Cooter vs Principia

[mike37]

They did check all 3 books. I don't know what all the books had but they went with the one at the table.
I don't believe the person keeping the scorebook tried to cheat anyone. It is a very unfortunate thing. It would seem the only way to fix it would to replay the whole game. But I am sure that probably won't happen.
It was a great game that both teams played really hard.

 

[Ftballfan16]

They did check all 3 books. I don't know what all the books had but they went with the one at the table.
I don't believe the person keeping the scorebook tried to cheat anyone. It is a very unfortunate thing. It would seem the only way to fix it would to replay the whole game. But I am sure that probably won't happen.
It was a great game that both teams played really hard.

No way your going to convince me the Principia coach or the players did not remember 2 free throws from a few minutes earlier. Instead of doing the right thing they decided to keep quite. Obviously the person keeping the Principia book erased it. No way you accidently miss not 1 but 2 free throws. The official scorer was playing on their phone obviously. Easy to miss stuff when your not paying attention.

 

[mowesten]

They did check all 3 books. I don't know what all the books had but they went with the one at the table.
I don't believe the person keeping the scorebook tried to cheat anyone. It is a very unfortunate thing. It would seem the only way to fix it would to replay the whole game. But I am sure that probably won't happen.
It was a great game that both teams played really hard.

According to the thread on Facebook, the person at the table was ON THEIR PHONE.

There's intentionally cheating someone. And then there intentionally being disrespectful and willfully negligent.

If it's true that person was on their phone, I don't draw much of a distinction.

 

[Arcola]

Other than this site and the above mentioned Facebook I do not see any media outlets reporting this online.

 

[MoSooner69]

He is ticked, and undersandibly so.

 

[Arcola]

He is ticked, and undersandibly so.

I’m really surprised he couldn’t fix this.
He can fix anything.

 

[Moleebo]

According to the thread on Facebook, the person at the table was ON THEIR PHONE.

There's intentionally cheating someone. And then there intentionally being disrespectful and willfully negligent.

If it's true that person was on their phone, I don't draw much of a distinction.

They may be using their phone to help score the game, I don't know what all they have to keep up with. Shouldn't need a phone should you?

 

[faurotfield]

I did not know anything at all about this situation until I read the post on here about it yesterday. I obviously feel bad for Cooter about how this all played out. I have to say though, that the more Facebook posts I read from the good folks of Cooter attacking Principia, Jay Blossom, MSHSAA, Jennifer Rukstad, the refs, the scorekeeper, Farmington High School, the people of Farmington, and private schools in general it makes me feel less sympathy than I otherwise would.

Cooter certainly got screwed over, but swinging wildly at everyone and attacking their integrity does not help the argument or make things better.

 

[mike37]

They were a bit out of hand at the game Friday. Not the coach but for sure some fans. I don't think this is a private school issue. Besides that the Principia team might be private but they were 6 freshman and 1 senior that play on that team. Pretty impressive to make a deep run playing pretty much all freshman.

 

[Moleebo]

I did not know anything at all about this situation until I read the post on here about it yesterday. I obviously feel bad for Cooter about how this all played out. I have to say though, that the more Facebook posts I read from the good folks of Cooter attacking Principia, Jay Blossom, MSHSAA, Jennifer Rukstad, the refs, the scorekeeper, Farmington High School, the people of Farmington, and private schools in general it makes me feel less sympathy than I otherwise would.

Cooter certainly got screwed over, but swinging wildly at everyone and attacking their integrity does not help the argument or make things better.

Yes, MSHSAA, the officials, the scorekeepers, and Principia are the victims here. The Principia coach, scorekeeper, and MSHSAA president are all profiles in courage and should be treated as such.

 

[mizzourahfan]

They were a bit out of hand at the game Friday. Not the coach but for sure some fans. I don't think this is a private school issue. Besides that the Principia team might be private but they were 6 freshman and 1 senior that play on that team. Pretty impressive to make a deep run playing pretty much all freshman.

Yes, they did a good job bringing in a talented freshmen class

 

[faurotfield]

Yes, MSHSAA, the officials, the scorekeepers, and Principia are the victims here. The Principia coach, scorekeeper, and MSHSAA president are all profiles in courage and should be treated as such.

I wouldn't categorize any of those listed as victims. I get the frustration from the Cooter community, but a whole lot of people getting vilified had nothing to do with the unfortunate circumstances on Friday and/or have no ability to rectify the situation as it currently stands.

A good portion of life is how you respond to situations. I feel bad for Cooter but I don't think the Cooter coach tagging Jay Blossom in Facebook posts about integrity is a great way to respond. I get the hurt they must be feeling due to the season concluding in the manner that it did, but man, there has to be some level of civility and decorum when you encounter a bad situation.

 

[Moleebo]

There is no way MSHSAA handles it this way if it were Blair Oaks instead of Cooter.

 

[faurotfield]

There is no way MSHSAA handles it this way if it were Blair Oaks instead of Cooter.

According to everything I have read, MSHSAA only cares for private schools so Blair Oaks would be in the same spot I believe.

 

[Moleebo]

I wouldn't categorize any of those listed as victims. I get the frustration from the Cooter community, but a whole lot of people getting vilified had nothing to do with the unfortunate circumstances on Friday and/or have no ability to rectify the situation as it currently stands.

A good portion of life is how you respond to situations. I feel bad for Cooter but I don't think the Cooter coach tagging Jay Blossom in Facebook posts about integrity is a great way to respond. I get the hurt they must be feeling due to the season concluding in the manner that it did, but man, there has to be some level of civility and decorum when you encounter a bad situation.

Who is Jay Blossom, and how about the decorum of the Principia Scorekeeper?

 

[Moleebo]

According to everything I have read, MSHSAA only cares for private schools so Blair Oaks would be in the same spot I believe

We all consider Blair Oaks private.

 

[Ftballfan16]

I wouldn't categorize any of those listed as victims. I get the frustration from the Cooter community, but a whole lot of people getting vilified had nothing to do with the unfortunate circumstances on Friday and/or have no ability to rectify the situation as it currently stands.

A good portion of life is how you respond to situations. I feel bad for Cooter but I don't think the Cooter coach tagging Jay Blossom in Facebook posts about integrity is a great way to respond. I get the hurt they must be feeling due to the season concluding in the manner that it did, but man, there has to be some level of civility and decorum when you encounter a bad situation.

Your kidding right? You don't think Jay Blossom knew the situation and could of had it corrected? You think he forgot about 2 free throws from a few minutes earlier as well. You think the whole principia bench and scorebook all forgot about 2 free throws. I have no problem with anybody attaching their Integrity or obvious lack of integrity!

 

[TadQueasy]

I wouldn't categorize any of those listed as victims. I get the frustration from the Cooter community, but a whole lot of people getting vilified had nothing to do with the unfortunate circumstances on Friday and/or have no ability to rectify the situation as it currently stands.

A good portion of life is how you respond to situations. I feel bad for Cooter but I don't think the Cooter coach tagging Jay Blossom in Facebook posts about integrity is a great way to respond. I get the hurt they must be feeling due to the season concluding in the manner that it did, but man, there has to be some level of civility and decorum when you encounter a bad situation.

I agree with this. The situation sucks and it is hard to wrap my mind around things happening the way they did. But at some point you have to let it go. Tagging the coach on facebook and begging to play the game again and such is a really bad look.

 

[faurotfield]

Your kidding right? You don't think Jay Blossom knew the situation and could of had it corrected? You think he forgot about 2 free throws from a few minutes earlier as well. You think the whole principia bench and scorebook all forgot about 2 free throws. I have no problem with anybody attaching their Integrity or obvious lack of integrity!

I have no idea. Honestly.

It seems the scorekeeper and 3 refs did as well. And apparently the individual at Principia who was handling their scorebook.

But to me, once we advance past the second quarter I don't know what Principia is supposed to do about it even if they recognize the mistake. Let Cooter score an uncontested layup or something?

If the exact opposite of this situation happened and Cooter won in OT after Principia had two points in regulation not accurately recorded, I don't for a second believe that Cooter would be stepping aside to let Principia go to Springfield. That's my point. It's a bad situation all around.

 

[Moleebo]

I have no idea. Honestly.

It seems the scorekeeper and 3 refs did as well. And apparently the individual at Principia who was handling their scorebook.

But to me, once we advance past the second quarter I don't know what Principia is supposed to do about it even if they recognize the mistake. Let Cooter score an uncontested layup or something?

If the exact opposite of this situation happened and Cooter won in OT after Principia had two points in regulation not accurately recorded, I don't for a second believe that Cooter would be stepping aside to let Principia go to Springfield. That's my point. It's a bad situation all around.

I wouldn't expect the same thing to happen. Score mixups happen from time to time. The procedure to straighten them out involves consulting with the team scorekeepers. Most of the time this can be done in a few seconds. In this case, it is apparent that the Principia scorekeeper pretended that the official scorer was correct. The vast majority of scorekeepers would have done the right thing immediately to help get the score right. That didn't happen in this case. We are to believe that by some incredible coincidence that the scorekeeper for Principia and that official scorekeeper both failed to record 2 made free throws.

And btw I believe the officials on the court could easily lose track of the score, but I don't believe for a second that none of the Principia coaches knew the correct score.

 

[Ftballfan16]

I have no idea. Honestly.

It seems the scorekeeper and 3 refs did as well. And apparently the individual at Principia who was handling their scorebook.

But to me, once we advance past the second quarter I don't know what Principia is supposed to do about it even if they recognize the mistake. Let Cooter score an uncontested layup or something?

If the exact opposite of this situation happened and Cooter won in OT after Principia had two points in regulation not accurately recorded, I don't for a second believe that Cooter would be stepping aside to let Principia go to Springfield. That's my point. It's a bad situation all around.

I agree once the game is over its over. I also agree if the roles were reversed Cooter ain't giving up the win either. My problem is when the situation happened Principia's coach could of said yes there was 2 free throws made. Instead him and his assistants played dumb. I'm sure if you looked close you can see the erased free throws in the Principia book. Would the Cooter coach have stood up and done the right thing? IDK. What i do know is that the Principia coach did not.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

I wouldn't categorize any of those listed as victims. I get the frustration from the Cooter community, but a whole lot of people getting vilified had nothing to do with the unfortunate circumstances on Friday and/or have no ability to rectify the situation as it currently stands.

A good portion of life is how you respond to situations. I feel bad for Cooter but I don't think the Cooter coach tagging Jay Blossom in Facebook posts about integrity is a great way to respond. I get the hurt they must be feeling due to the season concluding in the manner that it did, but man, there has to be some level of civility and decorum when you encounter a bad situation.

Tagging Jay seems a bit juvenile, or at the very least very 2023. That said, there's zero chance Jay forgets those FT's happened. Any coach worth their salt remembers that. Make judgements all you want about what a coach should or shouldn't do in the situation, I have no opinion on that. But there's not a chance in hell he forgot the FTs. Hardly any coach would.

 

[Moleebo]

Tagging Jay seems a bit juvenile, or at the very least very 2023. That said, there's zero chance Jay forgets those FT's happened. Any coach worth their salt remembers that. Make judgements all you want about what a coach should or shouldn't do in the situation, I have no opinion on that. But there's not a chance in hell he forgot the FTs. Hardly any coach would.

I would say maybe the tagging is 2023 but people demonizing the Cooter coach for actually standing up for his players by calling out a lack of integrity is also very 2023. He is supposed to tuck his tail and bow to the power. I have no problem with him, I would be even more scorched earth than Cooter coach.

 

[faurotfield]

Tagging Jay seems a bit juvenile, or at the very least very 2023. That said, there's zero chance Jay forgets those FT's happened. Any coach worth their salt remembers that. Make judgements all you want about what a coach should or shouldn't do in the situation, I have no opinion on that. But there's not a chance in hell he forgot the FTs. Hardly any coach would.

Perhaps you are right. I truly do not know. I feel like there are countless innocent explanations for what occurred on Friday in Farmington. I don't know Jay Blossom at all. Have no opinion on the man. But for a guy that is in the Missouri Sports Hall of Fame and won three state titles at Webster Groves, it seems weird to make a potentially career-defining type move to help screw Cooter out of two points in a state quarterfinal game.

 

[Moleebo]

It is also tragic that a team named after the Duke boys mechanic is not going to be representing in Springfield. Lone Jack also fell in the sectional, definitely in top 5 of Missouri High School Names.

 

[oldroundballer]

Tagging Jay seems a bit juvenile, or at the very least very 2023. That said, there's zero chance Jay forgets those FT's happened. Any coach worth their salt remembers that. Make judgements all you want about what a coach should or shouldn't do in the situation, I have no opinion on that. But there's not a chance in hell he forgot the FTs. Hardly any coach would.

I'm curious if we know exactly what was missing from the book. If it were the FTs I find it hard to believe they couldn't have straightened that out fairly easily. The officials themselves wouldn't have forgotten that Cooter made two just a short time prior. Does anyone know for sure that's what was missing or was it just two points and the board just happened to get adjusted back after the FTs? I could see missing a FG a lot easier than missing two FTs.

 

[Moleebo]

I'm curious if we know exactly what was missing from the book. If it were the FTs I find it hard to believe they couldn't have straightened that out fairly easily. The officials themselves wouldn't have forgotten that Cooter made two just a short time prior. Does anyone know for sure that's what was missing or was it just two points and the board just happened to get adjusted back after the FTs? I could see missing a FG a lot easier than missing two FTs.

Its a good question, but there is some footage and I think the board got adjusted after the free throws, but there were only 8 points total, it shouldn't have been any problem getting that right in a short amount of time. The 2 free throws were put on the scoreboard, but 2 points were taken off shortly after that. It could be possible it wasn't the free throws they missed.

 

[HoopsTournament]

Agreed, but I think the problem lies in the fact that the only book that matters is the official one. Cooters book is really meaningless in this discussion.

Disagree. I have been an official scorekeeper for many years. If both the other books have the FTs in it, then I would admit my mistake and correct it. The official scorebook marked a timeout for the wrong team in a game a couple of years ago and I was able to get it corrected because I demonstrated to the refs and gave them specific time when the error occurred. The main thing is to get it right.

 

[HoopsTournament]

Do the right thing MSHSAA!!! The evidence is 100% indisputable. Cooter should be declared the winner in regulation time.

Cooter admin should seek a court injunction.

There is a problem with this. The end of game would have been played very differently if Cooter would have had 2 more points. You cant just assume they would have won if the score would have been correct earlier.

 

[Moleebo]

There is a problem with this. The end of game would have been played very differently if Cooter would have had 2 more points. You cant just assume they would have won if the score would have been correct earlier.

Maybe not but you can penalize the team that didn't have the correct score in their scorebook, not the team that had the correct score.

 

[oldroundballer]

Maybe not but you can penalize the team that didn't have the correct score in their scorebook, not the team that had the correct score.

Penalize them for what exactly? Their book means nothing. They aren't required to even have one.

 

[3Rfan]

They did check all 3 books. I don't know what all the books had but they went with the one at the table.
I don't believe the person keeping the scorebook tried to cheat anyone. It is a very unfortunate thing. It would seem the only way to fix it would to replay the whole game. But I am sure that probably won't happen.
It was a great game that both teams played really hard.

I've haven't seen anyone say the scorekeeper tried to cheat, most just wonder how in the heck you miss 2 made free throws when that's the only thing going on at the time and everyone else did see it.

 

[3Rfan]

Maybe not but you can penalize the team that didn't have the correct score in their scorebook, not the team that had the correct score.

It wasn't a team, it was the official scorer at the table.

 

[TadQueasy]

Disagree. I have been an official scorekeeper for many years. If both the other books have the FTs in it, then I would admit my mistake and correct it. The official scorebook marked a timeout for the wrong team in a game a couple of years ago and I was able to get it corrected because I demonstrated to the refs and gave them specific time when the error occurred. The main thing is to get it right.

I agree with you, but there seems to be a difference between how you view things as a scorekeeper and how the referees view things.

 

[nwlions]

It would be ideal if in a tournament game, all three scorekeepers sat at the table.

 

[3Rfan]

It would be ideal if in a tournament game, all three scorekeepers sat at the table.

They wouldn't all be side by side even if they did.

 

[Moleebo]

I've haven't seen anyone say the scorekeeper tried to cheat, most just wonder how in the heck you miss 2 made free throws when that's the only thing going on at the time and everyone else did see it.

When there is a scoring dispute the protocols include looking at the team scorebooks. Obviously, the Cooter side pointed out that the score was wrong because two of their points weren't on the scoreboard. The official scorer didn't have it so the obvious next step would be to check the Principia scorebook. I have seen this done numerous times over the years, it usually is straitened out in at most a minute or two. It appears to me Principia didn't have the points recorded either, OR they said they didn't. The official scorekeeper, the Principia Scorekeeper, and all the Coaches on Principia didn't know the correct score? Wow! what a coincidence, and how fortunate for them.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

When there is a scoring dispute the protocols include looking at the team scorebooks. Obviously, the Cooter side pointed out that the score was wrong because two of their points weren't on the scoreboard. The official scorer didn't have it so the obvious next step would be to check the Principia scorebook. I have seen this done numerous times over the years, it usually is straitened out in at most a minute or two. It appears to me Principia didn't have the points recorded either, OR they said they didn't. The official scorekeeper, the Principia Scorekeeper, and all the Coaches on Principia didn't know the correct score? Wow! what a coincidence, and how fortunate for them.

If nothing else, the whole process of a 'protest' game needs to be looked at. There seems to be no way for the aggrieved to win this.
Refs ran off the floor so, 'sorry'?
Has to be a better way.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Perhaps you are right. I truly do not know. I feel like there are countless innocent explanations for what occurred on Friday in Farmington. I don't know Jay Blossom at all. Have no opinion on the man. But for a guy that is in the Missouri Sports Hall of Fame and won three state titles at Webster Groves, it seems weird to make a potentially career-defining type move to help screw Cooter out of two points in a state quarterfinal game.

I'm not questioning anything about anything other than that if there were 8 total points scored by Cooter in the game, I can't imagine any coach with a pulse not being able to recall all 8 points. That seems like a layup to me.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Perhaps you are right. I truly do not know. I feel like there are countless innocent explanations for what occurred on Friday in Farmington. I don't know Jay Blossom at all. Have no opinion on the man. But for a guy that is in the Missouri Sports Hall of Fame and won three state titles at Webster Groves, it seems weird to make a potentially career-defining type move to help screw Cooter out of two points in a state quarterfinal game.

Floyd Irons is a HOF'er too. I have no opinions on Coach Blossom at all either, but I can offer up an example of simply being in the HOF not being a prerequisite for having high morals in regards to the rules of basketball. And I'll add this, I'm not really sure it's Jay's job to correct it. You can make judgements on if he should or shouldn't, but I don't really think it's on him to speak up and correct it. That's what the scorers and the officials are for. My point all along has been when there's 6 or 8 points scored by the opposing team, any coach that's paying attention knows those points and probably who scored them.