Matheny petitions to change name to Schottenheimer
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Mike Matheny has 21 wins in the postseason(4 seasons). Only two other active managers right now have more. Terry Francona(15th seasons) 28 and Bruce Bochy(21 seasons) 48 wins. Think about that. It might hurt your head. But think about it for a second. Joe Girardi in 9 seasons, is tied at 21.
Bruce Bochy won his first WS after 15 seasons. Only won 8 postseason games through the first 15 years of managing. I think a lot of people consider this guy a good manager?
So, Matheny hasn't won a WS yet. But has amassed 21 wins in the postseason in four season, and he is "Mr. Regular Season"?
I think this all shows you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
Bruce Bochy won his first WS after 15 seasons. Only won 8 postseason games through the first 15 years of managing. I think a lot of people consider this guy a good manager?
So, Matheny hasn't won a WS yet. But has amassed 21 wins in the postseason in four season, and he is "Mr. Regular Season"?
I think this all shows you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
Tony Larussa won one postseason game in his first 10 years. Won 104 games in 1988 but didn't win the WS. He sucked.
Bobby Cox didn't win a WS until 17 years into managing. Terrible
Jim Leyland 8 playoff wins in the first 10 years of his run before the '97 marlins WS.
Whitey Herzog 10 seasons before winning the WS(5 playoff wins in those 10 seasons) Including a 102 win Royals team that didn't
Joe Maddon has 17 total through 12 years. And zero WS rings.
Bobby Cox didn't win a WS until 17 years into managing. Terrible
Jim Leyland 8 playoff wins in the first 10 years of his run before the '97 marlins WS.
Whitey Herzog 10 seasons before winning the WS(5 playoff wins in those 10 seasons) Including a 102 win Royals team that didn't
Joe Maddon has 17 total through 12 years. And zero WS rings.
Have just a touch of perspective. What is now playoffs, wasn't once playoffs. Your "numbers" game resembles Veer's attempts to fluff Truman's efforts in the SEC.
Go check to see the pennant numbers then. It doesn't change that perspective of the success Matheny has had early on. Whitey failed to win a WS with a 102 win team. NONE of these guys had anywhere near the success that Matheny has had.
Nor the rosters. But that negates your narrative, I get it. He is what he is. Not awful. Not great. It's just the stuff he's worst at, actual in game decision-making, is probably his worst asset. And it's the most visible.
Really? As good as the Cards were with low scoring games you're criticizing his game decision making? The SOB won 100 games with a MASH unit.
Do you see ANY of the other managers in the playoffs right now winning with the Cards playoff team?
Relax guys....we could all be Dodger fans. The Cubs are about to get swept by the Mets and Joe Madden will be the star of a reality tv show soon called I Was Once a Baseball Genius and Now I'm Homeless. Life is still good. The Cardinals will be back next year and probably in the play-offs and if healthy will compete for another WS ring.
I thought he was really good. But then again, I don't subscribe to your results based method of evaluation. The fact he had what you call the best Cardinals team in 25 years, doesn't make a difference in the world. That could've been the best Red Sox team in 100 years they played. Not saying it was or wasn't, but when you look strictly at results those are the scenarios you're stuck with.
I watch enough baseball to know that the Cards were not going anywhere regardless of who was managing them. And I read enough posts on here b*tching about their roster to know it doesn't work both ways. You say they have a stacked roster then all season complain about lack of offense. Matheny isn't swinging the ****ing bat!
Also, you don't subscribe to results based on evaluation? Yet you say Matheny isn't a good manager?
Correct. If I thought results oriented was the appropriate evaluative method, I'd think he was good because the team he manages won 100 games. That can't be hard to decipher.
I'm not saying Matheny had much to do with their lack of success in the playoffs. You're drawing conclusions that aren't mine. I'm saying his managing in games is bad. The reason they lost in the playoffs, is the same reason they won in the regular season. Starting pitching. It faltered the last month or so after being historically good. Matheny continually running Seigrest and his reverse-splits in to face reverse-split hitting Rizzo didn't help, but it certainly didn't lose the series.
Offensive roster was really bad. Pitching roster, especially the starters, was really good. Same thing I've said all year. One is a way to win the regular season. The same is a recipe for a tighter postseason. Not as much starting pitching depth is needed. Like anything else, the Birds could use a bit more balance. If moving some parts to get a bat or two means Lyons or Gonzales is the 5th starter, ok.
The real issue with Matheny is he's had a number of years to get better and he hasn't shown any real progress. They need to get him some bench coach help.
Marty Schottenheimer:
Well respected coach.
Known for not being creative on offense
Excellent regular season success
Couldn't get it done in the playoffs.
Over and over and over and over.
With or without superior talent.
Quickly landed jobs when fired.
Matheny = Schottenheimer.
That's all VB.
Isn't that method of evaluation the core of all the metrics stuff/shifts everybody is nuts over? I see announcers all the time say a guy hit right into the shift because a SS catches his ground ball while playing where the 2nd baseman would have been playing anyway. How the heck do you NOT evaluate somebody on the results they get?
The only problem with your premise is MM is young and has many more opportunities to improve. At this point I can't argue that his playoff managing needs improvement. He and MO could do a better job of constructing a playoff roster. Matheny is very young in managing years and I feel he will get better and bring some championships to St. Louis. NM is probably right about getting him some help on the bench.
Other managers go to the playoffs and don't win. But you have to keep going like Bobby Cox to keep your job. LaRussa went to the playoffs and lost with the Chisox. Then when he didn't go, He got fired. Herzog went to the playoffs with KC and lost. When he didn't go, he got fired. They both won it all later, elsewhere. But if you blow your opportunities you are setting yourself up for a firing. Like Dusty Baker and dozens of other managers.
I have to assume that everybody has forgotten Matheny lost a BIG piece of his regular season rotation when Martinez had to shut down. What would the post season roster have looked like IF Cmart was healthy. That would have changed not only the starting rotation, but the pen, and possibly even the bench.
Perhaps if they didn't have Martinez pitch winter ball he could have survived thru the playoffs. Just sayin.
He's not that young at this point. Awful lot of managers are fired within 4 years. You don't get a decade to learn on the job.
Dusty Baker is a good example of a Matheny - very good in the clubhouse, not so good at managing a game.
Duck you just posted on another thread blaming Wacha's troubles on MM for skipping him a turn to save some innings, now here you are blaming the brass for letting Martinez pitch in the winter league. So I guess you're worried about the innings build up for one but not for the other?
Really? How can you compare the two? Matheny has been far and above more successful in his first four seasons than Baker was in 20 years of coaching.
He is here to stay until the wheels fall off the ship. Then when the next manager comes in and can't win and has a clubhouse of drama, you'll blame the roster.
You guys cherry pick your postions. Pitching was record levels all year(which is why he won 100) then blame Matheny when they can't win the postseason. Bats couldn't hit this year, but the roster is what carries him.
It's the song that never ends....
It's quite comical. Anything good is all the players, anything bad is all MM. But it's the opposite with the Cubs.
It's quite comical. Anything good is all the players, anything bad is all MM. But it's the opposite with the Cubs.
Even more insulting is Eagles painting a picture of more educated fans agreeing with the side that Matheny is somehow hampering this team. I'll be the first to say, my love of sports goes Football, Hockey then Baseball. The most I talk baseball is with my 86 year old neighbor over a few beers, who played in the minors for the Cardinals and his cousin played in the majors (Sonny Siebert). This guy has seen it all.
Lived through the good and bad times of Cardinals baseball. DVRs the games so he can watch them at 3am because he goes to bed at 7pm. He mocks the whiners about Matheny. He doesn't agree with Matheny on every call(I don't think anybody does, although that is what some on here believe). But the proof is in the pudding. He is winning. Over the last 4 years the Cardinals have lost a HOF Manager. A HOF pitching coach. The best player the Cardinals have seen since Stan. The best pitcher the Cardinals have had in 20+ years. The best prospect they've had to a tragic accident. A HOF Catcher to injuries in critical times. Their best power hitter this year. They've played uproven(with potential) rookies to only have success(must be terrible management on Matheny's part). They've won a TON of close games, you know, those games were managing is crucial. NOBODY, not one of you would have said four years ago we would have the success they've had.
I think this is all a product of a spoiled fan base. It really is. The people like Duck forget all to easy the bad times and only expect a WS every year, regardless of injuries or player movement. There will be a time when we are begging for the Matheny era to come back. I guarantee it.
I don't long for the days of Greg Jeffries. How easy we forget.
I will never forget the bad years of the 70s. The only good thing back then you could sit in the bleaches for $2 and get a beer for $3 so I miss those days but not those teams. Two things the Cards have to find a #4 hitter but I don't get the feeling MO believes this as I hear him talk. 2. If the Cards think their pitching will continue as it did this year it will be a huge mistake much like their thinking on RISP 2 years ago. It will regress!
If you can't tell the difference between disrupting a routine during the season and pitching winter ball, god help us.
Roundballer wants Matheny to get credit for 100 wins but no blame for any losses.
You'd be wrong on that. I've never said the guy doesn't make mistakes. But what's funny is he's won more games than any manager since he took over and you don't give him any credit for ANY of them. If you did so your criticism wouldn't be so bad. But all you do is criticize. It's at the point now where I just chuckle at most of your whining posts. You sound like that old man at the barber shop who complains about everything in the world. People just look at each other and shake their heads when he leaves.
I'm not sure I think he "hampers" the team, nor painted that picture. That's your inference. His game day managing isn't good. That's not an opinion. Unfortunately, that's the thing that is most visible. The other things, by all accounts, he seems very good at. Again, that's not an opinion. Or if they are opinions, they're opinions shared by many both locally and nationally.
I think the things he focuses on in the regular season (and is no doubt a contributor to the really good regular seasons), grinding out every win, hurt them once they enter the postseason. Players are overworked and flat at the end of the year. And this season, injuries created a mess on top of overworked players.
You are very much like the PB fans that would go batcrap when someone typed something less than worship to TH. And then infer from there. Incorrectly. What I think, and have said over and over, he's average. For example...It's my belief, if he had the White Sox roster this year, they would've lost 85-90 games. Just as they did.
He is a wonderful man. A fine Christian.
He even helps out around the house with chores. There.
Frankly, I don't think you know enough to critique the manager so it's easier to ridicule those who can.
That IS AN OPINION. You are not in the clubhouse meetings. You are not studying the hitter/pitcher dynamics. Who nationally and locally are you listening to? Are these the same people who hide in the dark waiting for controversies? The same guys who never played baseball and or ever picked up a bat, but they'll sure tell you how some guy sitting in a Japanese league has a WAR out of this world. Again, you're going off of unknowns. In other words you're going off assumptions that player b would be better than player a in a certain situation.
Did you ever think why the bullpen was wore down? Maybe he relied on a few guys because he HAD to? Is that on him? He HAS to win 100 games this year to win the division. Do you understand that? Does Molina need to sit more games? Absolutely. Should Jhonny have sat more? Of course. Would we have won the division if they did? What about all of the injuries? What do they do there?
As for the TH comment. I think not. I just can't believe the on going b*tch fest you guys are having about Matheny when there are more factors into how this season played out. Yet all you or duck or whoever has is that he can't win in the postseason. It's like he destroyed Molina's thumb. He hurt Martinez. He turned OT's car into a guard rail. He hurt Holliday, Waino, Adams and Garcia.
Maybe it's just the act you guys complain about him and never give him credit? Maybe I am wrong and missed that post.
And you're qualified how? Are you some all-star armchair manager none of us know about?
Lol. Yes you're the expert. Even if it's in your own mind. Carry on.
You are making progress. Follow along and maybe you can learn.
