Cooter vs Principia
- Thread starter Ftballfan16
- Start date
Here's the accurate version...
Score is 18-6 halfway through 2nd quarter. Cooter makes 2 FTs to make score 18-8. At some point during the game the table took two points off the board. Cooter asks for game stop to check the books. All books had the FTs made, Cooter's book was the only book that had the extra FG. Officials went with the majority. In the moment, Cooter couldn't provide when the extra FG in their book was scored. Nobody disputes Cooter wasn't right. Unfortunate thing is video isn't allowed to fix the issue. Conceivably Cooter could've gone to video at half and identified the scores, but it's not allowed per the rules.
Score is 18-6 halfway through 2nd quarter. Cooter makes 2 FTs to make score 18-8. At some point during the game the table took two points off the board. Cooter asks for game stop to check the books. All books had the FTs made, Cooter's book was the only book that had the extra FG. Officials went with the majority. In the moment, Cooter couldn't provide when the extra FG in their book was scored. Nobody disputes Cooter wasn't right. Unfortunate thing is video isn't allowed to fix the issue. Conceivably Cooter could've gone to video at half and identified the scores, but it's not allowed per the rules.
MSHSAA has said there was a mistake but can not do anything about it. Cooter played under protest. What is the rules for playing a game under protest?
That is different from the original version. So now the story is that the official scorer and Principia books had the same score, and Cooter had an extra FG? Were the 2 FTs made never in question? Did Cooter stop the game as soon as the points were taken off the board? Did a video review after the game prove that Cooter had in fact have a 2 pt FG that was not counted that should have been counted, and both the official scorebook and Principia's book missed the 2 pt FG?
Something's still not making sense.
This is the explanation I got. I'd say it's about as accurate as can be given where it's coming from.
That is correct, yes.
All three books had the FTs.
As soon as it was noticed was my perception.
Yes, nobody is doubting that Cooter was correct. Unfortunately you can't use video to correct it. Against MSHSAA rules.
It rarely does when something like this happens. Had Cooter been able to provide evidence outside of the book (keep in mind, the other two books had the same thing, nevermind it was incorrect)...like, say, no wait it was #10 with about 2 mins to go in the 1st quarter on a putback that scored the bucket that's missing...but they couldn't. And Principia had what they had. Crappy situation all the way around.
Cooter let it go. Whatever error was made was early in the game. Overcome the mistake. If a referee misses an obvious out of bounds call and the mistake costs the losing team 2 points and they lose by 1 are we supposed to overturn their loss? Every time you step on the court you know the referees and scorekeeper are part of the game. I think Cooter thought they would win this game since they had beaten Principia handily earlier in the year. It’s really unfortunate the mistake happened but let it go and show some respect.
Much different thing to say a a judgment call was missed than 2 points being taken off the board.
I have a lot of opinions on this situation. I am going to start by admitting my bias. I worked with the Cooter assistant coach for 2 years about 4 years ago (I think). I like him a lot and feel terrible for him. I don't know either of the head coaches, but I have heard good things about both. I never thought I would be the 'get off my lawn' old man coach, but I agree I don't feel like it is a good look to be tagging the opposing coach on Facebook. I feel like that can make the parents who see that feel more open to attacking the opposing coach as well online. Tag MSHSAA, Principia, and Farmington, those are all fair game. The opposing coach is a little different and is not fair to him and his family.
I don't know if there is a good answer to this. I think the closest thing to fair would be replaying the game and I don't know if that is feasible. But I don't think you can just say give Cooter the 2 points and they win. The strategy would have changed at the end of the game, which could have caused the outcome to be different because of the 2 extra points.
MSHSAA is charging $10 to watch the recording of the game. This isn't college or the pros, but if MSHSAA is already recording the game, scorekeeping problems or other easily visible errors that can be fixed by reviewing the game should be for state tournament games. There is no reason not to use it.
I know we all want to think everyone is 100% neutral, and no personal biases come into play, but you have a private vs. public, in a larger town there is a chance that there is an implicit bias against a small school from the furthest south in the state, with a name like Cooter. I am not saying it is intentional or even open, but they are down 18-8 or 18-6 what real difference does it make, this game could be over pretty quick. Not saying any of this is definite, but I am also saying that it is not like this doesn't happen.
I don't know if there is a good answer to this. I think the closest thing to fair would be replaying the game and I don't know if that is feasible. But I don't think you can just say give Cooter the 2 points and they win. The strategy would have changed at the end of the game, which could have caused the outcome to be different because of the 2 extra points.
MSHSAA is charging $10 to watch the recording of the game. This isn't college or the pros, but if MSHSAA is already recording the game, scorekeeping problems or other easily visible errors that can be fixed by reviewing the game should be for state tournament games. There is no reason not to use it.
I know we all want to think everyone is 100% neutral, and no personal biases come into play, but you have a private vs. public, in a larger town there is a chance that there is an implicit bias against a small school from the furthest south in the state, with a name like Cooter. I am not saying it is intentional or even open, but they are down 18-8 or 18-6 what real difference does it make, this game could be over pretty quick. Not saying any of this is definite, but I am also saying that it is not like this doesn't happen.
The thing is there were 8 points when 2 points were taken off the scoreboard. I am unclear on when the Cooter bench challenged the score. It could be possible that they didn't challenge until several more points were scored.
It is Jay's job and the Principia scorekeeper's job to help correct the score. Can you imagine if every time an official scorer pushes the wrong button, or records points to the wrong team that the team that benefited can argue to keep them from correcting the score? What a shitshow that would be.
Somebody disputed they were right or they would have been given the points. Also you guys will obviously believe what you want, but if you believe two scorers both missed one of the first 3 field goals by Cooter in the game that is fine. I have been around a long time and that is B!!Sh!t.
I saw somewhere not sure where, and so definitely not saying it's the gospel, but the Principia score keeper erased a score in their book to match the official book.
I think that came from a Cooter facebooker.,so not unbiased. But I don't believe the official scorer, the Principia Scorer, and all the coaches from Principia didn't know the correct score of the game.
Yes, it doesn't make sense that both scorers missed one of Cooter's first three field goals. Also remember the scoreboard operator had the score correct. Why did they take 2 points off the board without checking the books?
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I knew I could pull you into this thread! It's crazy what they did to poor ole Cooter.
Those two sentences don't mesh. If the person working the scoreboard pushes the wrong button, the person keeping the official book (along with the book on the benches, if all agree) are responsible. Neither coach has that responsibility. Now, if a coach elects not to keep the book or their scorer doesn't notice a mistake...that's a different story. It sounds like the officials did what they were supposed to do. Also sounds like the situation was handled, by the parties responsible for handling, correctly.
The official scorekeeper screwed up. That's undeniable. From there, the officials did what they could. The fact Cooter was shorted two points is incredibly unfortunate. But to point fingers and place blame on the opposing team seems a tad much. And to say it's their responsibility or job is factually inaccurate.
You don't think a pissed off Cooter fan on social media is gospel? Lol. Convince me further by saying it was a mom of a player.
lol like I said, I saw it somewhere, couldn't remember where. It could have been one of the earlier posts on here. Now that I have gotten to the point of being in the get off my lawn crowd, I don't remember as well.
So if the official scorekeeper records two points for the wrong team that is unfortunate and nothing can be done about it unless the coach can recall who and when every point in the game was scored? How can it ever be corrected? The teams don't have a responsibility to correct the official scorer? What are you saying? That very technically speaking it isn't the official job of the coaches to keep score? Ok, you got me, but thank God most coaches do feel a responsibility to keep the correct score of the game.
Preach.Now that I have gotten to the point of being in the get off my lawn crowd, I don't remember as well.
No, at that point you stop and compare all three books. And the officials discuss and make a decision. Which is what happened. But I can assure you of this, if the Cooter coach could've stated when and where the three FG's occurred it would have gone a long way in influencing the decision. I've been told the coach couldn't do that. No fault being placed, just putting the facts out there.
See above.
No, they don't. But if they want their own records and a chance at righting a wrong, then they have a book they trust.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. But I agree with your statement as well.
Does the scorekeeper count as 1 too? Asking for a friend @PricipiaHeadCoach 😂 😂 😂
A lot of mentions have been made about the Principia score keeper. A lot of team score keepers are hesitant to question the official board or book. They just assume the mistake was on their end. This is especially true if it is a student manager or a parent just trying to help.
As mentioned above, no way to assume how the game would have played out with a different score. You certainly can't just assume that both teams would have played exactly as they did. Obviously, a late game possession if going to look VERY different if you are up two, versus tied, versus down two.
Just sucks for everyone involved. We can't have sports without officials and that includes book officials and scoreboard operators. As long as they are human, this will happen every now and again. Awful that it happened in a playoff game and a close one to boot.
As mentioned above, no way to assume how the game would have played out with a different score. You certainly can't just assume that both teams would have played exactly as they did. Obviously, a late game possession if going to look VERY different if you are up two, versus tied, versus down two.
Just sucks for everyone involved. We can't have sports without officials and that includes book officials and scoreboard operators. As long as they are human, this will happen every now and again. Awful that it happened in a playoff game and a close one to boot.
One thing is clear to me - MSHSAA needs to review the protest process. If MSHSAA is just going to declare that the game was over and the officials left, and therefore the final score stands regardless if the protesting team was right, then what the hell is the use of even protesting to MSHSAA???????????
If this happened to a big well-to-do school, I bet they would be seeking a court injunction.
If this happened to a big well-to-do school, I bet they would be seeking a court injunction.
Well I agree with a lot of the sentiments here. But if people are going to assume that the opposing head coach should know the score and interject on behalf of the accurate score it would stand to reason that either three or four officials who are tasked with also knowing the score should know the actual score of the game.
Especially that early on. It’s not like it was the middle of the game and things were up and down and there was a lot going on. There was only six or eight points that have been scored. And again if people are going to assume Coach blossom should know whether there were six or eight points scored then I would think people have every right to expect that the officials — all of them — should know whether there were six or eight points scored in the game.
I don’t think it’s all on the person keeping the book — although if they were on their phone that’s a fireable offense IMO. I don’t think is the responsibility of the opposing coach or the opposing teams bookkeeper to keep the correct score.
The responsibility is the officials to get the score correct. That’s it. They are to blame.
Especially that early on. It’s not like it was the middle of the game and things were up and down and there was a lot going on. There was only six or eight points that have been scored. And again if people are going to assume Coach blossom should know whether there were six or eight points scored then I would think people have every right to expect that the officials — all of them — should know whether there were six or eight points scored in the game.
I don’t think it’s all on the person keeping the book — although if they were on their phone that’s a fireable offense IMO. I don’t think is the responsibility of the opposing coach or the opposing teams bookkeeper to keep the correct score.
The responsibility is the officials to get the score correct. That’s it. They are to blame.
When I keep score, I write down who scored every basket. That way I can tell the order they scored. (I take scorekeeping seriously)
Remember that episode where the Duke boys was in a time crunch and it made more sense to make the General Lee 4x4 and drive off road than it was to drive the long way around? Makes me think of MSHSAA.
This is totally different from anything that was said up til now, and the points WERE on the board then removed.
I saw a letter online from a Missouri Senator to MSHSAA calling them out on this. It was also CC to Mike Parsons. I like seeing MSHSAA called out on stuff.
I also saw a letter from a House of Rep. member (Cooter's district) to MSHSAA as well calling them out on this. He even brought up NFHS where Section 2.2 Article 4 says that in unusual situations like this that the State Association may intercede. MSHSAA saying their hands are tied and can't do anything about this is Bull crap. They could of made them replay the game. That would of been the only fair thing to do.
They can write/say anything they want. Politicians are good at speaking up when they know nothing is going to happen.
Let's wait and see what they actually 'do' about it.
There are lots of misunderstandings in this thread.
1. The protest procedure is a MSHSAA adoption (There is no such thing under NFHS rules). The only things you can protest are misapplications of rules. The offended team has 10 minutes to produce evidence that a rule has been misapplied. That does not sound like what happened here. Cooter can say they protested all they want but there is no way to protest a scoring error. Those must be rectified on the court.
2. This is a scoring error, so it can be fixed at any time before the officials leave the floor and the score becomes final. Once the score becomes official, by rule it cannot be changed. (NFHS rule, not MSHSAA)
3. It would help if what actually happened was agreed on. There are two pages of one story, then on the third page we get a new story about how the free throws were never the issue but instead a mystery field goal that Cooter had in their book but no one else had any evidence of. If only one team had evidence of an uncredited field goal in the book but neither of the other two books had it, I would definitely stay with the official book at the table.
1. The protest procedure is a MSHSAA adoption (There is no such thing under NFHS rules). The only things you can protest are misapplications of rules. The offended team has 10 minutes to produce evidence that a rule has been misapplied. That does not sound like what happened here. Cooter can say they protested all they want but there is no way to protest a scoring error. Those must be rectified on the court.
2. This is a scoring error, so it can be fixed at any time before the officials leave the floor and the score becomes final. Once the score becomes official, by rule it cannot be changed. (NFHS rule, not MSHSAA)
3. It would help if what actually happened was agreed on. There are two pages of one story, then on the third page we get a new story about how the free throws were never the issue but instead a mystery field goal that Cooter had in their book but no one else had any evidence of. If only one team had evidence of an uncredited field goal in the book but neither of the other two books had it, I would definitely stay with the official book at the table.
Most media folks, especially the old school ones, do it that way. I coached with a guy way back when and one of the charts he had kept on the bench was a chart of every single offensive possession. That chart could've fixed this whole issue, much as your records would have.
I can assure you of this, what I said is accurate. Whether that is what has been said or not said, what I typed is accurate. And yes, the points were on the scoreboard and then removed. I said/typed that as well.
