A Strikeout Is Just Another Out?

[goinlong]

I'm not one who subscribes to the aforementioned theory, but let's see what one of the best hitters in the history of the game thinks about strikeouts:

"I also feel like striking out and not putting the ball in play you’re hurting the team twice because when you strike out it’s an automatic out. But if you put the ball in play and he makes an error, even if there are two outs you can start a rally. It’s like a walk. Obviously, a walk doesn’t count as an at-bat as it does with an error, but you know what, you can’t be selfish. They make an error because you put the ball in play and then you score five runs, you’re helping the team because you put the ball in play. So that’s kind of my thinking about the whole thing. The more you can put the ball in play the more chances you’re giving your team to win." -Albert Pujols

 

[vbsideout]

I agree 100%

 

[oldroundballer]

I agree too. But Albert was a special player. Not many power hitters also don't strike out a lot. You always accept a certain number of Ks for the chance at the long ball. And you always hope that number is low. Lol

Albert brings up another good topic. I kind of feel that an error shouldn't really count against the hitter. Why shouldn't it just be nothing like a BB?. Yes you should have been out but the pitcher shouldn't have walked you either. What's the difference? A guy who puts it in play gets penalized and a guy who doesn't, doesn't.

 

[vbsideout]

I agree too. But Albert was a special player. Not many power hitters also don't strike out a lot. You always accept a certain number of Ks for the chance at the long ball. And you always hope that number is low. Lol

Albert brings up another good topic. I kind of feel that an error shouldn't really count against the hitter. Why shouldn't it just be nothing like a BB?. Yes you should have been out but the pitcher shouldn't have walked you either. What's the difference? A guy who puts it in play gets penalized and a guy who doesn't, doesn't.

Well said

 

[goinlong]

I agree too. But Albert was a special player. Not many power hitters also don't strike out a lot. You always accept a certain number of Ks for the chance at the long ball. And you always hope that number is low. Lol

Albert brings up another good topic. I kind of feel that an error shouldn't really count against the hitter. Why shouldn't it just be nothing like a BB?. Yes you should have been out but the pitcher shouldn't have walked you either. What's the difference? A guy who puts it in play gets penalized and a guy who doesn't, doesn't.

It's certainly an intriguing topic to say that reaching on an error shouldn't count as an at bat. I can say that I've never even considered that side of it before.

 

[runyouover]

OK how about this one. Double plays just kill your team. It's two outs in one at bat.
This should also be penalized in some of these new fangled numbers. Results still mean something. This velocity off the bat stuff is annoying as hell. Results baby!!!!

 

[Neutron Monster]

It's certainly an intriguing topic to say that reaching on an error shouldn't count as an at bat. I can say that I've never even considered that side of it before.

I'd be ok if they didn't bother with errors.

If you step back and think about it, the effects of the ballpark itself as well as the overall quality of defense are going to be more meaningful for the average batter's stats than the impact of errors.

 

[goinlong]

I'd be ok if they didn't bother with errors.

If you step back and think about it, the effects of the ballpark itself as well as the overall quality of defense are going to be more meaningful for the average batter's stats than the impact of errors.

True. I mean, the average hitter that has 650 ABs in a year will reach on an error maybe, what, 5 times? I'm not saying it should be changed necessarily. Just that it's an interesting thought that I'd never considered.

 

[Neutron Monster]

True. I mean, the average hitter that has 650 ABs in a year will reach on an error maybe, what, 5 times? I'm not saying it should be changed necessarily. Just that it's an interesting thought that I'd never considered.

My guess is the average MLB team's stats work is much more sophisticated on this topic than the basic stats are.

 

[Neutron Monster]

I'm not one who subscribes to the aforementioned theory, but let's see what one of the best hitters in the history of the game thinks about strikeouts:

"I also feel like striking out and not putting the ball in play you’re hurting the team twice because when you strike out it’s an automatic out. But if you put the ball in play and he makes an error, even if there are two outs you can start a rally. It’s like a walk. Obviously, a walk doesn’t count as an at-bat as it does with an error, but you know what, you can’t be selfish. They make an error because you put the ball in play and then you score five runs, you’re helping the team because you put the ball in play. So that’s kind of my thinking about the whole thing. The more you can put the ball in play the more chances you’re giving your team to win." -Albert Pujols

I don't think anyone says a strikeout is the same.

It's just that the gap between a hit or walk and an out in play is much larger than the gap between an out in play and a strikeout.

 

[vbsideout]

I don't think anyone says a strikeout is the same.

It's just that the gap between a hit or walk and an out in play is much larger than the gap between an out in play and a strikeout.

Brian Kinney would disagree

 

[3Rfan]

I don't think anyone says a strikeout is the same.

It's just that the gap between a hit or walk and an out in play is much larger than the gap between an out in play and a strikeout.

actually LOTS of people say a strikeout is 'just another out!' Many on here say so and so do the stats gurus of the world. It's just silly to say that it's not worse than putting the ball in play so something good 'might' happen.

 

[you_dont_know_me]

Ummm, sac fly, move runner to third on ground ball behind them...especially situationally with a pitcher up...sac bunts.

 

[you_dont_know_me]

That's why at the professional level and elite programs they also have "A hack" and "B hack" Double play situation, you deploy "A hack" with 2 strikes to avoid weak hit balls, as you would rather have a K than a 6-4-3

 

[3Rfan]

That's why at the professional level and elite programs they also have "A hack" and "B hack" Double play situation, you deploy "A hack" with 2 strikes to avoid weak hit balls, as you would rather have a K than a 6-4-3

Because the DP is such an automatic thang?

 

[Eagles_Ball]

actually LOTS of people say a strikeout is 'just another out!' Many on here say so and so do the stats gurus of the world. It's just silly to say that it's not worse than putting the ball in play so something good 'might' happen.

Good God man. Literally the most hard-headed and literal person I know, or cyber-know.

 

[you_dont_know_me]

Because the DP is such an automatic thang?

Just playing the odds...usually pitchers are throwing junk and pounding the low part of the zone to induce a grounder...nothing worse than a weak hit ground ball then.

 

[3Rfan]

Just playing the odds...usually pitchers are throwing junk and pounding the low part of the zone to induce a grounder...nothing worse than a weak hit ground ball then.

Maybe you guys should listen to some of the really good past MLB players. They say striking out is NOT anywhere near as good as putting the ball in play. I know you guys want to throw out a pitcher hitting into a DP and think you prove your point. How many times does a pitcher bat in a 9 inning game and how many times will the other 8 guys bat? Put the frickin ball in play and something good 'could happen' for your team. NOT so with a strikeout!!!!

 

[runyouover]

Maybe you guys should listen to some of the really good past MLB players. They say striking out is NOT anywhere near as good as putting the ball in play. I know you guys want to throw out a pitcher hitting into a DP and think you prove your point. How many times does a pitcher bat in a 9 inning game and how many times will the other 8 guys bat? Put the frickin ball in play and something good 'could happen' for your team. NOT so with a strikeout!!!!

Why don't you just watch the games and stop complaining.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Maybe you guys should listen to some of the really good past MLB players. They say striking out is NOT anywhere near as good as putting the ball in play. I know you guys want to throw out a pitcher hitting into a DP and think you prove your point. How many times does a pitcher bat in a 9 inning game and how many times will the other 8 guys bat? Put the frickin ball in play and something good 'could happen' for your team. NOT so with a strikeout!!!!

What you have, and always will fail to understand...it's give and take. I'd much rather have a Grichuck type in the lineup than Greg Garcia. That's it. And that's about all anybody else on here has ever said. You sacrifice contact for power. It's yin and yang. And to balance that decision on why you do it, is a K is just the same as any other out AT TIMES. Not all of the time. AT TIMES. The percentages prove it. It's all a balance, but because you're so literal I know I'm wasting my breath.

 

[goinlong]

What you have, and always will fail to understand...it's give and take. I'd much rather have a Grichuck type in the lineup than Greg Garcia. That's it. And that's about all anybody else on here has ever said. You sacrifice contact for power. It's yin and yang. And to balance that decision on why you do it, is a K is just the same as any other out AT TIMES. Not all of the time. AT TIMES. The percentages prove it. It's all a balance, but because you're so literal I know I'm wasting my breath.

There still needs to be situational hitting. If you're a power guy who can mash, but tends to strike out a lot and there's a runner on 2nd and no one out, you want to get that runner to 3rd so a sac fly can score them. A strikeout doesn't help anyone there. So, I agree that there's a give and take, but there should be a give and take all around.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

There still needs to be situational hitting. If you're a power guy who can mash, but tends to strike out a lot and there's a runner on 2nd and no one out, you want to get that runner to 3rd so a sac fly can score them. A strikeout doesn't help anyone there. So, I agree that there's a give and take, but there should be a give and take all around.

But what if he hits a two-run HR or double in the gap?

 

[goinlong]

But what if he hits a two-run HR or double in the gap?

I totally understand that argument too. Honestly, I wish there were a breakdown of how often either of the situations leads to runs on the board. If it's better to let him grip and rip or to move the runner up...that could tend to make me change my opinion.

 

[you_dont_know_me]

Maybe you guys should listen to some of the really good past MLB players. They say striking out is NOT anywhere near as good as putting the ball in play. I know you guys want to throw out a pitcher hitting into a DP and think you prove your point. How many times does a pitcher bat in a 9 inning game and how many times will the other 8 guys bat? Put the frickin ball in play and something good 'could happen' for your team. NOT so with a strikeout!!!!

I didn't even disagree with you (I think most situations you are right), but in certain situations, in the major leagues, it is better to strike out. It really is. Maybe if you had played high level baseball somewhere, you might be privvy to some of that.

 

[runyouover]

You want a diverse lineup without more than one or two Grichuks. You need guys who make contact and spray the ball around mixed in there so you can win the 3-2 games as well as the 10-6. Last year the cardinals lost too many of the 3-2 games.

The great Yankees teams of the late 90's had guys who battled and made pitchers work and made contact. Hardly a grichuk to be found on those teams.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

You want a diverse lineup without more than one or two Grichuks. You need guys who make contact and spray the ball around mixed in there so you can win the 3-2 games as well as the 10-6. Last year the cardinals lost too many of the 3-2 games.

The great Yankees teams of the late 90's had guys who battled and made pitchers work and made contact. Hardly a grichuk to be found on those teams.

The MLB of 2017 isn't the MLB of the mid to late 90s. Way more swing and miss pitchers. I get some of that is on the hitter, but just look at the velocity difference. It's eye-opening.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

I totally understand that argument too. Honestly, I wish there were a breakdown of how often either of the situations leads to runs on the board. If it's better to let him grip and rip or to move the runner up...that could tend to make me change my opinion.

Totally agree. I'm sure it's out there somewhere. Heck if I'd know where to find it though. My understanding of metrics is very minimal at best.

 

[runyouover]

The MLB of 2017 isn't the MLB of the mid to late 90s. Way more swing and miss pitchers. I get some of that is on the hitter, but just look at the velocity difference. It's eye-opening.

As is Tommy John. Eye opening.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

As is Tommy John. Eye opening.

I get that, but doesn't really change the point of your mid 90s Yankee lineups.

 

[Duck_walk]

I get that, but doesn't really change the point of your mid 90s Yankee lineups.

MLB is in love with the K. They are obsessed with exit velocity even if the contact is infrequent. The radar gun is more important than oxygen. Stolen bases? Few and far between. The end result is a lot of whiffs, replaced elbow tendons and an inferior product that has them freaked out over how to speed up a game that we liked fine before now. Thank god for nachos, warm doughnuts and four pitching changes in the sixth inning.

 

[goinlong]

Thank god for nachos and warm doughnuts.

Funny story about ballpark nachos...I was at a game one day and made the trek to the concession stand to get a supreme order. I asked for jalapenos because, of course, you can't have ballpark nachos without them. I came back to my seat and the fella and his girlfriend or wife next to him stared at me incredulously. I kind of glanced over and noticed and as I did he stated, "Are you going to eat those?" "Yeah???", I retorted. They then asked for a picture to prove that, yes, someone was apparently that much of a hard@$$. And that's the story of how I broke my toilet...

 

[you_dont_know_me]

"moneyball" metrics have shown that stolen bases and sacrifice bunts are mathematically overvalued by baseball traditionalists...but again like I have said in this thread...in one situation, it may be worth it.

 

[3Rfan]

The MLB of 2017 isn't the MLB of the mid to late 90s. Way more swing and miss pitchers. I get some of that is on the hitter, but just look at the velocity difference. It's eye-opening.

Really?!!! Who was it that city Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton and Sandy Koufax so well? They lowered the mound because Gibson and a few others were dominating MLB!

 

[Neutron Monster]

Totally agree. I'm sure it's out there somewhere. Heck if I'd know where to find it though. My understanding of metrics is very minimal at best.

It exists - there's plenty of work on run expectations that would address this. http://www.sportsonearth.com/articl...ut-victor-martinez-carlos-lee-placido-polanco This sort of thing

Yes, a K is worse than a ground out or fly out, but the gap is nothing compared to the decline in run expectation caused by making an out vs. getting on base.

 

[vbsideout]

It exists - there's plenty of work on run expectations that would address this. http://www.sportsonearth.com/articl...ut-victor-martinez-carlos-lee-placido-polanco This sort of thing

Yes, a K is worse than a ground out or fly out, but the gap is nothing compared to the decline in run expectation caused by making an out vs. getting on base.

I know little about sabermetics. I do know as a head high school coach for 13 years I seldom sat in the dugout and wished for a guy to strike out in order to avoid a DP or strikeout for any reason. Always thought and still think putting the ball in play was a better option than a swing and a miss.

 

[you_dont_know_me]

I know little about sabermetics. I do know as a head high school coach for 13 years I seldom sat in the dugout and wished for a guy to strike out in order to avoid a DP or strikeout for any reason. Always thought and still think putting the ball in play was a better option than a swing and a miss.

Agree in high school all day

 

[vbsideout]

Agree in high school all day

Yep. It is very different as the skill level gets better. You are correct sir.

 

[wccards21]

Maybe you guys should listen to some of the really good past MLB players. They say striking out is NOT anywhere near as good as putting the ball in play. I know you guys want to throw out a pitcher hitting into a DP and think you prove your point. How many times does a pitcher bat in a 9 inning game and how many times will the other 8 guys bat? Put the frickin ball in play and something good 'could happen' for your team. NOT so with a strikeout!!!!

Lololololololololololololol

 

[have an idea]

Having experience doesn't count for anything.

 

[justaconcernedcitizen]

The take of a home run for strikeouts argument is insane to me. Most power hitters today hit a home run 1 out of 20 or so at-bats. Those same hitters will strike out 4 or 5 times in those at-bats, maybe more. Let's look at some of the best power hitters of all time. Bonds, Aaron, Mantle, DiMaggio, Musial, Williams, Mays, and more were high home run total guys that finished at or above .300 for their career. Gap to Gap approach with a line drive swing will produce home runs. Guys with an all or nothing approach in their swing struggle to make consistent contact which is why I believe that we see lower and lower scores. Cut down on the swing and make contact. Power is starting to outweigh the for average hitter and I don't think it makes for better baseball.

For instance the Cards last year would lose games 5-4 and hit four home runs, because they did not have contact guys that had competitive approaches at the plate. Power does not translate into wins.