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QofD (Question of the Day) Contact Days

MOsportsStaff

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Recently MSHSAA, basketball advisory committee met and confirmed 20 days as the number of days a sport may "legally" work with their players in the summer months. Some states have no contact, others unlimited.

What are your thoughts on the contact rule in Missouri?
 
Don't agree with it at all. How does MSHSAA even enforce the rule? I'm sure there are teams/schools that don't follow the rule put in place right now anyway. Open the summer up for all sports with unlimited contact days and let each program decide for themselves how much time they want to put into the off season. I'd go one step further and open up the entire calendar and not limit "contact" days during the school year also. If the people involved (coaches, players, parents, schools) are fine with having contact days/"practicing" year around, let them. Why should they be told they can't improve their programs, or how to improve their programs?
 
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Grip it and Rip it said:
Don't agree with it at all. How does MSHSAA even enforce the rule? I'm sure there are teams/schools that don't follow the rule put in place right now anyway. Open the summer up for all sports with unlimited contact days and let each program decide for themselves how much time they want to put into the off season. I'd go one step further and open up the entire calendar and not limit "contact" days during the school year also. If the people involved (coaches, players, parents, schools) are fine with having contact days/"practicing" year around, let them. Why should they be told they can't improve their programs, or how to improve their programs?
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Exactly! Nobody enforces it. Taking it down from 25 to 20 I thought was a mistake.
 
I like the rule. I wish it were maybe more like 25 days but I'm not going to loose my mind over 5 days. There are plenty of ways to get around the limited contact days legally anyways if you use your brain. But I do like them for this reason. Some coaches will schedule a ton of stuff make them mandatory and not allow the multi sport athletes to have a chance to participate in other sports over the summer as well. This would put the kid in a difficult spot. They now have to choose which sport they like the most and only play that one. It also hinders the development of other sports.

Basically a coach could say, we are having open gym 3 days a week. They are optional but we will be having tryouts. So come to what you want. Now the coach says optional but we know what he means.
 
In the above post: This is where the AD should get involved with the coaches and line out the off season days. Coaches, especially in small schools, have to work with each other since their share so many of the same athletes.

I don't think a coach won't cut a kid if they don't show up to open gyms and the kid would help the coach win.
 
Of course not a top talent but those kids that are on fence may get cut. Plus what happens in those small schools when your AD is the coach that becomes the problem?
 
Grip it and Rip it said:
Don't agree with it at all. How does MSHSAA even enforce the rule? I'm sure there are teams/schools that don't follow the rule put in place right now anyway. Open the summer up for all sports with unlimited contact days and let each program decide for themselves how much time they want to put into the off season. I'd go one step further and open up the entire calendar and not limit "contact" days during the school year also. If the people involved (coaches, players, parents, schools) are fine with having contact days/"practicing" year around, let them. Why should they be told they can't improve their programs, or how to improve their programs?
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^^^This^^^ X one million...If coaches want to work, and players want to work...Why not let them? Dumb.
 
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you_dont_know_me said:
Summer vacation...for athletes and coaches...that is mandatory...family time...yeah...totally dumb.
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That's my point...take the time...WHENEVER YOU WANT...but don't hinder those that want to work. Free marketplace rules. Offseason stuff isn't mandatory, we all know that. Hell, anymore I wonder if in season stuff is mandatory. Let kids and coaches work together and get better if they want.
 
If you don't make downtime mandatory, coaches will take heat for not working every day in the offseason, and then if they don't have success, the school board will have a leg to stand on when they gripe. Kids can go get better anyways, dead week and non contact days don't mean they can't get in the gym or in the weight room or on the field.
 
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you_dont_know_me said:
If you don't make downtime mandatory, coaches will take heat for not working every day in the offseason, and then if they don't have success, the school board will have a leg to stand on when they gripe.
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That's going to happen regardless. If boards want you gone badly enough, they'll find a way...It's amazing, we operated for many, many years without these stupid restrictions and things were just fine. All these things do is protect the people that don't want to work.
 
I always think its funny the generation that complains about other younger generations not wanting to work hard is the cause of the whole problem. Happens all the time in schools.

As a coach the reason I like it that it gives those kids a chance to unwind and play all the other sports that they want to. In some places kids NEED to work as well to help out mom and/or dad.
 
midmoguy said:
I always think its funny the generation that complains about other younger generations not wanting to work hard is the cause of the whole problem. Happens all the time in schools.

As a coach the reason I like it that it gives those kids a chance to unwind and play all the other sports that they want to. In some places kids NEED to work as well to help out mom and/or dad.
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All of those things can be accomplished without the restrictions. If a kid needs to work, go work. If you want to go on vacation, go on vacation. If you want to have an open gym, or go to summer league, or play in 7 on 7 league, then do it. I just don't get why this is such a difficult concept.

My point is simple, the regulation isn't needed. Life is all about decisions. Do I work? Do I play? Do I manage both? Adults too. Allowing people to make decisions, rather than placing a bunch of arbitrary rules in places they're not needed. What precipitated the contact days rule to begin with? And how in the world were MO HS sports able to operate without them?
 
Take the restriction away and yes MO HS sports will continue on and not much will change most likely. We may have increased injuries to athletes who play to much, we may have burn out of players who play to much.

But hey as long as it was their decision who cares. No other level of competition have restrictions on how much you can practice or what not. Not the NCAA not the Pro levels. Its just a free for all all year long.
 
midmoguy said:
Take the restriction away and yes MO HS sports will continue on and not much will change most likely. We may have increased injuries to athletes who play to much, we may have burn out of players who play to much...This already happens with parents and club stuff. At least with coaches they'll have professionals controlling it. For the record, not many basketball players get hurt doing skill work...

But hey as long as it was their decision who cares. No other level of competition have restrictions on how much you can practice or what not. Not the NCAA not the Pro levels. Its just a free for all all year long...Any clue what those "restrictions" look like compared to what MSHSAA's look like? Take a peak, it's insane. College athletes and NBA players also have the resources to get their own help (Drew Hanlen, et al) and the facilities to do it in.
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invicto said:
Has there been a single reported violation of summer contact days, ever? Eliminate the rule, expand the dead period to at least 10 days and enforce it strictly. Coaches want time off too, no way anybody ends up burning up 40+ contact days. And in a small school, if coaches/ADs can't figure out how or aren't willing to share athletes, they aren't worth their stipend.
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Couldn't agree more. I like the extended dead period too. That's far more favorable than 20 days to be able to do something.
 
MOsportsStaff said:
So you are a math teacher and the kid comes to you and says can you help me with my math....Why no, I'm sorry I've already helped you 20 days.......
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If only people at MSHSAA would use that same logic! Somewhere behind that ludicrous contact rule, MSHSAA is making money. Have to be because we know its not in the best interest of the kids
 
Cant-Coach-Just-Blog said:
If only people at MSHSAA would use that same logic! Somewhere behind that ludicrous contact rule, MSHSAA is making money. Have to be because we know its not in the best interest of the kids
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Problem is, your AD's voted it in years back. Or at least I think they did.
 
Great topic.

I think a better solution is for each district to have a mandatory two week dead period and then enforce it with stiff penalties. That gives athletes and coaches time off for vacations and other things, and allows time away from each other. The key here is enforcement and it should come with a significant fine for everyone involved if broken.

I think the way the rules are set up now it rewards programs that skirt the rules and the private instructor and travel ball business. I have nothing against private instructors or travel ball, it's a free market and more power to them, but kids that have resources and programs with kids who have resources (and programs in closer proximity to travel ball teams)are at a significant advantage.

I would say 90 percent of the programs in my area that are successful have kids who are playing an abundance of basketball and are in the gym working or playing outside of the 20 contact days, even if it's off school grounds. The coach is benefitting from their hard work outside of those 20 contact days, meaning it's quite possible, in some programs, the kids are putting in more time than the coach.

Maybe that's the way some would like it, but it shouldn't be something that is required.

The parameters for work should always benefit those who want to do more of it, not less. To me, the rules as currently constructed, exist, in part, to protect those who would prefer to do less.
 
Unfortunately there's always a few who screw things up for the rest. If there wasn't some kind of rule there'd be some coaches who would require daily attendance all summer and penalize kids for missing. This is just a way for ADs and boards to not have to deal with it. They can just point to the state rule.
 
oldroundballer said:
Unfortunately there's always a few who screw things up for the rest. If there wasn't some kind of rule there'd be some coaches who would require daily attendance all summer and penalize kids for missing. This is just a way for ADs and boards to not have to deal with it. They can just point to the state rule.
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That program won't survive very long, plus that is already against rules. You cannot take attendance for voluntary workouts...then it is implied that attendance is no longer voluntary.

The contact day rules have forced families of dedicated athletes to spend extra money to train at other places, sometimes receiving poorer coaching. This also weeds out the athletes who cannot afford to do play anything.

I see the point of the dead period, and would be fine with more dead periods throughout the year.

The contact day rule limits kids who want to get better but don't have the resources to do so.

If you are a baseball and football player at our school, we work with each other for 7 on 7 and summer weights and open fields and everything. And sometimes a kid needs a day off. However, if that kid/family is a dedicated baseball player, and wants more than twenty days of organized instruction and activity, they will pay $4000 to play on a summer team that will not work with football, sometimes causing that sport to "lose" that kid.

The contact day rule hurts some of our best athletes and families, putting unnecessary strain on them/their families.
 
High school coachs get unhappy with kids and parents talking about there club team coach. If they were allowed more contact then kids would just play with there school teams and that would solve one problem that school coachs deal with.
 
EdSmith1234 said:
High school coachs get unhappy with kids and parents talking about there club team coach. If they were allowed more contact then kids would just play with there school teams and that would solve one problem that school coachs deal with.
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Not likely, they like to play summer ball where they can run wild and not worry so much about defense.
 
As a coach from a small school that has to share 90% of the athletes I would rather see the following implemented instead of contact days:

last week of May-last week of June only Winter Sports activities
last week of June to dead week in July only Fall Sports activities

Select Baseball/Softball obviously are playing during the summer nights/weekends

That eliminates coaches fighting over athletes, coaches have some summer to themselves/families (and they can actually plan vacations), and families with multi-sport athletes still have the dead period to go on vacations.
 
few fun items to add....

there are great arguments both ways...
why punish hard workers, unscrupulous, unchecked "non-school coaches" giving private lessons,kids being pulled too many directions, obtrusive club coaches, etc

I find myself agreeing with both sides at times...BUT

-parents complained about contact to administrators who do the voting on the mshsaa ballot....passed dominantly to limit contact.
.
-it might be easy to think that there is a divide between coaches and their admin on this issue except that the BB advisory committee heard all sides of the issue and that group of coaches chose to go on the record by voting to leave it at 20 (it was NOT unanimous though). I think of that being a bit of a compromise number between the 2 sides.
.
-someone mentioned keeping attendance.....some nefarious coaches skirt the attendance issue by keeping records for possible health or injury records/claims later. You and I both know that the kids see coach checking names they "know what the score is".
..
the silent majority does not weigh in on the message board....but right now, they don't want unlimited contact by the school coaches in the summer.
.
so....whoever said "agree to disagree"....may have hit it on the nose.
 
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nwbball said:
few fun items to add....

there are great arguments both ways...
why punish hard workers, unscrupulous, unchecked "non-school coaches" giving private lessons,kids being pulled too many directions, obtrusive club coaches, etc

I find myself agreeing with both sides at times...BUT

-parents complained about contact to administrators who do the voting on the mshsaa ballot....passed dominantly to limit contact.
.
-it might be easy to think that there is a divide between coaches and their admin on this issue except that the BB advisory committee heard all sides of the issue and that group of coaches chose to go on the record by voting to leave it at 20 (it was NOT unanimous though). I think of that being a bit of a compromise number between the 2 sides.
.
-someone mentioned keeping attendance.....some nefarious coaches skirt the attendance issue by keeping records for possible health or injury records/claims later. You and I both know that the kids see coach checking names they "know what the score is".
..
the silent majority does not weigh in on the message board....but right now, they don't want unlimited contact by the school coaches in the summer.
.
so....whoever said "agree to disagree"....may have hit it on the nose.
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Parents want the easy out, that's why they complain. Don't want their kids to have to actually make a tough choice. Not sure when that failed to become okay. And the coaches keeping score thing is fine, but I'm here to tell you this...If I've never seen a kid at one single offseason event, and he shows up the first day of practice, and can play. Guess what? He's getting a uniform and a spot. And if you want his spot, you're going to have to work to get it.

I get the give and take and both sides argument. I just think it's trash. Only reason these things exist is because we think parents, who don't want to tell their kids to make a choice, complained. And the admin they complained to don't want to tell them to have their kids make a choice. We hide behind the premise a coach is taking roll to somehow increase/decrease odds of someone getting to play when they actually start keeping W/L records. If a coach is doing that, he deserves his fate. Really important to understand, offseason should be all about getting the individual better. If you can hammer that home, all of this contact day stuff seems silly.
 
Why do so many teams play in team leagues in the summer? Wouldn't that time be better spent working on individual skills? Shooting, ball handling, ect. We say summer is for getting better individually but then we want to play a bunch of games. How many shots does a player get off in a typical summer league game? How many could he get off in the gym during that same amount of time? I just don't get why it's become the thing to play leagues. Is it because kids aren't interested in individual work and playing a game is the only way to get them to do anything?
 
That is the culture that has been created over the last 15-20 years. IMO coaches MUST do these types of summer activities, otherwise it becomes cause for termination. It's an easy out (for parents) to say, "You aren't doing enough with the players to make them better". It has turned into a "Keeping up the with Jones" effect. The problem is player/parent commitment. They want to enjoy their summer (as does everyone), but at the same time complain that the team isn't any good. They can't have it both ways; either put in the time and effort (year round), or expect poor results. So many people want their cake and eat it too. They think winning is easy.
 
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Grip it you are so right. It takes a combination of coaches, players and parents. They all either have to put the time and effort in or it will not work.
 
Some of the best teams I have seen play had a summer program set up like this.
Leagues coached by trusted parents.
Gym time ran by coach.
Lets kids play which is important allows coaches time to work on individual skills which is more important.

That brings in every level (players, parents, and coaches). Get them all involved and things can be fine.
 
midmoguy said:
Some of the best teams I have seen play had a summer program set up like this.
Leagues coached by trusted parents.
Gym time ran by coach.
Lets kids play which is important allows coaches time to work on individual skills which is more important.

That brings in every level (players, parents, and coaches). Get them all involved and things can be fine.
Click to expand...
Ha, yes, let the parents get involved...great idea. :)
 
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