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[Neutron Monster]

Grey area word salad.

If they are not found guilty of the charges against them, they are innocent, or exonerated of wrong doing. Call it what you like.

Innocent and exonerated mean the same thing. Not guilty is a chasm away from those two concepts.

This is not gray area word salad. That chasm is exactly where the problem lies. Police can and do get away with morally unlawful killings because the standard for reasonable doubt applied in police shooting criminal cases is extremely high.

 

[Neutron Monster]

They are allowed to shoot a suspected felon when fleeing if they have reason to believe the person is a danger to the community.

Just because someone is running away and unarmed doesn't mean an officer doesn't have legal justification for shooting them.

We're again in a red herring rabbit hole. Lots of shootings don't remotely qualify for this sort of exception. And, as you note, they still have to present an imminent, material danger to the cops and the community.

 

[Neutron Monster]

There's also a big item you're all ignoring with these defenses...legal is not the same thing as right. There are fair questions about if the standards of engagement should be changed.

 

[coachperk]

I've met the angry bitter civil servant, hardened by the war they fight every day a night. Some of them are a fireman, Some of them cowboys in cruisers are crazy, That's no secret. It takes a special kind of man to keep it together. I choose to remember those that don't lose it, over the Cowboys that should have never have worn a badge in the first place.

 

[Duck_walk]

I've met the angry bitter civil servant, hardened by the war they fight every day a night. Some of them are a fireman, Some of them cowboys in cruisers are crazy, That's no secret. It takes a special kind of man to keep it together. I choose to remember those that don't lose it, over the Cowboys that should have never have worn a badge in the first place.

So you admit there are some of those. Good first step. We are making progress.

 

[coachperk]

So you admit there are some of those. Good first step. We are making progress.

Do we really need to hasten the death of the NFL with meaningless protests? Is there not enough crime in your life to read about on the daily news. Are you not entertained! We know there are murderers out there. Pre-meditated ones and those that do it for fun. The left has severely wounded the game ever since Mike Webster's brain was examined by a pathologist. Yo'all is crazy.

 

[eaglesalumni]

There's also a big item you're all ignoring with these defenses...legal is not the same thing as right. There are fair questions about if the standards of engagement should be changed.

I'm not ignoring the fact that legal is not the same as right. I have said many times that there are a lot of things that are legal, that are not right. By that same standard, there are things that are illegal that are not wrong. I agree with you 100% on this.

However, based on the "current law", these officer's were found innocent of wrongdoing. That brings us to your thought on standards of engagement.

At what point do you feel a LEO should use lethal force?

 

[Neutron Monster]

I'm not ignoring the fact that legal is not the same as right. I have said many times that there are a lot of things that are legal, that are not right. By that same standard, there are things that are illegal that are not wrong. I agree with you 100% on this.

However, based on the "current law", these officer's were found innocent of wrongdoing. That brings us to your thought on standards of engagement.

At what point do you feel a LEO should use lethal force?

I don't feel qualified to answer that question. I'm not saying that as a copout. I mean it sincerely. But I think the line should be set by criminal justice experts, not by cops. Taking a life is an extremely serious action, and criminals do deserve weighting in the evaluation.

I just feel that when you watch some of the things that happen, and when you see the systemic differences in policing that occurred in North St. Louis County and West St. Louis County while I've lived there, something should change. Yes, black Americans commit more crime on average, but they are also treated more harshly on average.

I think it's part of a broader societal failure of the criminal justice system to make it work better for the average person. The emotional and political aspects of the issues tend to lead to too much permissiveness on behavior of law enforcement, and an overfocus of the criminal justice system on punishment instead of on rehabilitation that reduces recidivism.

 

[Duck_walk]

Do we really need to hasten the death of the NFL with meaningless protests? Is there not enough crime in your life to read about on the daily news. Are you not entertained! We know there are murderers out there. Pre-meditated ones and those that do it for fun. The left has severely wounded the game ever since Mike Webster's brain was examined by a pathologist. Yo'all is crazy.

That was Websters family. Not lefties.
The game has changed forever. I watched a few of my games from 15 years ago this week. The level of hitting then compared to now is startling.

 

[coachperk]

That was Websters family. Not lefties.
The game has changed forever. I watched a few of my games from 15 years ago this week. The level of hitting then compared to now is startling.

Sure. The protest?

 

[SadButTrue]

Their three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. Mark Twain.
You have a weak argument when A) especially when you can arrange the numbers. B) everything is a conspiracy, extraterrestrials are real, ghosts walk the earth, big foot lives, ancient aliens built the pyramids, time travelers visit us every day, Jesus is a metaphor for doing good stuff, and the government is reading your mind.

May be good at stats, but you suck at English. "There are"

 

[millerbleach]

Lol. “Stop making me ashamed of my skin color.”

You don't think I am ashamed of the Nazis claiming white superiority? Protesting them does NOT mean I don't want the statues to remain......I do.

 

[HomeyR]

Post like these are a perfect example of why we can't have meaningful discussions on these kinds of topics. There was nothing in wcfan's post that was inaccurate, or should lead anyone to think he is a member of the KKK.

You just didn't like the message so you respond with an inaccurate, unfounded insult.

His implications were obvious to me and I'm reasonably sure others as well. There was absolutely nothing meaningful in the statement that he made as far as I'm concerned. I'll just leave it at that...

 

[eaglesalumni]

Everything he said was accurate, and pertained to the topic at hand.

Yours, however, were not.

 

[HomeyR]

Everything he said was accurate, and pertained to the topic at hand.

Yours, however, were not.

Accurate according to who... you ? Keep it to yourself.

 

[3Rfan]

Innocent and exonerated mean the same thing. Not guilty is a chasm away from those two concepts.

This is not gray area word salad. That chasm is exactly where the problem lies. Police can and do get away with morally unlawful killings because the standard for reasonable doubt applied in police shooting criminal cases is extremely high.

I think in the last case in St.Louis the prosecutor wildly over charged the cop. I saw the available video several times and I saw NOTHING to indicate 1st degree murder nor did the judge. That's a pretty tough one prove in court when a cop shoots a guy after he rammed the cop car and led them on a chase, which ALWAYS puts the police AND the public in danger. I think they could have gotten a conviction on a lesser charge. A premeditated murder charge in that case was just plain dumb!

 

[coachperk]

May be good at stats, but you suck at English. "There are"

This is true but Duck is silent when asked a direct question

 

[Duck_walk]

Sure. The protest?

There was a protest over Mike Webster's CTE?

 

[coachperk]

There was a protest over Mike Webster's CTE?

Do NFL player's need to protest, if they do why? Be specific. Still waiting.

 

[Duck_walk]

Do NFL player's need to protest, if they do why? Be specific. Still waiting.

Honestly I am trying to figure what the military has to do with football or baseball or any other sport, why we have tied them together and why the national anthem needs to be played any way.

I just want to watch football games and not hear about war, or politics or hurricanes or transgender people or sexual preferences or religion or anything else you rage lovers want to get pissed off about. Just show me the games and spare me salary talk or who's uncles brother mailman has cancer or any other sad story I dont tune in for. I dont even want to hear what charities the players donated to or organized. Just show the darm football game. To quote Gerry Bertier's mom "I dont want to get to know him!"

 

[coachperk]

Honestly I am trying to figure what the military has to do with football or baseball or any other sport, why we have tied them together and why the national anthem needs to be played any way.
I just want to watch football games and not hear about war, or politics or hurricanes or transgender people or sexual preferences or religion or anything else you rage lovers want to get pissed off about. Just show me the games and spare me salary talk or who's uncles brother mailman has cancer or any other sad story I dont tune in for. I dont even want to hear what charities the players donated to or organized. Just show the darm football game. To quote Gerry Bertier's mom "I dont want to get to know him!"

I agree, but if Gerry Bertier's mom had only not made a fake movie.

 

[coachperk]

I like the idea of eliminating honoring our country because it violates those who want to live in this country, enjoy it's benefits but never lift a finger to work for it, or honor it. That's what freedom is all about, It's about me.

 

[Duck_walk]

I guess Im not a good American because I dont care if someone kneels, stands or howls at the moon. I dont want to see what any of them do. I dont care about their opinion. I tune in to escape serious topics.

 

[coachperk]

I guess Im not a good American because I dont care if someone kneels, stands or howls at the moon. I dont want to see what any of them do. I dont care about their opinion. I tune in to escape serious topics.

Can't argue with an honest opinion and see it's value in my own life.

 

[anon_utvqikut1knht]

Can u honestly watch Trump's speech and say the he didnt emphasize the "SOB?"
"GET THAT SOB OFF THE FIELD" (turn and show profile for "look at me" effect). Stop it.

Why are St. Louisans interested in the NFL??????????

 

[anon_utvqikut1knht]

So you admit there are some of those. Good first step. We are making progress.

Rush (a man whom I have met but don't always agree with) is right on this. You couldn't fit all the "white supremacists in the Nation in a phone booth".

 

[anon_utvqikut1knht]

Honestly I am trying to figure what the military has to do with football or baseball or any other sport, why we have tied them together and why the national anthem needs to be played any way.

I just want to watch football games and not hear about war, or politics or hurricanes or transgender people or sexual preferences or religion or anything else you rage lovers want to get pissed off about. Just show me the games and spare me salary talk or who's uncles brother mailman has cancer or any other sad story I dont tune in for. I dont even want to hear what charities the players donated to or organized. Just show the darm football game. To quote Gerry Bertier's mom "I dont want to get to know him!"

Then get rid of your crazy Bernie logo and we can have a dialogue.

 

[Duck_walk]

Rush (a man whom I have met but don't always agree with) is right on this. You couldn't fit all the "white supremacists in the Nation in a phone booth".

Must be one hell of a phone booth.

 

[HomeyR]

Why are St. Louisans interested in the NFL??????????

LOL...

 

[Neutron Monster]

I think in the last case in St.Louis the prosecutor wildly over charged the cop. I saw the available video several times and I saw NOTHING to indicate 1st degree murder nor did the judge. That's a pretty tough one prove in court when a cop shoots a guy after he rammed the cop car and led them on a chase, which ALWAYS puts the police AND the public in danger. I think they could have gotten a conviction on a lesser charge. A premeditated murder charge in that case was just plain dumb!

I can see the argument for him being overcharged, yes.