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Matheny petitions to change name to Schottenheimer

So what do you judge a managers success on if not W's? That is ludicrous. Do they have some sabermetric nerd **** for that?
 
And uh, no. Not many managers have had Matheny's success. Thats also a lie.
 
Kenny56 said:
And uh, no. Not many managers have had Matheny's success. Thats also a lie.
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There are plenty of managers that have reached the playoffs four times. Which is what he's done. He's been to the NLCS twice. Won two regular season Central titles (???), maybe. There are plenty that have done that. None in four years likely. You assume the rest of his career will continue?
 
Kenny56 said:
So what do you judge a managers success on if not W's? That's been discussed at length on here many times. I pointed out the things I (and more importantly, baseball people) think he's good and not so good at. That is ludicrous. Do they have some sabermetric nerd **** for that? No, but your stance on that should probably end the conversation. In a game filled with numbers, please lets discount the predictability from some of the best mathematical minds on the planet.
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Does he suddenly become a bad manager if he goes to Oakland and loses 90 games? A lot of really good managers have losing seasons. Doesn't mean they're bad. Making that assumption would have to include the assumption all rosters are equal.
 
Eagles_Ball said:
Does he suddenly become a bad manager if he goes to Oakland and loses 90 games? A lot of really good managers have losing seasons. Doesn't mean they're bad. Making that assumption would have to include the assumption all rosters are equal.
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So basically it comes back to where oldround and I said you guys will twist it to whatever benefits your narative. If they lose it's his fault. If they win it's because the roster is stacked.
 
Kenny56 said:
So basically it comes back to where oldround and I said you guys will twist it to whatever benefits your narative. If they lose it's his fault. If they win it's because the roster is stacked.
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And you drew that conclusion, how? I've talked about his in game moves in wins as much as losses. Maybe even more so. Only point there was, you believing winning games solely makes him a good manager. If that's what you think, watch the Royals play. They win, and I'm sure you'd bang your head off the wall watching that guy manage a game. It's comical at times.
 
Eagles_Ball said:
And you drew that conclusion, how? I've talked about his in game moves in wins as much as losses. Maybe even more so. Only point there was, you believing winning games solely makes him a good manager. If that's what you think, watch the Royals play. They win, and I'm sure you'd bang your head off the wall watching that guy manage a game. It's comical at times.
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He won't watch the Royals because he seldom watches baseball at all. He knows nothing about baseball skills or strategy. He simply has a man crush on Matheny. Just a pathetic person.
 
Eagles_Ball said:
I'm not sure I think he "hampers" the team, nor painted that picture. That's your inference. His game day managing isn't good. That's not an opinion. Unfortunately, that's the thing that is most visible. The other things, by all accounts, he seems very good at. Again, that's not an opinion. Or if they are opinions, they're opinions shared by many both locally and nationally.

I think the things he focuses on in the regular season (and is no doubt a contributor to the really good regular seasons), grinding out every win, hurt them once they enter the postseason. Players are overworked and flat at the end of the year. And this season, injuries created a mess on top of overworked players.

You are very much like the PB fans that would go batcrap when someone typed something less than worship to TH. And then infer from there. Incorrectly. What I think, and have said over and over, he's average. For example...It's my belief, if he had the White Sox roster this year, they would've lost 85-90 games. Just as they did.
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Pretty much this, yes.
 
oldroundballer said:
It's quite comical. Anything good is all the players, anything bad is all MM. But it's the opposite with the Cubs. :rolleyes:
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You can point out specific things MM does very well. He seems to do quite well in the clubhouse, for instance. Our young players are developing reasonably well at an ML level. But his ability to manage a game is poor, as is his ability to keep a team fresh for October.
 
Kenny56 said:
Even more insulting is Eagles painting a picture of more educated fans agreeing with the side that Matheny is somehow hampering this team. I'll be the first to say, my love of sports goes Football, Hockey then Baseball. The most I talk baseball is with my 86 year old neighbor over a few beers, who played in the minors for the Cardinals and his cousin played in the majors (Sonny Siebert). This guy has seen it all.

Lived through the good and bad times of Cardinals baseball. DVRs the games so he can watch them at 3am because he goes to bed at 7pm. He mocks the whiners about Matheny. He doesn't agree with Matheny on every call(I don't think anybody does, although that is what some on here believe). But the proof is in the pudding. He is winning. Over the last 4 years the Cardinals have lost a HOF Manager. A HOF pitching coach. The best player the Cardinals have seen since Stan. The best pitcher the Cardinals have had in 20+ years. The best prospect they've had to a tragic accident. A HOF Catcher to injuries in critical times. Their best power hitter this year. They've played uproven(with potential) rookies to only have success(must be terrible management on Matheny's part). They've won a TON of close games, you know, those games were managing is crucial. NOBODY, not one of you would have said four years ago we would have the success they've had.

I think this is all a product of a spoiled fan base. It really is. The people like Duck forget all to easy the bad times and only expect a WS every year, regardless of injuries or player movement. There will be a time when we are begging for the Matheny era to come back. I guarantee it.

I don't long for the days of Greg Jeffries. How easy we forget.
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Look at the rosters Dusty had vs. what Mike has had. Really hard to judge managers solely on W and L because 90%+ of what happens is up to the players. You could put Joe Maddon in charge of the 2003 Tigers and they would still have been awful. The 2004 Cards would have been an awesome team even with Matt Williams.
 
Neutron Monster said:
Look at the rosters Dusty had vs. what Mike has had. Really hard to judge managers solely on W and L because 90%+ of what happens is up to the players. You could put Joe Maddon in charge of the 2003 Tigers and they would still have been awful. The 2004 Cards would have been an awesome team even with Matt Williams.
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Did you have the Cardinals winning a 100 games this year?
 
What made you think we had more talent than Pittsburgh or Chicago? A lot of the "experts" picked one or the other to win over the Cardinals.

dwight-angry-o.gif
 
Cubs had a wide band - they had the most potential but also were a little behind at the beginning of the year.

Pirates overachieved to my expectations. I didn't realize how good Kang and Cervelli would be. Their team also stayed very healthy - they lost the fewest games of +WAR players of any team in MLB.
 
I think the last time I checked si.com was when Tyra Banks was on the cover of the Swimsuit Edition.
 
Kind of amusing looking back at some of those predictions versus what's actually happening. Looks like none of the so-called experts had any of the current final 4 right. Wouldn't you think at least one of the multiple guys who actually get paid to do this stuff would have predicted at least one right? Unless I missed one I don't see any. I guess maybe it's harder to win in the post season than some think. Those sites should have contacted the experts on MoSports. I'm sure several here would have been 100% right. :)
 
oldroundballer said:
Kind of amusing looking back at some of those predictions versus what's actually happening. Looks like none of the so-called experts had any of the current final 4 right. Wouldn't you think at least one of the multiple guys who actually get paid to do this stuff would have predicted at least one right? Unless I missed one I don't see any. I guess maybe it's harder to win in the post season than some think. Those sites should have contacted the experts on MoSports. I'm sure several here would have been 100% right. :)
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Mets were really, really hard to get right. Young pitching is extremely volatile and they had about as much good fortune as you could ever get from it. The projections were bad in a lot of cases this year, though.
 
oldroundballer said:
Kind of amusing looking back at some of those predictions versus what's actually happening. Looks like none of the so-called experts had any of the current final 4 right. Wouldn't you think at least one of the multiple guys who actually get paid to do this stuff would have predicted at least one right? Unless I missed one I don't see any. I guess maybe it's harder to win in the post season than some think. Those sites should have contacted the experts on MoSports. I'm sure several here would have been 100% right. :)
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Don't distract from the point. Kenkster claimed "many experts"...I'm still searching for the many.

But for reals...It is crazy. Some bonkers things can happen over the course of 162.
 
oldroundballer said:
Kind of amusing looking back at some of those predictions versus what's actually happening. Looks like none of the so-called experts had any of the current final 4 right. Wouldn't you think at least one of the multiple guys who actually get paid to do this stuff would have predicted at least one right? Unless I missed one I don't see any. I guess maybe it's harder to win in the post season than some think. Those sites should have contacted the experts on MoSports. I'm sure several here would have been 100% right. :)
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So what made them wrong? It sure as hell wasn't a trade for Brandon Moss.

The Mets revamped their offense with three bats. The Blue Jays added big time bats and Price. Those deadline deals vaulted those two teams to division titles. Seems pretty obvious. Neither team was winning their divisions until they made the deals.
 
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Eagles_Ball said:
Don't distract from the point. Kenkster claimed "many experts"...I'm still searching for the many.

But for reals...It is crazy. Some bonkers things can happen over the course of 162.
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I listen to KFAN and 101 on a daily basis. Almost nobody on 101 had the Cards winning the division(outside of Randy, but he is a mangenious). They had them in the wildcard. The Pirates were considered by many on KFAN to be the team to beat in the division.

One is local, one is not. Craig Calcaterra of Hardballtalk picked them but then explained that it would be a three team race with any one of them winning it.

Vegas had Cubs and Cards both 14-1 at start of season to win WS.

Heck go back and read on pages 9 or so of this board. Doom and gloom before the first pitch of the year! You guys like to claim expert level!
 
Duck_walk said:
So what made them wrong? It sure as hell wasn't a trade for Brandon Moss.

The Mets revamped their offense with three bats. The Blue Jays added big time bats and Price. Those deadline deals vaulted those two teams to division titles. Seems pretty obvious. Neither team was winning their divisions until they made the deals.
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Those teams already had to have a lot of things go right to get there, 2/3rds of the season was over by the deadline. If you played the season over 100 times, it's hard to believe the Nats would be that bad or that the Mets arms would stay as successful and healthy as they were.

Sabes were pretty much in agreement that Toronto was the second best team in the AL East - the real surprise to them was how bad Boston was, not that Toronto was a playoff caliber team
 
Kenny56 said:
I listen to KFAN and 101 on a daily basis. Almost nobody on 101 had the Cards winning the division(outside of Randy, but he is a mangenious). They had them in the wildcard. The Pirates were considered by many on KFAN to be the team to beat in the division....I stopped reading this paragraph at KFAN. Nuff said.

One is local, one is not. Craig Calcaterra of Hardballtalk picked them but then explained that it would be a three team race with any one of them winning it....One is not many.

Vegas had Cubs and Cards both 14-1 at start of season to win WS....Those are odds based on action. Not predictions by experts.

Heck go back and read on pages 9 or so of this board. Doom and gloom before the first pitch of the year! You guys like to claim expert level! I am an expert in my own mind.
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Neutron Monster said:
Those teams already had to have a lot of things go right to get there, 2/3rds of the season was over by the deadline. If you played the season over 100 times, it's hard to believe the Nats would be that bad or that the Mets arms would stay as successful and healthy as they were.

Sabes were pretty much in agreement that Toronto was the second best team in the AL East - the real surprise to them was how bad Boston was, not that Toronto was a playoff caliber team
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Come on. Those teams were competitive but not in first until the deals. Not only were the new players valuable but the commitment of the front office ignited the rest of the team. Look closely at those teams records before and after the deals. This didn't follow your narrative, I'm sorry. But those deals sealed the deal.
 
The Mets had the worst offense in the NL prior to the Cespedes deal. Look it up.
 
Duck_walk said:
Come on. Those teams were competitive but not in first until the deals. Not only were the new players valuable but the commitment of the front office ignited the rest of the team. Look closely at those teams records before and after the deals. This didn't follow your narrative, I'm sorry. But those deals sealed the deal.
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"Commitment ignited the rest of the team" is ridiculous - why did the Cardinals win 100 and win the division we got was Moss? Why did Washington collapse when they traded for Papelbon? Why did KC do fine even though Cueto was awful?

You are reading far too much into short time frames and ignoring the evidence that existed. Toronto was, by far, the best team in the AL East on a runs scored vs. runs allowed basis before they ever traded for Price. Toronto's management correctly understood that they were the best team in the division. I give their management credit for addressing their #1 need but they would have won that division even without Price and Tulo (Tulo wasn't all that good for them and, shocker, he got hurt.)

The Mets are the only team that really got that much better. 90 wins usually isn't enough to win a division - they were fortunate that their division was so bad. Washington was 54-47 on July 31st. If Washington were 60-41, the Mets probably don't make those trades, and we aren't sitting here having this debate. They were lucky that Washington, will all of its talent, significantly underperformed (a) its expectations and (b) its expected record based upon runs scored and runs allowed.

The Mets should not have been within 3 games in late July. They were lucky YTD and Washington was unlucky. If you played the season over 100 times, the majority of those runs are going to have Washington leading by more games than that.

There's also the fact that these deals often look better in 2015 than they do in 5 years. GMs get paid to manage clubs for the long-term. The Mets and Blue Jays may win a title, but they may also look terrible in 5 years for what they gave up if they don't win.
 
Neutron Monster said:
"Commitment ignited the rest of the team" is ridiculous - why did the Cardinals win 100 and win the division we got was Moss? Why did Washington collapse when they traded for Papelbon? Why did KC do fine even though Cueto was awful?

You are reading far too much into short time frames and ignoring the evidence that existed. Toronto was, by far, the best team in the AL East on a runs scored vs. runs allowed basis before they ever traded for Price. Toronto's management correctly understood that they were the best team in the division. I give their management credit for addressing their #1 need but they would have won that division even without Price and Tulo (Tulo wasn't all that good for them and, shocker, he got hurt.)

The Mets are the only team that really got that much better. 90 wins usually isn't enough to win a division - they were fortunate that their division was so bad. Washington was 54-47 on July 31st. If Washington were 60-41, the Mets probably don't make those trades, and we aren't sitting here having this debate. They were lucky that Washington, will all of its talent, significantly underperformed (a) its expectations and (b) its expected record based upon runs scored and runs allowed.

The Mets should not have been within 3 games in late July. They were lucky YTD and Washington was unlucky. If you played the season over 100 times, the majority of those runs are going to have Washington leading by more games than that.

There's also the fact that these deals often look better in 2015 than they do in 5 years. GMs get paid to manage clubs for the long-term. The Mets and Blue Jays may win a title, but they may also look terrible in 5 years for what they gave up if they don't win.
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I touted those deals by both teams when they were made. I didn't tout Paplebon or Cueto. Both the Jays and Mets flat out took off. I know you number crunchers think everything is mathematics. Sometimes it's chemistry, line up construction, and attitude. Not every trade works in the positive. Did the Cards get better? No. Their management made a lame deal. Washington was shot as a team long before the Paplebon deal. This is one of those times when you are wrong. These 2 teams don't win without those deals. Toronto was hitting but they weren't winning prior to the deals. Cespedes had a big impact on other hitters in the lineup for NY.
 
Duck_walk said:
I touted those deals by both teams when they were made. I didn't tout Paplebon or Cueto. Both the Jays and Mets flat out took off. I know you number crunchers think everything is mathematics. Sometimes it's chemistry, line up construction, and attitude. Not every trade works in the positive. Did the Cards get better? No. Their management made a lame deal. Washington was shot as a team long before the Paplebon deal. This is one of those times when you are wrong. These 2 teams don't win without those deals. Toronto was hitting but they weren't winning prior to the deals. Cespedes had a big impact on other hitters in the lineup for NY.
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I wonder if the birds would have won the division if Matheny rested all the people you wanted him to rest? They pretty much needed every win they got to even get into the playoffs. When he DID rest a couple of pitchers you say it killed their mojo. You can't have it both ways!
 
3Rfan said:
I wonder if the birds would have won the division if Matheny rested all the people you wanted him to rest? They pretty much needed every win they got to even get into the playoffs. When he DID rest a couple of pitchers you say it killed their mojo. You can't have it both ways!
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You are starting to make stuff up 3R. Are you Drop.Tine? Did Matheny have them playing their best at playoff time? Did Siegrist and Maness have more relief appearances than any other NL relievers? Who is responsible?
Why aren't the Mets and Cubs pitchers worn down?
 
Duck_walk said:
I touted those deals by both teams when they were made. I didn't tout Paplebon or Cueto. Both the Jays and Mets flat out took off. I know you number crunchers think everything is mathematics. Sometimes it's chemistry, line up construction, and attitude. Not every trade works in the positive. Did the Cards get better? No. Their management made a lame deal. Washington was shot as a team long before the Paplebon deal. This is one of those times when you are wrong. These 2 teams don't win without those deals. Toronto was hitting but they weren't winning prior to the deals. Cespedes had a big impact on other hitters in the lineup for NY.
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No question papelbon hurt chemistry. And there are other things like that. But deals aren't the be all end all. When we won the WS we didn't trade for guys like Price or Cespedes. We traded for the corpse of Larry walker, Octavio Dotel, etc. you don't have to make big moves to win. You just have to have a good enough roster to make the playoffs and get hot at the right time.

Our real problem was our team was run down come October as you note.
 
Duck_walk said:
You are starting to make stuff up 3R. Are you Drop.Tine? Did Matheny have them playing their best at playoff time? Did Siegrist and Maness have more relief appearances than any other NL relievers? Who is responsible?
Why aren't the Mets and Cubs pitchers worn down?
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It appears the Cubs guys ARE worn down, especially Arietta and they're behind again tonight. The Mets didn't have to win at least 97 games just to get in. I case you didn't notice the NL Central was no cake walk this season. This ain't Little league or Babe Ruth, these guys are PAID to do this. If they're not ready for playoff baseball it ain't on Matheny. It's all about who is hot at the right time, not who is the best. The Cardinals have been on the other side of that and won a WS because of it. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, the players have to do their job. As I remember it wasn't the offense you constantly complained about that did the Cardinals in. The BIG issue was defense in the loss that turned everything the wrong way. The offense did much better than anybody expected. I'm pretty sure you have bragged on Toronto's pitching and hitting this year and look where they are. Even Price has not been so great.
 
3Rfan said:
It appears the Cubs guys ARE worn down, especially Arietta and they're behind again tonight. The Mets didn't have to win at least 97 games just to get in. I case you didn't notice the NL Central was no cake walk this season. This ain't Little league or Babe Ruth, these guys are PAID to do this. If they're not ready for playoff baseball it ain't on Matheny. It's all about who is hot at the right time, not who is the best. The Cardinals have been on the other side of that and won a WS because of it. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, the players have to do their job. As I remember it wasn't the offense you constantly complained about that did the Cardinals in. The BIG issue was defense in the loss that turned everything the wrong way. The offense did much better than anybody expected. I'm pretty sure you have bragged on Toronto's pitching and hitting this year and look where they are. Even Price has not been so great.
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ARGH. "They get paid" is a terrible reason to run your guys into the ground. It is the job of the GM, coaches/manager, and training staff to have guys in peak condition come the playoffs. That means considering whether playing Yadi nearly the most games of any catcher in the NL is a good idea. That means evaluating skipping starts for certain SP. That means evaluating how you use your bullpen. That means telling guys no when they press to play every day. Etc.

The NBA is all over this - the good teams like San Antonio are resting their starters more and more (both in terms of missing games and lowering their minutes played per game) so they are fresher for the playoffs and are less likely to develop injuries caused by overexertion. The dumb teams like the Bulls run their guys into the ground so they get hurt and so they are dead come the playoffs.
 
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