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Allow me to ask a honest, bipartisan question

A

ag-man

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I have a feeling many on here are involved in education. I also have a feeling, from reading numerous post, that many on here sympathies lie with liberal causes. So, my question.

As I understand it, for the most part, correct me if I am wrong, but to educate our fine youth a person has to have a masters degree in education....at some point. Either starting out, or through continued education.

In my neck of the woods, after 6 or 7 years of college, a person can get a job at the local high school teaching our kids at a starting salary of around $26,000 to $28,000 dollars, and with years of service, work up from there.

So my question. SEIU wants McDonalds workers to make $15 per hour. Based on a 40 hour week, these potential high school dropouts would be making $30,000 per year flipping burgers............ Does this sound right ?

Maybe all our intelligent would be teachers should just say screw it and apply at the local burger shop.
 
You can put up with 25 or 30 little cookie crunchers all day or put up with hundreds fast food customers and a couple of managers for whom you can't possibly get the food out fast enough to suit them. I wouldn't want to work at a fast food counter, or in the back, for $20 an hour.
 
3R, I have done neither,

So are you saying teaching 30 "cookie crunchers" is easier, and should be compensated less, than flipping burgers at McDonalds ?
 
Comparison isn't totally accurate in that teaching isn't a true 2080 hour/year job and teachers have benefits that cost a fair amount per hour of pay. And the avg teacher with a masters makes materially more than 28k even to start in St. Louis and other metro areas where these protests are really taking place.

But, yeah. There's certainly a difference.

One could also point out that's an argument to pay teachers more just as much as it is an argument for justifying low wages for fast food workers.

I can also think of jobs that pay worse than teaching in many cases - social work and journalism come to mind.
 
I dont think he said that, just that he doesn't find working in a fast food restaurant to be desirable work.

"Should be" is a difficult question to answer about compensation. Pay is not that good a proxy for societal value or for the effort involved in earning the pay. Plenty of people do back breaking, valuable work for very little pay.
 
Let me point out, no doubt, I believe teachers are underpaid !!!!

In a perfect world, in my opinion, teachers should make far more than McDonalds workers. If you want to succeed , educate yourself and excel !!
 
That is my point, NM

Working a low level job should not be fun or profitable, if it was, what would be the incentive to better oneself?

If working at McDonalds was fun and made you rich, the world wouldn't turn, everyone would be working at McDonalds !!
 
When I got my bachelor degree, I had 10 year to earn a master degree. Eventually, that law was repealed as we were losing too many teachers. I was then given a lifetime teaching certificate. I am still required to get a certain number of Professional Development hours each year that I get thru teacher in-service days, seminars, and on campus training such as tech/computer training.

Salaries vary greatly depending on where you work. Rural schools, particularly in southern Missouri, have starting salaries in the $25-28K range. Starting teachers in big school districts and districts in or close to metro areas start out in the $35-38K typically. Most districts give about a $500 raise per year. Continuing education with master degree and beyond account for the largest raises. A master degree will get about a $5K raise. Coaching/class sponsor and other afte school duty is another way to earn more.

Missouri does have one of the best retirement programs, not only for teachers but any line of work. All teachers contribute a percentage of each pay check (14.5% currently for me) and the school district matches the amount. A retiring teacher with 30 years of service will get a monthly pension check comparable to their final monthly salary, with cost of living increases.

Now if we can keep the MO legislators out of our business with our pension. Legislators are continually trying to pass laws to allow "diversifying the penion fund portfolio" with investments of our funds. The great majority of teachers want our pension left allow. It is in good shape and safe in our account drawing simple interest.
 
Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
Comparison isn't totally accurate in that teaching isn't a true 2080 hour/year job and teachers have benefits that cost a fair amount per hour of pay. And the avg teacher with a masters makes materially more than 28k even to start in St. Louis and other metro areas where these protests are really taking place.

But, yeah. There's certainly a difference.

One could also point out that's an argument to pay teachers more just as much as it is an argument for justifying low wages for fast food workers.

I can also think of jobs that pay worse than teaching in many cases - social work and journalism come to mind.
Click to expand...
1. I bet most motivated teachers work more hours per year than most people sitting behind a desk. My wife really gets about 1 month off a year before she starts working in her classroom and getting ahead with planning. She gets there at about 7:15 and gets home at about 5pm every night M-F.

Then like last night, she worked on grading science projects until about 8:30-9. Those hours don't include working other extra curricular activities.

2. And you're right it isn't accurately comparing two jobs. One requires years of schooling. The other requires nothing other than a brain of a 5th grader to do.
 
Originally posted by Bogey Man:

When I got my bachelor degree, I had 10 year to earn a master degree. Eventually, that law was repealed as we were losing too many teachers. I was then given a lifetime teaching certificate. I am still required to get a certain number of Professional Development hours each year that I get thru teacher in-service days, seminars, and on campus training such as tech/computer training.

Salaries vary greatly depending on where you work. Rural schools, particularly in southern Missouri, have starting salaries in the $25-28K range. Starting teachers in big school districts and districts in or close to metro areas start out in the $35-38K typically. Most districts give about a $500 raise per year. Continuing education with master degree and beyond account for the largest raises. A master degree will get about a $5K raise. Coaching/class sponsor and other afte school duty is another way to earn more.

Missouri does have one of the best retirement programs, not only for teachers but any line of work. All teachers contribute a percentage of each pay check (14.5% currently for me) and the school district matches the amount. A retiring teacher with 30 years of service will get a monthly pension check comparable to their final monthly salary, with cost of living increases.

Now if we can keep the MO legislators out of our business with our pension. Legislators are continually trying to pass laws to allow "diversifying the penion fund portfolio" with investments of our funds. The great majority of teachers want our pension left allow. It is in good shape and safe in our account drawing simple interest.
Click to expand...
The retirement plan is a great incentive to get into teaching. That is the great offset of not making a ton of money. My wife could retire at the age of 53. A full 17 years before I likely get sniff retiring.
 
Originally posted by Drop.Tine:
Originally posted by Bogey Man:

When I got my bachelor degree, I had 10 year to earn a master degree. Eventually, that law was repealed as we were losing too many teachers. I was then given a lifetime teaching certificate. I am still required to get a certain number of Professional Development hours each year that I get thru teacher in-service days, seminars, and on campus training such as tech/computer training.

Salaries vary greatly depending on where you work. Rural schools, particularly in southern Missouri, have starting salaries in the $25-28K range. Starting teachers in big school districts and districts in or close to metro areas start out in the $35-38K typically. Most districts give about a $500 raise per year. Continuing education with master degree and beyond account for the largest raises. A master degree will get about a $5K raise. Coaching/class sponsor and other afte school duty is another way to earn more.

Missouri does have one of the best retirement programs, not only for teachers but any line of work. All teachers contribute a percentage of each pay check (14.5% currently for me) and the school district matches the amount. A retiring teacher with 30 years of service will get a monthly pension check comparable to their final monthly salary, with cost of living increases.

Now if we can keep the MO legislators out of our business with our pension. Legislators are continually trying to pass laws to allow "diversifying the penion fund portfolio" with investments of our funds. The great majority of teachers want our pension left allow. It is in good shape and safe in our account drawing simple interest.
Click to expand...
The retirement plan is a great incentive to get into teaching. That is the great offset of not making a ton of money. My wife could retire at the age of 53. A full 17 years before I likely get sniff retiring.
Click to expand...
While you probably can't retire at 53, if you put away an amount of money comparable to what is being put in the teacher's retirement fund, you should be able to retire at a much younger age than 70.

The teacher's fund isn't using financial alchemy.
 
Originally posted by Drop.Tine:
Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
Comparison isn't totally accurate in that teaching isn't a true 2080 hour/year job and teachers have benefits that cost a fair amount per hour of pay. And the avg teacher with a masters makes materially more than 28k even to start in St. Louis and other metro areas where these protests are really taking place.

But, yeah. There's certainly a difference.

One could also point out that's an argument to pay teachers more just as much as it is an argument for justifying low wages for fast food workers.

I can also think of jobs that pay worse than teaching in many cases - social work and journalism come to mind.
Click to expand...
1. I bet most motivated teachers work more hours per year than most people sitting behind a desk. My wife really gets about 1 month off a year before she starts working in her classroom and getting ahead with planning. She gets there at about 7:15 and gets home at about 5pm every night M-F.

Then like last night, she worked on grading science projects until about 8:30-9. Those hours don't include working other extra curricular activities.

2. And you're right it isn't accurately comparing two jobs. One requires years of schooling. The other requires nothing other than a brain of a 5th grader to do.
Click to expand...
Plenty of jobs requiring limited post-secondary education make a lot more than teachers. And plenty of Ph.D.s make almost nothing. This gets to the point about compensation being a poor proxy for "value."
 
Originally posted by Neutron Monster:


Originally posted by Drop.Tine:

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
Comparison isn't totally accurate in that teaching isn't a true 2080 hour/year job and teachers have benefits that cost a fair amount per hour of pay. And the avg teacher with a masters makes materially more than 28k even to start in St. Louis and other metro areas where these protests are really taking place.

But, yeah. There's certainly a difference.

One could also point out that's an argument to pay teachers more just as much as it is an argument for justifying low wages for fast food workers.

I can also think of jobs that pay worse than teaching in many cases - social work and journalism come to mind.
Click to expand...
1. I bet most motivated teachers work more hours per year than most people sitting behind a desk. My wife really gets about 1 month off a year before she starts working in her classroom and getting ahead with planning. She gets there at about 7:15 and gets home at about 5pm every night M-F.

Then like last night, she worked on grading science projects until about 8:30-9. Those hours don't include working other extra curricular activities.

2. And you're right it isn't accurately comparing two jobs. One requires years of schooling. The other requires nothing other than a brain of a 5th grader to do.
Click to expand...
Plenty of jobs requiring limited post-secondary education make a lot more than teachers. And plenty of Ph.D.s make almost nothing. This gets to the point about compensation being a poor proxy for "value."
Click to expand...
What is an example of a Ph.D. that doesn't have a decent income outside of the teaching field? I can only think of three people that I personally know that have their Ph.D's. One is an administrator(100+k), chiropractor(100+k) and another who works with in-home special needs(150k last year, former SIL mentioned in another thread).

Also if they're only making that amount with their education, that is by choice. They have the option there.

And those jobs you're referring to usually require a lot more activity than flipping burgers. There is a reason a carpenter gets paid more than a burger flipper. If you can't see that, I am not sure what else there is to say.
 
Pay increases for everyone just puts inflationary pressure on the economy and pretty quick that 15 bucks be worth about ten
 
Originally posted by Stevedangos:
Pay increases for everyone just puts inflationary pressure on the economy and pretty quick that 15 bucks be worth about ten
Click to expand...
Generally, the inflation pressure from a small rise in the wages paid solely to low earners is a de minimis change in inflation.

We have plenty of history on what happens when you increase the minimum wage. It does result in increased purchase power for those individuals.
 
Low paid Ph.Ds are more common than you think. Certainly the specialty plays a big part, as you note. Also, Chiropractors aren't Ph.Ds (nor are doctors, lawyers, nor many other specialties.)

I agree on carpenters but the point still stands that the amount of education is not a great proxy for income.

My point is there's no magic formula for why a job is worth X. We pretend pay is more meaningful than it is.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/the-phd-bust-americas-awful-market-for-young-scientists-in-7-charts/273339/
 
Originally posted by wcowherd:
I think saying doctors and Lawyers aren't PhD's is more a technicality than anything.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Click to expand...
Ah ha the two mensa posters are technicality going at it.
roll.r191677.gif
 
Ag I wouldn't have wanted to trade places with either of them before I retired and I put put in some miserably and miserably cold days on the RR. Have you ate a Mickey D's or BK and watched while a manager and stood watched the timers they have on how long it takes for an order to get to a customer? They can get pretty nasty with their employees if they don't do it like Corporate Mickey wants them to. My daughter has taught 3rd grade for 15 years now and I wouldn't want her job either and I dang sure wouldn't want to teach junior high.
 
No but when's the last time we increased wages for a large segment of the work force by 50% ???

Do you really think companies are going to eat increased payroll costs?? McDonalds is going to jack up the price of a Big Mac to keep their same profit margin
 
If you just bumped it up to $15 all at once there would be havoc. However, raising it incrementally as they have in the past would make sense.
 
3R,

I put in many a long day in the Ag Industry and I would not want to trade with the teacher or the McDonalds worker either one.

However, the fact still remains that a college educated teacher of the next generation brings more value to society than the burger flipper, and the compensation should reflect that.
 
Good teachers should be rewarded. Teachers in general should be paid more. Education overall gets more than enough to do that. We shouldn't be spending what we are now. There is no reason to spend 10K per student for education. 300k to teach a class of 30 is not necassary.
 
If you don't know whether 300K is enough to educate 30 kids, you ain't as smart as you think.

That is the problem! Everyone wants better education, better pay for teachers, etc. but think we need more money to get there. We need less compliance type personel, and more focus on basic education. Government schools are just like any other government agencies......waste, and more waste.
 
If the $300k number is $10k per student, I don't think that's unreasonable when you take into account that pays all the teachers and support staff salaries and plus textbooks plus technology, I think you could do a lot worse. I certainly don't think a school district like, say, miller spends too much per student.
 
If you take away the compliance folks you have someone will do something stupid on school property and school time and the district will get sued, or someone will flunk out and the district will get sued and it will cost waaay more than said compliance persons. That's not to say I think it's right, just that that is why we have all the compliance folks. Most of that is state rules not federal rules.
 
@millerbleach--how much would you pay for day care in a year?

This post was edited on 4/18 7:41 PM by generalt
 
Never paid a dime so I wouldn't know. I do know that you have to have a daycare worker for something like every 5 kids so that would be a very poor comparrison
 
Probably not a good question because I pray every day that Miller doesn't reproduce.
 
Probably not a good question because I pray every day that Miller doesn't reproduce.
 
Originally posted by wcowherd:
If the $300k number is $10k per student, I don't think that's unreasonable when you take into account that pays all the teachers and support staff salaries and plus textbooks plus technology, I think you could do a lot worse. I certainly don't think a school district like, say, miller spends too much per student.
Click to expand...
Yeah, they could waste a lot more....duh.
Textbooks and technology are not every year expenses.
As I said, there is way too much waste and red tape.
Salaries don't come close to exhausting 10K/student.
Facilities are a big expense but even 1K/student/year would be more than sufficient to cover that.
I'm talking national average not a specific school.
 
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