Pitching Limits released!
- Thread starter THE-TRUTH
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I really like them. I think it is a good progressive plan to help pitching development in our state. I am a Class 5 coach, and I understand smaller schools' concerns...however, I think this will be good for development and make coaches work with more than their top couple of pitchers every year.
Some very good thoughts. I would like to offer my perspective coming from a small school baseball environment. From that perspective, I contend that this may actually hurt development of players in general. I know many small schools that will now have to cancel JV games just to insure that they have enough pitching to cover their varsity schedule. Therefore, a lot of young players are going to lose playing time. This will also negatively effect the quality of baseball being played in the state, especially at the small school level. When you have 10 players on the roster, how many can realistically be developed into a pitcher? I've seen teams that were lucky to have 2 kids who could consistently throw the ball over the plate. So what happens? You have a game that is 22-2 and goes 5 innings because the state won't allow a 15-run rule. Nothing burns up pitches like having to go 5 innings when you are losing by 20. So that team has to use both kids who can sorta throw the ball over the plate in one game - who do they throw 2 days later in their next contest.
Another beef I have with this is that by doing this, we have punished kids who have spent the time and work to condition their bodies and arms to withstand a higher pitch count. In short, I don't like this decision. I understand why the decision was made and I believe the intentions are mostly good, I just don't like it. Maybe I am too old-school. Thanks for listening.
I have tried to understand the small school perspective on this but I still don't like the arguments that I am hearing. Yes big schools will typically have an advantage because of player depth/numbers but when I think of WHY these rules were put into place my head instantly goes to some big school coaching in my area that have over used their pitching relentlessly.
There are countless examples of top line pitching in our area--kids who put in a lot of work to condition their arms and bodies to throw with maximum intent and effort--college arms--whose arms and careers have been hampered because of a coach that values a "W" more than his players safety and future. If Clayton Kershaw is never asked to throw 135 pitches on a Tuesday (which he never would), close out the game on Thursday, then throw another 120 on Saturday, why should we ask a 17 year old to do the same? I understand the concern from a small school perspective due to lack of depth but if there are only 2 kids on a roster that can throw the ball over the plate then I'd say the problem goes far beyond pitch counts.
I think they are much needed. I've watched coaches throw their guys way too much, and no game is worth winning at the cost of a kids arm.
I see it both ways. But you take a class one team that has 10 to 13 players on a roster it will hurt.
This will change the game for class 1 and 2 schools. Not only the game itself but the scheduling of games. I also see a lot of JV games either lower the innings of the games or not even playing them. You will probably see the kids pitching JV games that have never pitched before.
The biggest adjustment will be the days rest for a lot of coaches. For example, I had a kid that if he threw at all, say 30+ pitches on a day he was going to need at least two days before he could throw again. If he reached above 60, he was going to need three maybe four days anyway. I had another kid that could throw 60 one day and a throw another 30 the next, followed by throwing 60-70 two days after throwing 30 pitches. The difference? One is just the difference in kids and the other was the second kid was throwing for two months in morning workouts before season even started.
It comes down to 1) knowing your kids' arms, 2) Not being stupid when it comes to your kids' arms, 3) having guys arms conditioned, and 4) knowing limitations of your kids. I am a coach that in 24 games last season only had four games where guys went over 80 pitches and the highest was 96; in a no hitter of a seven inning game. You have to be smart and utilize your kids in ways that is best for them short term and long term.
As for JV games this is a great opportunity to learn what freshmen and sophomores could become something, even if they have never thrown before. A coach in SWMO told me once that every team he has had has always had 9-10 pitchers, because he began working with them as freshmen. Sometimes you find a golden nugget you never knew you had.
It comes down to 1) knowing your kids' arms, 2) Not being stupid when it comes to your kids' arms, 3) having guys arms conditioned, and 4) knowing limitations of your kids. I am a coach that in 24 games last season only had four games where guys went over 80 pitches and the highest was 96; in a no hitter of a seven inning game. You have to be smart and utilize your kids in ways that is best for them short term and long term.
As for JV games this is a great opportunity to learn what freshmen and sophomores could become something, even if they have never thrown before. A coach in SWMO told me once that every team he has had has always had 9-10 pitchers, because he began working with them as freshmen. Sometimes you find a golden nugget you never knew you had.
Not a fan still. Throw a kid 65 pitches on Monday and he cannot throw until Friday? It is still about knowing your kids and not being stupid about their arms. Most coaches I have talked to find it to be tedious and more work than needs to be done. What are we going to do about these kids during summer ball? Where is the accountability there? From my experience, the summer is when arms are damaged because of overwork and fatigue.
I don't coach baseball but I do teach and am very close with our baseball coach and I know he is already worried about the pitch limits. We have only played 1 game and have had 3 or 4 rain outs already. Chances of making up all these games are slim to none, and if we do we won't have the guys to pitch. We very well could throw a freshman in a varsity game simply because they are the only ones left who can pitch. Not sure I love the rule, I understand the rule just don't think it will work out as well as they think.
JV games will go to crap at small schools as well. Our coach already has to throw guys that aren't ready to throw in high school games because we may have to play 5 games in 6 days. That could easily mean you need 10-15 pitchers!!! Good luck!!!
JV games will go to crap at small schools as well. Our coach already has to throw guys that aren't ready to throw in high school games because we may have to play 5 games in 6 days. That could easily mean you need 10-15 pitchers!!! Good luck!!!
Simple solution to the above problem: DEVELOP PITCHERS. Too many coaches have ridden the same 2-3 guys for years. It simply doesn't work. I do understand the small school concerns however.
Should have clarified we are a 2A school. Also how many pitchers should you develop? If a coach can turn any player into an effective pitcher I don't think they will be coaching high school very long.
We have 19 players on our squad. If we have 5 games in 6 days with JV and Varsity both playing each night, don't you think almost everyone of those guys need to be able to pitch? And what are the chances of that happening?!
We have 19 players on our squad. If we have 5 games in 6 days with JV and Varsity both playing each night, don't you think almost everyone of those guys need to be able to pitch? And what are the chances of that happening?!
If the 15-after-3 rule was re-instituted, would that help? I think smaller schools see these scores more often that larger schools.
That would help drastically in some cases, and I see even a 12 after 4 being beneficial as well. You have Class 1 teams that have two or three pitchers on a 9 player team playing Class 2 teams with 7-8 pitchers on a 20 player team. Games like that are 22-2 after five innings. For example, we played a team and won by 15 and we only had 7 hits, were walked 11 times and hit 5 times in 3 innings. They threw four kids and the combined pitch count after three innings for them was 130+. They game also took almost 2 hours.
They also had to turn around and play the next two days. Not easy for Class 1 teams that are not very good and are still trying to get better. They even forfeited one of those games I believe. The pitch count still hurt them after 15-after-3 rule. So who knows what will be best?
just came from a JH game. three team tourney 5 inning games.. the last game of the day was with a young man on the mound and walked bases full and wild pitch here and there and finally a 10 run lead.. ballgame. that is what it will be you will see is a throw away game to save pitchers and pitch count.. an old coach told me one time there are throwers and there are pitchers. developing pitchers is a great idea in concept but you have to start with something the player has to have a little ability to even start to pitch.
I coach at a 2A school (NCA). We haven't ran into any problems yet however, with the 6-7 rainouts we have and trying to schedule them all now it is going to become a problem on a 5-6 game week. I get why we did it and I respect it. But it does hurt small school teams a lot. We have 22 on our roster so not us so much and we scheduled smart to where our #1 or #2 can throw twice each week even on 4 days rest. It makes you really focus on organization of your rotation which is frustrating but yet also quite fun I must say. So I am neutral.
You have to have a staff similar to a small college school haha. Guys that can start, a middle reliever that can throw effectively for two innings and minimize pitches, and a closer that can close the door in a inning or so under 30 pitches. Not many small schools have that and will be competitive.
This rule is ruining the game. Games are lasting over 2 and a half hours. Freshman are having to pitch due to the rule. They will lose confidence and switch to track. Hearing that already. If the kid throws to many pitches and moves to another position how many balls will he throw. If its catcher just as many. The game I saw last night had an umpire that had such a tight strike zone. So the pitches kept mounting up.
I will agree that zones have seemed to be pretty tight with the umpires that we have had this season. Kids that are inconsistent in hitting spots will struggle to get strikes and most coaches I know are telling the kids to be patient and force the pitch count up as well. Those two things are not a great combination for swift pace of game.
Sorry but I'm really tried of all the excuses. Based on all the complaints I think MSHSAA is right on track with these guidelines because it's obvious to me that many were overusing the same arms based on the complaints I'm hearing here. It's been stated above, develop more pitching! Make it a focal point in your off-season programs and stop abusing arms. If you want to petition MSHSAA to mandate larger strike zone as a point of emphasis, that's okay. But there is NO way you can justify to me that it's okay to overuse these these kids because you want a quicker pace or you don't want to take the time to develop. Rant over.........
I do not think most people abuse arms, some may and that does need to be fixed. I like the idea of the rule just need a little tweaking, slight change in pitch amounts or something like that. Everyone who complains about the rules mostly talk about 1A and 2A schools and minimal pitching options. Yes trying to develop pitching would be helpful but as I said earlier in the thread, if you can turn any kid into an effective pitcher than that coach won't be at that school very long.
If the season goes as planned you won't have much to worry about, I really only worry about times you have to reschedule rain outs. The school I work at has canceled 2 or 3 games completely because they do not have enough pitchers to throw 5 games in 6 days. We literally didn't have pitchers "eligible" to throw.
I like the idea just need to change it a little to make it work better for small schools.
If the season goes as planned you won't have much to worry about, I really only worry about times you have to reschedule rain outs. The school I work at has canceled 2 or 3 games completely because they do not have enough pitchers to throw 5 games in 6 days. We literally didn't have pitchers "eligible" to throw.
I like the idea just need to change it a little to make it work better for small schools.
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