ADVERTISEMENT

MY TWO CENTS!

Curl/Flat Combo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2003
130
30
28
Two years ago MSHSAA was given a proposal from the MOFBCA on how to better address the inequality between classes in football. The FBCA presented a first draft as to which MSHSAA said “NO” there will be only 32 schools in Class 6. I would assume that is because they already broke Class 5 in half years ago and created Class 6 due to “INEQUALITY”. I mean, realistically how can a school of 1250 compete with a school of 2500 on a consistent basis. Honestly, that is apples and oranges. So a change was made and is still adhered to. The MOFBCA came back with numbers and research to support the plan of 32 schools in Class 6 and then equal distribution of 58-60 schools in each Class 1-5. This plan was not nor will ever be perfect for everyone, but it did address the issues of equity from class to class and lessened enrollment differential from bottom to top of classes. Provided some consistency.

MSHSAA put the proposal on the questionnaire last Spring, not the ballot, since it does not need to be voted on by member institutions. The vote was quite favorable. I would assume the no votes were the 69 schools in Classes 5 and 6 and those that are on the fringes of each class. Funny how people care more about their own story than the actual perpetuation of a sport and equity for all. The change was going to be planned for Fall 2018 to coincide with the new classification system of counting grades 9-11 and the release of districts after the first two weeks of season to insure teams “MAKE” for the season. (Both VERY GOOD ideas and solve problems) They have tabled the change after realizing that they might need to look at other sports as well. AD HOC Committee was formed, which means in MSHSAA timetables we might see change in 3-4 years. That was what it took to reach our current district and playoff format.

So we will continue to see the largest two classes in football with 32 teams in Class 6 and 37 teams in Class 5 have half as many teams to compete against for a championship, carry the lowest enrollment differential of all classes, play one less game and even incur a bye during the season. These are the same schools that have extensive rosters, more than three levels of football, two platoon on offense and defense, and have not just more football players that specialize in one sport, but more kids that specialize in just one sport in other sports as well. Now the news coming out of the AD HOC Committee and the pamphlet distributed from MSHSAA wants their MAGIC NUMBER in enrollment differential to stay under 2.0. So I am to understand that we don’t want a class to have more than twice the lowest schools’ enrollment. But MSHSAA is throwing out the outliers for the count, Class 1 and Class 6? If Classes 1-4 can be at 2.0 or close to it why can’t classes 5 and 6? Currently Class 6 is 1.43 and Class 5 is 1.31 and Class 1 is 2.24, Class 2 is 1.71, Class 3 is 1.75, and Class 4 is 1.83. So if we took Class 5 years ago and split it to give us Class 6 and add a class because 2.0 was INEQUITABLE, then why is it ok to be that or close for everybody else? Sounds like VOODOO math and POLITICS to me. The top two classes, 69 schools are favored over the remaining 256. Don’t want to see the 256 favored over the 69. How about they all operate under the same rules.

It is January! Yes, things should be evaluated for all sports. I am just commenting on football since it is the one I have followed most closely. Get it fixed! Get to work and get it done. No, let’s wait and keep it wrong. This is where people come out of the wood work and talk about get better, no excuses, and teams winning or losing. I will get the “WHAAA” and crying noises, and teary-eyed emoji’s and fans in big schools will get mad because I speak against their gravy train. Not against them, just want to see some changes that benefit MOST. I don’t care that Lamar, Webb City, Valle Catholic, and CBC win every year. They are better than everybody else and just keep proving it. Good for them! I could care less about the public vs. private argument. I could care less about how many contact days there are in the Summer. Let’s start changing and caring about things that matter and effect the most. There is no perfect system but it would just be nice to see a consistent system. You don’t wait to do things right! Get to work and figure it out. A lot of smart people just need to get it done and put POLITICS aside and make the decisions that those in leadership positions need to make. If that is, they really do want FAIR and EQUITABLE.
 
Why not base classes on an equitable differential:

Class 6 1.5
Class 5 1.5
Class 4 1.5
Etc...
Also, It would be interesting to see the differential based not only on the top vs. the bottom, but the top 10 versus the bottom 10 in each Class?
Class 4 at 1.83 is higher than all but Class 1...but I would wager that there is even a more marked diffference if you took the top ten vs. bottom ten in all classes and compared differentials.
 
Why not base classes on an equitable differential:

Class 6 1.5
Class 5 1.5
Class 4 1.5
Etc...
Also, It would be interesting to see the differential based not only on the top vs. the bottom, but the top 10 versus the bottom 10 in each Class?
Class 4 at 1.83 is higher than all but Class 1...but I would wager that there is even a more marked diffference if you took the top ten vs. bottom ten in all classes and compared differentials.


If this was applied you have Orrick being the smallest from Class 1 for example using last cycles numbers (109) and the 1.5 differential would take you all the way up to Knox County (160's) giving you a total of 15 teams battling it out in Class 1.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FootballCoach8
If this was applied you have Orrick being the smallest from Class 1 for example using last cycles numbers (109) and the 1.5 differential would take you all the way up to Knox County (160's) giving you a total of 15 teams battling it out in Class 1.


Ah, you just made me have to go and do it to prove you wrong.

On each stage I determined the differential by averaging the top 10 and dividing by the lowest team in the division. Here is what we get:

Class 6 53 teams. Differential 1.55
Class 5 61 teams Differential 1.55 (Staley, Webb, Kearney, Fort O. CJ)
Class 4 61 teams Differential 1.54
Class 3 77 teams Differential 1.53
Class 2 68 teams Differential 1.54
Class 1 Largest school Elsberry 232

Of course you can adjust slightly to boost Class 1. Shift the differential to even out class 3,2,1 to close to 55-60 teams each. But ultimately, this bolsters my opinion that they should just go back to 5 classes.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: panther72
If this was applied you have Orrick being the smallest from Class 1 for example using last cycles numbers (109) and the 1.5 differential would take you all the way up to Knox County (160's) giving you a total of 15 teams battling it out in Class 1.
That would be just fine with some people, I'm sure.
 
I agree with JN. A survey of states shows that the number of schools per class does not matter for fair competition but the range of the size of the schools does. Always leave Class 1 as the catch-all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JNreturns
Class 6 need be more teams than 32. This is what i want it look like.
Class 6 48 teams 1605-2803
Class 5 48 teams 1106-1600
Class 4 56 teams 655-1100
Class 3 56 teams 396-649
Class 2 64 teams 244- 392
Class 1 64 teams 109-244
 
  • Like
Reactions: carthagefan2006
I know this is football that is being talked about, but can someone explain to me how a class 1 football team is a class 3 basketball team? I understand it has to do with school district population numbers. But...shouldn't this too be uniformed across the board? Why is there a differential from sport to sport?
 
When football was started in the late 60s with 4 classes, most of the other sports were in 3 classes. In the 1973-74 school year, other sports went to 4 classes and all were matched up until football went to 5 classes in the early 80s. Other sports stayed unified in classes until the early 90s when each sport began to have different classification systems.
 
When football was started in the late 60s with 4 classes, most of the other sports were in 3 classes. In the 1973-74 school year, other sports went to 4 classes and all were matched up until football went to 5 classes in the early 80s. Other sports stayed unified in classes until the early 90s when each sport began to have different classification systems.
That makes since, but still how many reclassification systems have been established since then. Our school move from C2 to C3 due to district numbers it seems every couple years in basketball. But has only moved 1 time to C2 in football, always stayed C1. It's rather strange in my opinion how this works. Makes me think its more to do with politics, talent levels and what schools want to play what schools than district numbers.
 
I know this is football that is being talked about, but can someone explain to me how a class 1 football team is a class 3 basketball team? I understand it has to do with school district population numbers. But...shouldn't this too be uniformed across the board? Why is there a differential from sport to sport?
Because there are a lot of small schools that have basketball but not football. Class 1 fills up with them in hoops, pushing the smaller football schools up to class 2 or even 3 in the basketball classes.
 
Yes, not every school has football but I would bet out of the 400+ school districts in MO close to 100 percent have basketball.
 
There are close to 600 schools in MSHSAA. Some of the public school districts have multiple high schools. None of the private/charter schools have multiple HS, but a far greater percentage of those type of schools do play FB.
 
I said 400 plus, there are some districts in the bootheel that don't play girls basketball. The idea to the post is that there is a lot more schools that play bball than football.
 
I agree with JN. A survey of states shows that the number of schools per class does not matter for fair competition but the range of the size of the schools does. Always leave Class 1 as the catch-all.

Just look at the results every year...who makes it to state and wins state. Almost 85% are in the top quartile in their classification. No offense to the power houses, but it is a numbers game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Missouri Kid
Your point makes sense just by looking at the semi-finals year in and year out. Are their outliers, of course. Congratulations, but does Monroe City win state title at bottom of class two as opposed to top of class one? Do they even have a chance? Happy for them, nonetheless. Started working on next year's class breaks using grades 9-11 and each district's reported numbers from 11/30 DESE report. Had to estimate on private school enrollment but public is accurate by grade. Decided I was tired of seeing the enrollment disparity get worse (or stay the same) in an already ridiculous situation. If someone wants to finish it be my guest. Check out top of class four around 1100 and bottom of class four......approximately 521 to 523. In three classes, that is over 500 students. Way to ACT for fair and equitable MSHSAA! That was sarcasm in case you could not tell. Then look at classes 5 and 6. Those of you that need to hide some kids get to doing what you have been doing.


School Enrollment
SLUH- 2100
Rockhurst- 2052
Jeff City 1937
CBC- 1926
Blue Springs 1899
Marquette 1714
Joplin 1704
Hazlewood West 1673
Lindbergh 1571
Troy Buchanan 1559
Lee Summit West 1544
Blue Springs South 1526
Desmet- 1515
Park Hill 1486
Columbia Rock Bridge 1483
Ray-Pec 1478
Hazlewood Central 1469
Francis Howell Central 1449
Ft Zumwalt West 1436
Lee Summit North 1408
Lafayette 1382
Francis Howell 1376
Eureka 1370
Liberty North 1358
Northwest STL 1356
Nixa 1348
Liberty 1343
Parkway South 1343
Ritenour 1338
Lee Summit 1331
Pattionville 1328
Springfield Kickapoo 1323
Melville 1314
Ozark 1308
Francis Howell North 1307
Fox 1306
Wentzville Holt 1306
Seckman 1305
St. Joe Central 1291
Columbia Hickman 1286
Kirkwood 1286
Waynesville 1262
Truman 1260
Park Hill South 1248
Timberland 1245
McClurer North 1241
Springfield Central 1229
Vianney- 1224
Raytown 1210
Poplar Bluff 1205
Jackson 1170
Staley 1156
Ft Zumwalt North 1152
William Chrisman 1144
Ruskin 1142
Oak Park 1135
Smith Cotton 1135
North KC 1128
Chaminaide- 1128
Oakville 1116
Carthage 1111
Fort Osage 1105
Branson 1103
Lebanon 1080
Columbia Battle 1078
Republic 1072
Belton 1065
Springfield Glendale 1050
Springfield Parkview 1047
Parkway West 1043
Ft Zumwalt South 1042
Winnentonka 1030
Camdenton 1029
Willard 1027
Webster Groves 1024
Neosho 986
Washington 984
Ladue 975
Rockwood Summit 970
Wentzville Liberty 969
Hazlewood East 968
Rolla 964
Grandview 961
Grain Valley 959
Raytown South 955
Riverview Gardens 923
McDonald County 915
Webb City 913
Parkway Central 911
Ft Zumwalt East 910
Kearney 905
Farmington 893
Platte County 884
Cape Central 881
Parkway North 854
Hillsboro 826
Gateway 825
KC East 820
McClurer 819
West Plains 802
Springfield Hillcrest 800
Van Horn 769
Desoto 761
Carl Junction 760
Westminister- 759
St Dominic- 750
Hannibal 748
Normady 746
Warrenton 736
Sikeston 726
Marshfield 713
Warrensburg 703
Union 699
St Marys- 693
Jeff City Helias- 687
Windsor Imperial 680
North County- 675
St Charles 660
Bolivar 657
MICDS- 657
Clayton 656
Harrisonville 647
Marshall 633
St. Joe Lafayette 631
Smithville 631
Excelsior Springs 631
Festus 623
Afton 604
Jennings 604
Borgia- 588
St. Joe Benton 586
Monett 585
University City 581
Sullivan 572
Priory- 570
Logan Rogersville 567
Nevada 563
Savannah 562
Kirksville 560
Perryville- 558
St. Clair 551
Mexico 535
KC Southeast 534
Center 531
Potosio 531
KC Northeast 530
Lincoln Prep 525
Moberly 523
Luthern South- 513
Fulton 511
St Charles West 502
Reed Springs 499
Pleasant Hill 488
Aurora 482
Miller Career 480
Odessa 470
Salem 461
Oak Grove 458
Dexter 458
Clinton 446
St Genevieve 442
Osage 435
Soldan 433
Eldon 424
Beomont 421
St Pius KC 417
Vashon 416
Cameron 414
Chillicothe 414
Boonville 406
Kennett 404
Fredricktown 402
KC Central 398
South Berkely 374
Roosevelt 366
Seneca 360
Southern Boone 358
Mt Vernon 357
Maryville 352
Richmond 350
Centralia 327
Blair Oaks 319
Lamar 308
 
When counting positions take into consideration that last cycle there were 37 team in class 5. Per MSHSAA pamphlet. I counted the lower classes myself. There were also only 62 in class 1, 59 in class 2, 63 in class 3, and 64 in class 4. That is why we are waiting to see teams make late in the Fall. Which is a great idea. So class 4 and 5 number will be between 1050 and 1100 when spots get filled in by my estimation. Just wanted to give basis before I was proved wrong.
 
When counting positions take into consideration that last cycle there were 37 team in class 5. Per MSHSAA pamphlet. I counted the lower classes myself. There were also only 62 in class 1, 59 in class 2, 63 in class 3, and 64 in class 4. That is why we are waiting to see teams make late in the Fall. Which is a great idea. So class 4 and 5 number will be between 1050 and 1100 when spots get filled in by my estimation. Just wanted to give basis before I was proved wrong.

There were 44 teams in Class 5.
32 in Class 6
64 in Class 4
63 in Class 3
60 in Class 2
62 in Class 1
 
You are correct. There were 44 because there were 8 eight spots pushed up into class 5, the catch all, since class 1, class 2, class 3 were not full last cycle. When they redistrict those holes won't exist any longer leaving 37 in class 5 for positional sake in figuring classes. So the top of class 4 gets bigger schools in it. Number will move up from bottom as well, just numbers at bottom of class four are much smaller in differential.
 
My bad math. Should have read your entire post. So 6 spots. So there will be 38. What happens if 6 teams play 8 man? Class 5 has 32 teams.
 
Class 6 need be more teams than 32. This is what i want it look like.
Class 6 48 teams 1605-2803
Class 5 48 teams 1106-1600
Class 4 56 teams 655-1100
Class 3 56 teams 396-649
Class 2 64 teams 244- 392
Class 1 64 teams 109-244

The real culprit is Class 5 as a catch all with the 1.3 differential...it screws Class 4. But yes, increase Class 6 to at least 38 teams. Increase Class 5 to a mininum of 48 teams, and the ridiculous differential in Class 4 shrinks.
 
Great points. Good input. MSHSAA does not care. News out of AD Hocs.......no to competitiveness quotient, ratio and number in classes for all sports fall into guidelines they already have set or created, maybe one sport does not, public vs. private doesn't matter, and nothing will change. What does that mean when you know there is a problem, you form a committee to solve a problem, you have the power to change the problem, the football coaches themself proposed a solution, and you change nothing? What is it?
 
Great points. Good input. MSHSAA does not care. News out of AD Hocs.......no to competitiveness quotient, ratio and number in classes for all sports fall into guidelines they already have set or created, maybe one sport does not, public vs. private doesn't matter, and nothing will change. What does that mean when you know there is a problem, you form a committee to solve a problem, you have the power to change the problem, the football coaches themself proposed a solution, and you change nothing? What is it?
There is little consensus on what the problems are, whether they need fixed, and how. Just because you're sure of it doesn't mean everyone else is.
 
There is little consensus on what the problems are, whether they need fixed, and how. Just because you're sure of it doesn't mean everyone else is.

The Problems? It is fairly obvious that watches results, games, and sees the levels of competition. Unless you have a vested interest in making more opportunity for the bigger schools...it is patently obvious that the competition levels could be better.

Class 6 is 1.43 (Too low - expand.)
Class 5 is 1.31 (Way Too low - expand.)
Class 4 is 1.83 (Shrink to 1.6 to 1.7)
Class 3 is 1.75 (too high - lower slightly)
Class 2 is 1.71 (too high - lower slightly)
Class 1 is 2.24 (way too high - lower)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Treadmill
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT