and no-public. Personally, leave it as is and let the cards fall where they do. Kids transfer school to school in both public and non-public. Big deal. To be the best, you have to beat the best period.

 

[bullitpdq68]

The first year of the multiplier, I went from the smallest 3a program in the state to the biggest 2a school after the multiplier was put in. It makes a difference with both public and no-public. Personally, leave it as is and let the cards fall where they do. Kids transfer school to school in both public and non-public. Big deal. To be the best, you have to beat the best period.

You say that but here is SWMO it is a big deal we are rural areas, you have to pull up and move, selling your home moving miles just to sometimes go to a public school that offers what you are looking for your child. And there are not that many private school options around this area as most private schools in this area truly are based on education and do not offer sports. I know it is not like that in the KC and StLouis areas. Were right around the corner could be a private or public school that offers what you want for you child and you don't have to move or public schools boarders are blurred.

 

[Mitsurugi san]

They should add:
3) Recommend the people using the same old tired excuses for their own lack of success should continue their quest in other ways and quit tinkering with the classification and playoff system.

I would think that the teams who are winning 4 and 5 consecutive titles in a single class would WANT the challenge of trying the next class up (I know I would...)

Maryville did it, and Harrisonville has gotten close (and neither of them are even private!)

 

[10=1]

This topic is exactly why our society is weak-minded.

Private schools win too many games so we should just penalize them because it's not fair to the rest of us publics. It's not fair that privates can do this and privates can do that? Guess what, life isn't fair. Get over it!

If it upsets you so much, then just move to a state where it is consider "fair" in your opinion.

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

You say that but here is SWMO it is a big deal we are rural areas, you have to pull up and move, selling your home moving miles just to sometimes go to a public school that offers what you are looking for your child. And there are not that many private school options around this area as most private schools in this area truly are based on education and do not offer sports. I know it is not like that in the KC and StLouis areas. Were right around the corner could be a private or public school that offers what you want for you child and you don't have to move or public schools boarders are blurred.

What exactly are you looking for in your child?

 

[Stevedangos]

I just hate to see our girls basketball team work their tails off and then run into Incarnate Word and have not even a chance to win. I don't think you could take the best players off of the other three final four teams and beat them

 

[Mitsurugi san]

This topic is exactly why our society is weak-minded.

Private schools win too many games so we should just penalize them because it's not fair to the rest of us publics.

I almost always fall on the side of the debate that complains about the "participation trophy affect", but what we are talking about here is much different than that:

Private schools have several built in advantages simply because they are private; these rules are meat to offset those advantages.

Without such rules, someone could literally start a private school called "The Missouri Football Academy" that only accepts male football players of the best caliber from anywhere in the state and whose only extra curricular activity is football (and maybe weightlifting), giving them an enrollment of less than 150 kids (I believe that such schools, or close to it, actually exist in other states...)

I take it you're ok with a school like this owning Class1 year after year (Because without rules like the above, this is what happens).

And no, I am not referring to Valle (although you know those comparisons are coming whether I say anything or not )

 

[10=1]

I almost always fall on the side of the debate that complains about the "participation trophy affect", but what we are talking about here is much different than that:

Private schools have several built in advantages simply because they are private; these rules are meat to offset those advantages.

Without such rules, someone could literally start a private school called "The Missouri Football Academy" that only accepts male football players of the best caliber from anywhere in the state and whose only extra curricular activity is football (and maybe weightlifting), giving them an enrollment of less than 150 kids (I believe that such schools, or close to it, actually exist in other states...)

I take it you're ok with a school like this owning Class1 year after year (Because without rules like the above, this is what happens).

And no, I am not referring to Valle (although you know those comparisons are coming whether I say anything or not )

This is what happens? Name one school that is like that. There are none.

Could it happen? Of course. But if it were so easy, it would have already happened. You are simply blowing it way out of proportion.

 

[trolleyof85]

You are leaving out some very important advantages that private schools have.

I am going to go out on a limb that private schools have a much smaller percentage of students on IEP's, low income families, and even single parent homes. While many schools like Valley have a ton of success because their kids work hard and their coaches are very good, are at a major advantage because of these factors. Anyone who doesn't think they are, simply haven't taught or coached.

 

[Mitsurugi san]

This is what happens? Name one school that is like that. There are none.

Google IMG Academy (DROPS THE MIC!)

 

[10=1]

Google IMG Academy (DROPS THE MIC!)

Oh so now we are turning our attention to Florida.

 

[10=1]

I was under the impression I was on a Missouri High School Football Message Board.

 

[Mitsurugi san]

I was under the impression I was on a Missouri High School Football Message Board.

IMG is what happens when you DON'T have the kind of rules we are discussing here (but by all means, keep thinking you're right...)

BTW: I'm not suggesting they adopt this particular new rule about consecutive final four appearances for privates, I'm just saying your suggestion (that seeking to do ANYTHING AT ALL to level the playing field for privates makes one weak or a whiny baby) is uninformed.

 

[MORock]

Well if they are putting the screws to private schools I am all for that

Doesn't seem like the private schools have caused Webb much problem. Quite a bit of vitriol in your message, any particular reason you think they ought to be screwed?

I'm a Rockhurst guy, but am leaving them out of the discussion (totally different animal). Honestly, the St. Pius's of the world are the ones hurt by the multiplier. These schools are resource challenged, and contrary to popular opinion really don't control the number of kids coming in the door or not. They are heavily mission based (I'd put good money on there being very few non-Catholic kids being in attendance), and like their public school counterparts draw heavily from their neighborhood Catholic feeder grade schools. Unfortunately, many of the small out-state communities don't have a clue about these dynamics and think that just because they have success then there must be cheating, etc. If the goal is to put the screws to these small Catholic schools then I must say well done.

 

[10=1]

IMG is what happens when you DON'T have the kind of rules we are discussing here (but by all means, keep thinking you're right...)

BTW: I'm not suggesting they adopt this particular new rule about consecutive final four appearances for privates, I'm just saying your suggestion (that seeking to do ANYTHING AT ALL to level the playing field for privates makes one weak or a whiny baby) is uninformed.

MSHSAA has been around for 89 years (1926) and you only now want to change the rules so Missouri doesn't acquire an IMG Academy?

Makes sense.

 

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

I just hate to see our girls basketball team work their tails off and then run into Incarnate Word and have not even a chance to win. I don't think you could take the best players off of the other three final four teams and beat them

IMO that Incarnate Word team a few years ago was the most dominant team in any team sport that Missouri has had. Can you imagine a team with back-ups that are division 1 prospects? I would say if you took the best 12 basketball players in the state that at least 6 and as many as 8 of them on one team. I know we are getting off topic.

I don't think the current system is broke for football but tweak the multiplier enough to make Valle-Lamar play in the dome because that is what the fans want to see...

Seriously I think the 8 team playoffs with seeding has been working great and I'm not saying that because I am a Webb City fan. The only tweaks I would like to see is the team with the higher district points host the quarterfinal and the option of swapping semifinal games if by district points it can work out that 2 best teams meet in the dome. That is of course without a team needing to drive 7.5 hours to play that game.

 

[10=1]

Doesn't seem like the private schools have caused Webb much problem. Quite a bit of vitriol in your message, any particular reason you think they ought to be screwed?

I'm a Rockhurst guy, but am leaving them out of the discussion (totally different animal). Honestly, the St. Pius's of the world are the ones hurt by the multiplier. These schools are resource challenged, and contrary to popular opinion really don't control the number of kids coming in the door or not. They are heavily mission based (I'd put good money on there being very few non-Catholic kids being in attendance), and like their public school counterparts draw heavily from their neighborhood Catholic feeder grade schools. Unfortunately, many of the small out-state communities don't have a clue about these dynamics and think that just because they have success then there must be cheating, etc. If the goal is to put the screws to these small Catholic schools then I must say well done.

Or Lamar. Or Maryville. Or BSS. Or Fort Osage. Or Kearney. I can keep on going...

 

[Mitsurugi san]

MSHSAA has been around for 89 years (1926) and you only now want to change the rules so Missouri doesn't acquire an IMG Academy?

Makes sense.

How long has the multiplier been in place (and why do you think they added it?)

If the multiplier was added solely for the purposes of keeping good teams down, then why only add it for privates and not for teams like Webb, Lamar, Harrisonville etc...?

 

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

How long has the multiplier been in place (and why do you think they added it?)

If the multiplier was added solely for the purposes of keeping good teams down, then why only add it for privates and not for teams like Webb, Lamar, Harrisonville etc...?

Heck. Let's add to to everybody...

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

The only problem I have with the Non-public schools are that in most cases..... The elite athletes are not paying to attend the school. Tuition waivers and scholarships need to be banned from private schools. If families elect to go there, pay for it and monitor that. As far as Valle, public school Marceline had them on the ropes until the very end of the game.

 

[MORock]

How long has the multiplier been in place (and why do you think they added it?)

If the multiplier was added solely for the purposes of keeping good teams down, then why only add it for privates and not for teams like Webb, Lamar, Harrisonville etc...?

I will preface this statement with I am not including Rockhurst in my defense of Privates - large private schools in major metro areas are different animals.

What I am going to say will be roundly derided. I think that the reason for the spite (and additional rules) driven largely by the rural/out-state communities has quite a bit to do with class envy (i.e. Pembroke Hill, MICDS, etc. "rich kids"), and a bit of southern anti-Catholic bigotry. The small private schools are primarily Catholic, are resource ($$$) challenged (the reason they don't accept IEP students), and for the most part struggle year in and out to first, just keep the doors open. What you have with many of these schools is two and three generations of families, and high-levels of two parent family support in all facets of the school. Talent of course will win the day, but parental involvement cannot be discounted, and if you are paying tuition then you will likely be involved.

Not meant to offend, but just my opinion.

Finally, the public schools - especially those 4A and below will never be able to compete in the Country Club Sports. For certain sports I would also include the large classes as well. If you want to split divisions then I would consider it for Golf, Lacrosse, Swimming, Tennis, and Soccer. In the case of Soccer just for the small classes. These sports are driven by money, and the kid in KC or St. Louis growing up with access to the country club, private lessons, etc. just have too big of an advantage. The playing field is not level. It isn't a function of recruiting or cheating, but one of economics.

 

[Mitsurugi san]

Heck. Let's add to to everybody...

My point was simply that they added the multiplier to level the playing field for privates (which 10=1 claims to be opposed to in any way shape or form...)

 

[MORock]

The only problem I have with the Non-public schools are that in most cases..... The elite athletes are not paying to attend the school. Tuition waivers and scholarships need to be banned from private schools. If families elect to go there, pay for it and monitor that. As far as Valle, public school Marceline had them on the ropes until the very end of the game.

Just absolutely untrue - at least in KC. If a kid is getting assistance then no. 1 it is based solely on need (the Church does have a mission to care for its poor), and no. 2 it would be highly unusual for it to be 100%, and likely there would be work study, or reciprocal services being provided. The schools just can't afford it.

 

[Mitsurugi san]

Just absolutely untrue - at least in KC. If a kid is getting assistance then no. 1 it is based solely on need (the Church does have a mission to care for its poor), and no. 2 it would be highly unusual for it to be 100%, and likely there would be work study, or reciprocal services being provided. The schools just can't afford it.

Quite often (not always) it's a private sponsor (usually an alum) and not the school whose funding some of these kids...(i.e.: Recruiting)

 

[MORock]

Quite often (not always) it's a private sponsor (usually an alum) and not the school whose funding some of these kids...(i.e.: Recruiting)

I will speak for Rockhurst in this case - they are very, very sensitive to this type of activity for the obvious reason that it would cause the school harm. Honestly, I can probably tell you more stories about the 8th grade/or freshman superstar whose parents think is ticketed for Saturday or Sunday stardom that generally leaves the school after freshman year. Number one, the academics kill them and number two they find out that there are 10 other kids that are just as fast, maybe as big, and 7 of them are willing to work harder.

No great answers, and generally I think people are well intentioned. There just isn't the level of cheating/recruiting, etc. happening (at least in KC) that many might imagine. I will say however that sadly today that the less advantaged schools (Urban primarily) have absolutely no chance to compete. Private lessons, sport specialization, year around travel/club teams, etc. have made it very hard for a good kid with athletic skill -albeit raw - to compete. Heart breaking actually.

 

[10=1]

My point was simply that they added the multiplier to level the playing field for privates (which 10=1 claims to be opposed to in any way shape or form...)

And that was my point all along. They added the multiplier and to you all, that's not enough.

Next you'll be begging for private schools to only be allowed to play with 10. Or only get 3 downs instead of 4.

Penalize success. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Mitsurugi san]

Penalize success. Makes perfect sense.

I take it you're opposed to Classes then, too? (Based on you rationale...)

Isn't the whole point of Classes in general to ensure that schools with a similar sized talent pool to pull from play against each other? (How dare MSHSAA level the playing field in this manner! )

 

[10=1]

I take it you're opposed to Classes then, too? (Based on you rationale...)

Isn't the whole point of Classes in general to ensure that schools with a similar sized talent pool to pull from play against each other? (How dare MSHSAA level the playing field in this manner! )

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said I was opposed to classes. Nor came off that way. Simply said that penalizing success makes zero sense.

But you sure are all for it. Those participation trophies must be getting bigger and bigger every year.

 

[Mitsurugi san]

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said I was opposed to classes. Nor came off that way. Simply said that penalizing success makes zero sense.

Much like MoRock has already pointed out, the multiplier doesn't ONLY apply to the SUCCESSFUL private schools; it applies to ALL private schools (even the painfully bad ones...)

So no one is "punishing success" with these rules; they are simply accommodating for the diversity of talent pools (in the exact same way that the class system does...)

 

[blue and white pride]

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2576842-americas-most-talented-high-school-football-team-img
Video on IMG Academy

 

[10=1]

Much like MoRock has already pointed out, the multiplier doesn't ONLY apply to the SUCCESSFUL private schools; it applies to ALL private schools (even the painfully bad ones...)

So no one is "punishing success" with these rules; they are simply accommodating for the diversity of talent pools (in the exact same way that the class system does...)

These rules are directly aimed at the successful private schools. Don't act like they are not. So actually these rules would punish success.