Private vs Public
- Thread starter SoWalHawks
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yea tell that to John Bourghs when they had Ezkiell Elliot (excuse my lousy spelling). Elliot was from Illinois from what I remember.
When a school can pull people from such a wide area in a suburban setting you setup the Class 2 and 3 powerhouses that can play with their Class 5 and 6 neighbors who can only pull from their district (if district rules don't allow students from outside those boundries to enroll.
I had some people on twittering the other day saying Blair Oaks pulls from a suburban area of 50k (Blair Oaks is not a private school and doesn't allow outside of district enrollees). The person twittering stated this thinking this is why Blair Oaks has been traditionally somewhat of a powerhouse for the past 15 years. Which is not the reason at all.
When a school can pull people from such a wide area in a suburban setting you setup the Class 2 and 3 powerhouses that can play with their Class 5 and 6 neighbors who can only pull from their district (if district rules don't allow students from outside those boundries to enroll.
I had some people on twittering the other day saying Blair Oaks pulls from a suburban area of 50k (Blair Oaks is not a private school and doesn't allow outside of district enrollees). The person twittering stated this thinking this is why Blair Oaks has been traditionally somewhat of a powerhouse for the past 15 years. Which is not the reason at all.
You do understand MSHSAA has nothing to do with the public school system right? It was founded and started by both public AND private schools. I might be wrong and for some reason I can't pull it up on their page, but last time I looked at mshsaa's financial reports I thought I remember seeing a number over $1million. So if they are forced to separate, I am sure they will put up a fight for the share of their money.
I think the success modifier is a decent idea in principle because it elevates the smaller high performing schools into a more appropriate level of competition. But in reality it's much more complicated and overall I don't care for the concept.
What I do find more interesting is one state I read about that uses participation rates among other things including poverty etc to move a school up (or down) from their enrollment based classification. Enrollment only recognizes theoretical depth and talent pool but doesn't account for schools with other factors going on that ultimately help or hurt the numbers that end up on the field and sideline. So for example if a school like Springfield Central has 1600 students but only gets 35 kids out for football they are get moved down and maybe more than one level especially if poverty is widespread among students because that tends to translate into low participation lack of focus and instability. A school like Webb City that has 1100 students and 150 kids playing football gets moved up to class 6 because their actual football numbers are in line with class 6 schools.
I do like the idea of separating private schools but you also have to keep in mind that not every private school focuses on athletics. No one around here is complaining about College Heights or TJ. Like anything there is no perfect solution. Some schools (even some publics) are just going to be better and have fortunate circumstances that other schools will never be able to replicate no matter what they do.
What I do find more interesting is one state I read about that uses participation rates among other things including poverty etc to move a school up (or down) from their enrollment based classification. Enrollment only recognizes theoretical depth and talent pool but doesn't account for schools with other factors going on that ultimately help or hurt the numbers that end up on the field and sideline. So for example if a school like Springfield Central has 1600 students but only gets 35 kids out for football they are get moved down and maybe more than one level especially if poverty is widespread among students because that tends to translate into low participation lack of focus and instability. A school like Webb City that has 1100 students and 150 kids playing football gets moved up to class 6 because their actual football numbers are in line with class 6 schools.
I do like the idea of separating private schools but you also have to keep in mind that not every private school focuses on athletics. No one around here is complaining about College Heights or TJ. Like anything there is no perfect solution. Some schools (even some publics) are just going to be better and have fortunate circumstances that other schools will never be able to replicate no matter what they do.
Carthage isn't exactly a wealthy school district and they are usually near the top end of the scale in terms of number of student athletes. Also, schools like Lamar are going to have more players than normal for a Class 2 football team not only for their success, but the fact that Lamar does not have soccer or other fall sports.
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There are three kinds of beer 1. Hot 2. Free . 3. Cold
Good lord, that's the most 2018 thing I've ever seen.
That’s true. But other fall sports fail in com
How dare you kind sir!
If you guys can't see the issue with this then it doesn't matter to have the conversation. Blinders are up regardless. It is a huge unfair advantage these schools that are private have. Who cares if a Valle has to play a CBC....No one cares about students transfering in the middle of the season to a private school and the schools that are being destroyed for this. No one cares about the recruiting going on in peewee football. Not to mention the money factor thats involved with the private schools with the "donations" and "friends of the the program". I dont want to hear people talking about students lineing up to pay for tuition at these private schools to play sports....These good players are paying to attend these private schools??? Get the hell out of here if you believe that. There is way more behind this situation then you guys even understand...sports peformance academies, football camps by high school private coaches? Look more into the situation and see who is attending these things and where these kids decide to attend. Wake up and don't be ignorant.
Carthage is not exactly poor either. Carthage and Monett are very similar in they both have a very diverse school culture and two very different social backgrounds of kids. Carthage recently has done a good job of getting kids out, but really for all the success they have had, if you look at their numbers of participation in football, for the size of their community they don't have large numbers and that goes all the way down into their youth program. They currently just have some really good athletes in the program, and I do think once you reach a certain size you can overcome certain obstacles that a smaller diverse culture school has to contend with if you have the right balance.
At Monett we have a lot of kids who right now just do not participate in sports or any activities to be honest, be it band, speech and debate whatever, Well soccer we seem to have a high participation rate in that right now, and well we are in the final four again. But when you have just 760 kids and say 40% of them will not participate in anything just competing in anything is hard you have to have a really strong class come thru. But really I don't know if it would be a huge boost in our win totals at this point in football if we saw a large participation rate increase, there are a few who could probable help out, but I don't now that there is a lot of stud athletes walking the halls who are not already playing the sports. I think it would be a boost for sure, but not sure at this point how many of are athletes, that would help increase the talent level substantially? But you have to work everyday in trying to figure out how to get more kids involved and in more activities, from youth all the way up to high school. It just takes time. But we currently just don't have enough good athletes to compete with the elite of class 4.
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That was AWESOME! I was starting to think there wasn’t going to be anyone really get emotional about the subject and I’d have to drink this coffee without the deliciously salty tears I enjoy so much. You should storm MSHSAA’s meetings during the off-season and demand reform! Point out the grand conspiracy you’ve uncovered. I don’t think you’ll be able to get past the metal detectors with your foil hat, so make sure you scream extra loud to get your point across to them and they’ll know how serious you are.
You may be right but Bullit's comments are spot on in my opinion. Given the size of the school I have always found Carthage numbers fairly unimpressive for many if not most extracurriculars especially given the success they have in many of them. Football has ticked upward recently but just a few years ago I heard a comment from a coach that low numbers was often a challenge to overcome. I could be wrong but even now I think they are just about on par for a class 5 football. I would wager they are below average participation for most activities and I think a lot of that has to do with a large chunk of the enrollment (hispanics) living in unstable housing and economic situations that does not lend itself to playing sports or succeeding in school in general. Aside from soccer and maybe track this group appears to participate in extra curriculars in absurdly low rates given their % of the population.
What if Missouri had open-enrollment like Arizona and Florida does? Give every public high school the same level of funding from the state and allow kids to attend whatever public school their families choose to send them to? If a school is outside of a specific distance, then the parents are responsible for transporting their kids themselves. Families can put their kids in whatever school they want and public schools can all pull kids from wherever they want to.
Lmao the points your bring up or shall I say you didn't bring a point up besides conspiracy lol So you are going to say that there is no advantage with private schools? They don't seek players they want? Sounds like you are the one with the hurt feelings. By the way...I threw out facts to a conversation. You are diverting the topic.
This is the stupid debate. Missouri is not big enough to separate public from private and the private schools do not dominate consistent enough. If you pay attention public schools are far more dynasties than Private schools do. Not to mention public schools are just as guilty of recruiting.
Also, for those fearing that private schools would step out and form their own organization that if MSHSAA were to arrange a split, there's nothing stopping that from happening now. Springfield Lighthouse Christian can lay claim to all of the so-called "homeschool national championships" that they have while struggling to compete with average MSHSAA schools.
I agree that some private schools recruit to a degree. Some don't. But what about the public schools that do? It has become very evident that the KC Suburban Conference might as well have an amateur draft and free agency every off season. Has become a real issue in the last 5-7 years. If you don't want to go kiss ass to Youth League players and parents, you're going to lose out on players. And if Little Johnny Backup and his parental units aren't happy with his role, they're probably on the phone with another HC somewhere.
True but all things come to a end. If we continue to let this proceed that will all come to a stop. Do you not see a problem with a school being able to change classes from a year to year basis because they can control the amount of students they have? Can public schools do that?
Every private school recruits. That’s how schools that don’t have their enrollments forced upon families based upon the municipal school district they live in work. It isn’t an new issue and it hasn’t gotten worse over the last 5-7 years. It’s been this way for decades. That being said, its patently false to pretend that parents don’t move their kids to public schools for athletics or any other reason. In fact, THE easiest way to gain an eligibility exception from MSHSAA is to move into another district. Don’t believe me? Go ask the Kirkwood AD that’s on this forum. They got a D1 kid from another school this season and it’s because he moved into the district. Did his family do it for sports? I don’t care and I don’t think it should matter. That’s where they wanted to send their kid, so they moved. Great for them, good for Kirkwood, sucks for his old school in St. Charles County (womp womp). It’s also untrue that public schools don’t recruit. The Parkway District has 4 high schools and residents can send their kids to the one they choose. Thinking the coaches at those 4 schools don’t recruit kids is just denial. My solution is just as unlikely to happen as the cries to disband MSHSAA and split into 2 divisions. Many public school parents moved to the districts they’re in so they wouldn’t have “certain kids” with their own. Idk about rural Missouri, but it’s precisely why people fled The City for The County in St. Louis.
Still, I am SUPREMELY amused when the evils of private schools come up regarding high school athletics in Missouri. I don’t want to change your mind anymore than I want you to stop your posts about it. Please continue.
By "recruiting," I meant specifically for athletic purposes. Not every private school does that. Some do. And not every public school does it. Some do. And I was only speaking to the KC Suburban schools. In that area, yes, it has gotten worse in the last few years.
Trying to compare the 2 to make you feel good is comical lol These families have to move into the district unlike the private school set up. Quit trying to dress up your opinion to make it sound correct and shut down the others with "you are cry babies' approach. The system should be changed.
Trinity had a tweet that's no longer there that offered a free ticket, soda, and food item on an "8th grade football night". I'm not smart enough to know how to upload the screen shot.
I don't know....According to FbisLife it is the same as public schools lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!
At Monett we have a lot of kids who right now just do not participate in sports or any activities to be honest, be it band, speech and debate whatever, Well soccer we seem to have a high participation rate in that right now, and well we are in the final four again. But when you have just 760 kids and say 40% of them will not participate in anything just competing in anything is hard you have to have a really strong class come thru. But really I don't know if it would be a huge boost in our win totals at this point in football if we saw a large participation rate increase, there are a few who could probable help out, but I don't now that there is a lot of stud athletes walking the halls who are not already playing the sports. I think it would be a boost for sure, but not sure at this point how many of are athletes, that would help increase the talent level substantially? But you have to work everyday in trying to figure out how to get more kids involved and in more activities, from youth all the way up to high school. It just takes time. But we currently just don't have enough good athletes to compete with the elite of class 4.[/QUOTE]
Since Monett does not currently have enough good athletes to compete with the elite of class 4... When enrollments are turned in this spring to MSHSAA, they should just turn in an enrollment that will put them in a classification they can compete in. Not a likely scenario... however.
As I posted earlier Ritter and Trinity both provided MSHSAA with false inflated enrollments for this cycle ('18-'19) to get bumped up to Class 3. If both schools were honest and provided actual enrollments they would be in class 2... in a district with Lutheran North... again
Their arrogance manipulated the entire MSHSAA classification process to avoid being in this district. Why did Cardinal Ritter and Trinity Catholic get to dictate what class they wanted to compete in?
Since Monett does not currently have enough good athletes to compete with the elite of class 4... When enrollments are turned in this spring to MSHSAA, they should just turn in an enrollment that will put them in a classification they can compete in. Not a likely scenario... however.
As I posted earlier Ritter and Trinity both provided MSHSAA with false inflated enrollments for this cycle ('18-'19) to get bumped up to Class 3. If both schools were honest and provided actual enrollments they would be in class 2... in a district with Lutheran North... again
Their arrogance manipulated the entire MSHSAA classification process to avoid being in this district. Why did Cardinal Ritter and Trinity Catholic get to dictate what class they wanted to compete in?
I tried running a promotion like that one time. I didn't go over so well.......
Surely you're not dumb enough to believe the two schools did this to dodge Lutheran North. First, Trinity and LN look forward to playing one another, and I know this for sure. Secondly, the two teams are 1-1 against one another the last couple of years, so who is dodfing who? Third, Cardinal Ritterbhas not even faced LN the last couple of years in the playoffs. Guess who they did face, though? Trinity. So why would they move up to class 3 to dodge a team they haven't really faced only to possibly play the same team that has beaten them twice the precious season. Your theory makes no sense.
Some of you hate these schools just because. At first it was "Trinity isn't for real and won't win Class 3." Now that it's clear that they are a legit contender to win Class 3, now they moved up to avoid LN. Good grief...
To blind to see the real point....There is no control on the enrollment of private schools. They can go up and down as much as they want which also throws other teams in different classes. Who cares why they went up and down, the point is they went up and down and they are doing it in shady ways. The numbers don't lie.
All I care about is you saying they moved up to avoid LN, which is false. I don't care to know why they did, but one thing I do know is it wasn't to avoid a team they have had success against.
I know because I'm fairly close to both programs, one more than the other. ALSO, this coaching staff has nothing to do with 2005 as the just came onboard a few years ago. Now tell me how do you know they did this to avoid LN? You can't.
What facts? You don't have any. You can speculate All You want, but the fact is you don't know why either team moved up.
Niether do you!!! Overall records of the program aren't set up with what you choose to pull from them. Since 2005 LN has beat them all but 2 times. Sounds like a pretty dominate fact. You can't sit there and act like you know for a fact they didn't do that.
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