Cards no longer best organization in NL Central

[Nwalls]

As Cards fans we better realize if the Cards don't change their ways in how
they build a team and manage the team we will be looking up to the Cubs for
along time. Years past Cubs where no threat or anybody else in division for the
Cards to really try to build a powerful team. Now everything has changed so we
will see if the front office wants a winner or getting 3 million fan is what matters only.

 

[justaconcernedcitizen]

So being able to pick top 5 pick players for several years in a row, and having a large media market which means more money available to you to purchase higher profile players automatically means you are a better organization? Being 86-76 with youthful inexperience, poor defense, and numerous injuries to club veterans while being in a division with the best team in all of baseball is still pretty solid. They Cards were 9-10 against the Cubs this year. Do they need work? Yes. But it hurt not having Lance Lynn who has won 60 games the last four years, Adam Wainwright wasn't himself until late July or later. Wacha was terrible after going 17-7 the year before. Garcia couldn't pitch after June. Leake is no Lackey, but bad defense early on hurt him. They right moves have been made and more will be made this offseason to sure up the bullpen, defense, and consistency of the lineup.

 

[oldroundballer]

I don't think the Cards are that far away. We'll see how long the Cubs can sustain this success. They certainly have the resources. They could very well become the Yankees of the NL. The Cards will never be able to spend with them. They'll always have to get production out of cheaper guys. The wildcard makes it easier to advance. Then it just becomes getting hot. All is not lost and the Cardinal way of team building can still win. A few tweaks this winter and they'll be ready to challenge again next year.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

But it hurt not having Lance Lynn who has won 60 games the last four years, Adam Wainwright wasn't himself until late July or later. Wacha was terrible after going 17-7 the year before. Garcia couldn't pitch after June. Leake is no Lackey, but bad defense early on hurt him. They right moves have been made and more will be made this offseason to sure up the bullpen, defense, and consistency of the lineup.

Dude...Lynn might be the only one of those guys to sustain anything close to what he was. Waino is what he is at this point. He's progressing into his age 36 year. He's probably a middle of the rotation starter at best from here on out. Leake is also what he is, a pitch to contact guy with shaky defense behind him. He's back of the order, at best middle. Wacha is hurt, and has been hurt. And has shown zero sign of getting better. To forecast much from him might be a leap. The pitching still has depth. And CMart and Reyes should be a solid 1-2 punch, but make no mistake...there will be at least one starter that will be coming off of a major injury. CMart, Reyes, Waino, Lynn, Leake should be fine. Not great, but good. Pen is awful at the moment without Duke. Lots and lots of question marks. And then there's the defense/lineup. Can Wong hit enough to play 2B? Can Diaz replicate his offense? Can Gyorko produce enough to play 3B? Can Peralta handle the super sub role? What role does Adams (and potentially Moss, if he gets a QO) have if the Birds can find an adequate CF'er. Speaking of the OF...Can Grichuk play everyday and not K over 200 times? What will the Birds have to give up to get that CF? Hint, it's probably going to involve some of that pitching we talked about...Not sure what moves you're talking about, but they've made none since the end of the season. And I'm not really sure how different the lineup/roster will look come April.

 

[justaconcernedcitizen]

Dude...Lynn might be the only one of those guys to sustain anything close to what he was. Waino is what he is at this point. He's progressing into his age 36 year. He's probably a middle of the rotation starter at best from here on out. Leake is also what he is, a pitch to contact guy with shaky defense behind him. He's back of the order, at best middle. Wacha is hurt, and has been hurt. And has shown zero sign of getting better. To forecast much from him might be a leap. The pitching still has depth. And CMart and Reyes should be a solid 1-2 punch, but make no mistake...there will be at least one starter that will be coming off of a major injury. CMart, Reyes, Waino, Lynn, Leake should be fine. Not great, but good. Pen is awful at the moment without Duke. Lots and lots of question marks. And then there's the defense/lineup. Can Wong hit enough to play 2B? Can Diaz replicate his offense? Can Gyorko produce enough to play 3B? Can Peralta handle the super sub role? What role does Adams (and potentially Moss, if he gets a QO) have if the Birds can find an adequate CF'er. Speaking of the OF...Can Grichuk play everyday and not K over 200 times? What will the Birds have to give up to get that CF? Hint, it's probably going to involve some of that pitching we talked about...Not sure what moves you're talking about, but they've made none since the end of the season. And I'm not really sure how different the lineup/roster will look come April.

First and foremost I was not justifying the expectation of thinking players mentioned in your post and mine are going to be okay in the future. I was stating that freaking out on the part of a season that had some questionable moments in players and managing was not has bad as they seem. Moves must be made. Never did I say Waino was going to be an ace again, but He displayed glimpses of himself at the end. Missing the average 15 wins a season from Lynn cannot be underplayed. As for Wacha, the expectation was for him to be a solid two all year. That was not met and for the Cards to be at 86 wins without the 15 win production of two pitchers with a lot talent in years past, shows that there are glimpses of hope in the clubhouse. Grichuk has to become a better 2 strike hitter and change his approach early in counts. Wong has to realize that he is an average hitter with some pop, not the other way around. Diaz has to stay healthy and sure up the defense, which did improve at the end. Reyes has to show that he can be a guy that can throw 150-175 innings and still be productive late. These are just to name a few things that must be address in the offseason, and some cannot be address accept through patience. Time will tell. There still are a lot more questions than answers, but the future is not has bleak as one would think. Are we the most talented, no, but we are not as bad as Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, or Milwaukee.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

First and foremost I was not justifying the expectation of thinking players mentioned in your post and mine are going to be okay in the future. I was stating that freaking out on the part of a season that had some questionable moments in players and managing was not has bad as they seem. Moves must be made. Never did I say Waino was going to be an ace again, but He displayed glimpses of himself at the end. Missing the average 15 wins a season from Lynn cannot be underplayed. As for Wacha, the expectation was for him to be a solid two all year. That was not met and for the Cards to be at 86 wins without the 15 win production of two pitchers with a lot talent in years past, shows that there are glimpses of hope in the clubhouse. Grichuk has to become a better 2 strike hitter and change his approach early in counts. Wong has to realize that he is an average hitter with some pop, not the other way around. Diaz has to stay healthy and sure up the defense, which did improve at the end. Reyes has to show that he can be a guy that can throw 150-175 innings and still be productive late. These are just to name a few things that must be address in the offseason, and some cannot be address accept through patience. Time will tell. There still are a lot more questions than answers, but the future is not has bleak as one would think. Are we the most talented, no, but we are not as bad as Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, or Milwaukee.

I don't think anyone has said the sky is falling. But there are a ton more questions than answers.

 

[vbsideout]

I will stand by the Birds from top to bottom and that includes MM. Finished +10 this year so I don't think it's time to panic. I look forward to the off season.

 

[3Rfan]

Dude...Lynn might be the only one of those guys to sustain anything close to what he was. Waino is what he is at this point. He's progressing into his age 36 year. He's probably a middle of the rotation starter at best from here on out. Leake is also what he is, a pitch to contact guy with shaky defense behind him. He's back of the order, at best middle. Wacha is hurt, and has been hurt. And has shown zero sign of getting better. To forecast much from him might be a leap. The pitching still has depth. And CMart and Reyes should be a solid 1-2 punch, but make no mistake...there will be at least one starter that will be coming off of a major injury. CMart, Reyes, Waino, Lynn, Leake should be fine. Not great, but good. Pen is awful at the moment without Duke. Lots and lots of question marks. And then there's the defense/lineup. Can Wong hit enough to play 2B? Can Diaz replicate his offense? Can Gyorko produce enough to play 3B? Can Peralta handle the super sub role? What role does Adams (and potentially Moss, if he gets a QO) have if the Birds can find an adequate CF'er. Speaking of the OF...Can Grichuk play everyday and not K over 200 times? What will the Birds have to give up to get that CF? Hint, it's probably going to involve some of that pitching we talked about...Not sure what moves you're talking about, but they've made none since the end of the season. And I'm not really sure how different the lineup/roster will look come April.

But strikeouts don't matter if you hit 30 HR's. If Grichuk can play a full season he will hit at least 30.

 

[Kenny56]

How many times have we seen teams win it to be called the next great dynasty team, only to not become that? A LOT. Injuries will happen, players will not match production, so on and so on. I am sure the Cubbies will win the Central next year. They have a hell of a roster.

No longer the lovable losers. They have now found the pit of mediocrity with their lone WS championship. They just lost that one "niche" that made them a social event. We'll see how this plays out.

 

[Duck_walk]

The 85-86 Mets were supposed to dominate baseball for a decade. The Birds on the bat were back in the WS in 87. An injury here, a cocaine habit there, and things go down the tubes quickly.

 

[vbsideout]

The 85-86 Mets were supposed to dominate baseball for a decade. The Birds on the bat were back in the WS in 87. An injury here, a cocaine habit there, and things go down the tubes quickly.

Let the off season begin.

 

[Nwalls]

I would agree but this stupid saying the CARDINAL WAY has gotten old. Maddon
is a much better manager than Matheny don't like Maddon but it is what it is.
Epstein best GM in baseball and Chicago has a ton of money, I know things can happen
but we are not going to win with some of our current players.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

But strikeouts don't matter if you hit 30 HR's. If Grichuk can play a full season he will hit at least 30.

The second half Grichuk, yes. The first half, no. And I don't think anyone on here has said 200Ks "don't matter" if you hit 30HRs. But it won't change you trying to say they have. Balance man, balance. To some extent. 1st half Grichuk is unacceptable, 2nd half acceptable.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

I would agree but this stupid saying the CARDINAL WAY has gotten old. Maddon
is a much better manager than Matheny don't like Maddon but it is what it is.
Epstein best GM in baseball and Chicago has a ton of money, I know things can happen
but we are not going to win with some of our current players.

Who is saying the Cardinal Way has gotten old? Btw, what is the Cardinal Way?

 

[Eagles_Ball]

The 85-86 Mets were supposed to dominate baseball for a decade. The Birds on the bat were back in the WS in 87. An injury here, a cocaine habit there, and things go down the tubes quickly.

After reading the book, pretty sure there was more than "a cocaine habit there". More like here, there, over yonder, and everywhere in between.

 

[3Rfan]

The second half Grichuk, yes. The first half, no. And I don't think anyone on here has said 200Ks "don't matter" if you hit 30HRs. But it won't change you trying to say they have. Balance man, balance. To some extent. 1st half Grichuk is unacceptable, 2nd half acceptable.

Saber stats people say a strikeout is just another out, so why does it matter if he strikes out rather than ground out or hit a fly ball that doesn't leave the park? Seems to me you guys only think a lot of strikeouts are ok for a power hitter, but only if it's NOT a Cardinal.

 

[vbsideout]

Who is saying the Cardinal Way has gotten old? Btw, what is the Cardinal Way?

Cardinal way = winning baseball

 

[Neutron Monster]

Saber stats people say a strikeout is just another out, so why does it matter if he strikes out rather than ground out or hit a fly ball that doesn't leave the park? Seems to me you guys only think a lot of strikeouts are ok for a power hitter, but only if it's NOT a Cardinal.

It's not quite that, it's just that the difference between a K and a groundout or flyout is small compared to the difference between an out and a hit or walk

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Saber stats people say a strikeout is just another out, so why does it matter if he strikes out rather than ground out or hit a fly ball that doesn't leave the park? Seems to me you guys only think a lot of strikeouts are ok for a power hitter, but only if it's NOT a Cardinal.

Look at his season split...tell me where he was a better hitter. And then tell me about Ks. The point I was trying to make (I should know better with you by now) is he was horrid in the first half. And hit the crap out of the ball (when he made contact) in the 2nd half. He was a much better hitter after the ASB...and Kd about 30 more times in the same amount of PAs.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Cardinal way = winning baseball

Soooooo...Does that mean winning baseball has gotten old? I really gotta know who thinks that.

 

[wccards21]

Look at his season split...tell me where he was a better hitter. And then tell me about Ks. The point I was trying to make (I should know better with you by now) is he was horrid in the first half. And hit the crap out of the ball (when he made contact) in the 2nd half. He was a much better hitter after the ASB...and Kd about 30 more times in the same amount of PAs.

Splits are the work of you stupid saber people

 

[vbsideout]

Soooooo...Does that mean winning baseball has gotten old? I really gotta know who thinks that.

Your question is a bit confusing,

 

[Duck_walk]

"The Cardinal Way" is pretty much the Cardinal baseball scriptures written by George Kissel on how STL players throughout the system are supposed to play the game from fundamentals to teamwork to behavior on and off the field.

It's not some mythical catch phrase. It's an actual thing.

In his locker this spring, every minor-league player found an 86-page handbook that outlines The Cardinal Way, from infield positioning to off-field responsibilities and team policies, from the virtues of a Cardinals catcher to where Perez setup to receive a 3-2 pitch. Coaches and managers received the unabridged version, at 117 pages. The guides hold proprietary information and are not for the public. These "organizational manuals" are the result of several years of work to collect the lessons from former coaches George Kissell, Dave Ricketts, and others, blend them with the modern views of La Russa, Matheny, Dave Duncan and Dave McKay, and create a standardized approach to developing Cardinal players.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Your question is a bit confusing,

Nwalls said the Cardinal Way has gotten old. Just connecting the dots.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

"The Cardinal Way" is pretty much the Cardinal baseball scriptures written by George Kissel on how STL players throughout the system are supposed to play the game from fundamentals to teamwork to behavior on and off the field.

It's not some mythical catch phrase. It's an actual thing.

In his locker this spring, every minor-league player found an 86-page handbook that outlines The Cardinal Way, from infield positioning to off-field responsibilities and team policies, from the virtues of a Cardinals catcher to where Perez setup to receive a 3-2 pitch. Coaches and managers received the unabridged version, at 117 pages. The guides hold proprietary information and are not for the public. These "organizational manuals" are the result of several years of work to collect the lessons from former coaches George Kissell, Dave Ricketts, and others, blend them with the modern views of La Russa, Matheny, Dave Duncan and Dave McKay, and create a standardized approach to developing Cardinal players.

I knew that. I just wanted to see what Nwalls meant. Don't think being a professional ever gets old.

 

[Duck_walk]

I knew that. I just wanted to see what Nwalls meant. Don't think being a professional ever gets old.

I figured you did. hopefully I have educated Nwalls

 

[Eagles_Ball]

I figured you did. hopefully I have educated Nwalls

He's Metro, right???