A Strikeout Is Just Another Out?

[Neutron Monster]

The take of a home run for strikeouts argument is insane to me. Most power hitters today hit a home run 1 out of 20 or so at-bats. Those same hitters will strike out 4 or 5 times in those at-bats, maybe more. Let's look at some of the best power hitters of all time. Bonds, Aaron, Mantle, DiMaggio, Musial, Williams, Mays, and more were high home run total guys that finished at or above .300 for their career. Gap to Gap approach with a line drive swing will produce home runs. Guys with an all or nothing approach in their swing struggle to make consistent contact which is why I believe that we see lower and lower scores. Cut down on the swing and make contact. Power is starting to outweigh the for average hitter and I don't think it makes for better baseball.

For instance the Cards last year would lose games 5-4 and hit four home runs, because they did not have contact guys that had competitive approaches at the plate. Power does not translate into wins.

You're ignoring everything else that has changed about the game in your comments here.

Power is naturally going to outweigh other items somewhat when the average pitcher throws 90+ and 1/3rd of your at bats are coming against relief specialists. Teams are selecting pitchers for their ability to get Ks.

The average score in baseball has gone up and down over time - for instance, Hank Aaron played in an awful lot of low scoring games.

The strike zone has expanded over the last few years, naturally increasing the K rate.

The quality of defense has varied a lot over time. The average defense is loads better today than it once was. The value of putting the ball in play is less when the average fielder is more likely to get you out.

There's also increased recognition of the value of a walk vs. the value of an out. Take the extreme example of Adam Dunn, K machine, versus Ichiro. Who was more likely to reach base when they came up to bat? Hint: not Ichiro. Ks are generally heavily correlated with walks since they require working the counts.

Given the setup of the game in 2017, MLB teams are being quite rational by prioritizing OBP and SLG over making contact.

 

[Neutron Monster]

To add on one last point, the relatively low value of Ks relative to getting on base, hitting for power, and playing defense is pretty obvious when you look at the Cubs roster. The are happy to have guys like Rizzo whose K rate is decent for a power hitter, but they are also fine with Kris Bryant, Kyle Schwarber, Javier Baez, etc. because the value of their other abilities is so high.

 

[justaconcernedcitizen]

To add on one last point, the relatively low value of Ks relative to getting on base, hitting for power, and playing defense is pretty obvious when you look at the Cubs roster. The are happy to have guys like Rizzo whose K rate is decent for a power hitter, but they are also fine with Kris Bryant, Kyle Schwarber, Javier Baez, etc. because the value of their other abilities is so high.

You cannot get on base while striking out, at least not very often. Once again you are assuming that I am thinking of contact in the realm of just being "productive outs." My argument stems from that strikeouts do not help anyone, while hitting for average (aka getting on base more often) is better than just hitting for power. Not once did I say that OBP or power were not important, but I did striking out a lot is important. I am saying that power, average, and OBP are important. Strikeouts hurt all of those. I guess just call me old fashioned.

 

[Neutron Monster]

You cannot get on base while striking out, at least not very often. Once again you are assuming that I am thinking of contact in the realm of just being "productive outs." My argument stems from that strikeouts do not help anyone, while hitting for average (aka getting on base more often) is better than just hitting for power. Not once did I say that OBP or power were not important, but I did striking out a lot is important. I am saying that power, average, and OBP are important. Strikeouts hurt all of those. I guess just call me old fashioned.

You can as long as you have a high walk rate to go along with a high K rate. hits are not the only way to get on base. Lots of guys with high K rates have high walk rates because they are working deep into the count. Think of Matt carpenter.

You can't discuss the rise in Ks without also addressing the rise in BBs.

Batting average is pretty clearly less important than OBP and SLG based upon how the game is played now. OBP is the most important of all.

 

[justaconcernedcitizen]

You can as long as you have a high walk rate to go along with a high K rate. hits are not the only way to get on base. Lots of guys with high K rates have high walk rates because they are working deep into the count. Think of Matt carpenter.

You can't discuss the rise in Ks without also addressing the rise in BBs.

Batting average is pretty clearly less important than OBP and SLG based upon how the game is played now. OBP is the most important of all.

I get your point, but you are missing mine. Bonds and other guys like Pujols in his prime were high walk guys with high averages and power. What I am saying is guys that can hit for average and draw walks, and hit with power while striking out fewer times used to be the sought after players, but now they are far and few between. This is because everyone wants to hit for power with and forget about shortening up with two strikes and look to drive the ball the other way. All I am saying is at the end of the day that the strikeout does nothing for nobody. I want to see the high average, high power, high walk total and low strikeouts come back.

 

[you_dont_know_me]

I get your point, but you are missing mine. Bonds and other guys like Pujols in his prime were high walk guys with high averages and power. What I am saying is guys that can hit for average and draw walks, and hit with power while striking out fewer times used to be the sought after players, but now they are far and few between. This is because everyone wants to hit for power with and forget about shortening up with two strikes and look to drive the ball the other way. All I am saying is at the end of the day that the strikeout does nothing for nobody. I want to see the high average, high power, high walk total and low strikeouts come back.

I don't think the high power guys choose to strike out...and I think they would all take Albert Pujols numbers

 

[Neutron Monster]

I get your point, but you are missing mine. Bonds and other guys like Pujols in his prime were high walk guys with high averages and power. What I am saying is guys that can hit for average and draw walks, and hit with power while striking out fewer times used to be the sought after players, but now they are far and few between. This is because everyone wants to hit for power with and forget about shortening up with two strikes and look to drive the ball the other way. All I am saying is at the end of the day that the strikeout does nothing for nobody. I want to see the high average, high power, high walk total and low strikeouts come back.

Of course I would rather my guys strike out less in a vacuum. But you have the guys you have.

These guys aren't coming back. Really, they never existed in large quantities. There was never an era with high HR, high BB, high average, and low Ks. Your question is why can't everyone hit like a hall of famer. Back in the days the average player wasn't like Ted Williams. The average starting position player in 1950 walked under 50 times a year and hit under 10 HR.

And the average pitcher didn't throw 90+ or throw 30 crazy breaking balls a game before 4 other guys came in to throw 5-20 pitches at max velocity with a crazy shifting defense behind them.

 

[Neutron Monster]

I don't think the high power guys choose to strike out...and I think they would all take Albert Pujols numbers

Exactly.

Everyone wishes their best player struck out like Pujols, Carlos Lee, or pre-2016 Edwin encarnacion. But the best players in the game in 2017 are pretty clearly Mike Trout and Kris Bryant. Each one has a decent chance to strike out 150 times this year. They are just so good at everything else that it overwhelms the Ks.

 

[wccards21]

Exactly.

Everyone wishes their best player struck out like Pujols, Carlos Lee, or pre-2016 Edwin encarnacion. But the best players in the game in 2017 are pretty clearly Mike Trout and Kris Bryant. Each one has a decent chance to strike out 150 times this year. They are just so good at everything else that it overwhelms the Ks.

Bingo. Who the hell would a team take over Trout or Bryant? They strike out.....and get on base more than anyone.

Trout had a 20% K Rate and also had the highest OBP in the league. Bryant was at 22% and was the 14th best OBP. Strikeouts really hurt both of those players tremendously

 

[3Rfan]

Bingo. Who the hell would a team take over Trout or Bryant? They strike out.....and get on base more than anyone.

Trout had a 20% K Rate and also had the highest OBP in the league. Bryant was at 22% and was the 14th best OBP. Strikeouts really hurt both of those players tremendously

So you don't want to use a Pujols as an example of one that doesn't strikeout much, but you DO want to use two current stars that do. Sure anybody would take those guys with their strikeouts and other numbers. I have a news flash for ya, it aint just the super stars with big stats that strikeout a LOT these days. Matt Carpenter was a much better player for the Cardinals when he struck out a LOT less and had 50+ doubles with fewer HR's. They decided he should be a HR hitter so now he is what he is and struck out over 100 times even while still being a leadoff guy. 100 plus strikeouts suck. I don't care what you say.

 

[wccards21]

So you don't want to use a Pujols as an example of one that doesn't strikeout much, but you DO want to use two current stars that do. Sure anybody would take those guys with their strikeouts and other numbers. I have a news flash for ya, it aint just the super stars with big stats that strikeout a LOT these days. Matt Carpenter was a much better player for the Cardinals when he struck out a LOT less and had 50+ doubles with fewer HR's. They decided he should be a HR hitter so now he is what he is and struck out over 100 times even while still being a leadoff guy. 100 plus strikeouts suck. I don't care what you say.

Congrats on your Pujols argument. Can you name any others in the last 20 years that were not tied to steroid use? I'll gladly take Trout striking out 150 times per year. I'll give you Darwin Barney who might K 80 times. I'm sure you'll win

 

[3Rfan]

Congrats on your Pujols argument. Can you name any others in the last 20 years that were not tied to steroid use? I'll gladly take Trout striking out 150 times per year. I'll give you Darwin Barney who might K 80 times. I'm sure you'll win

So you're sticking whit you super star guys to make your point. How many guys that are NOT a super star hit 25 or 30 HRs and strikeout 150 times. I'll bet there is a LOT of them.

 

[Duck_walk]

I will pay everyone $20 to never discuss this topic again. This is reaching Veer vs Kenny Mizzou vs FSU level annoying.

 

[3Rfan]

I will pay everyone $20 to never discuss this topic again. This is reaching Veer vs Kenny Mizzou vs FSU level annoying.

Send mine now. When I get the money I'll put any discussion about it on ignore.

 

[Duck_walk]

Send mine now. When I get the money I'll put any discussion about it on ignore.

It's in the mail 3R

 

[goinlong]

I will pay everyone $20 to never discuss this topic again. This is reaching Veer vs Kenny Mizzou vs FSU level annoying.

I'd like to apologize for opening this can of worms...really didn't think it would blow up like this. Does apologizing mean I get $20 too?

 

[vbsideout]

I will pay everyone $20 to never discuss this topic again. This is reaching Veer vs Kenny Mizzou vs FSU level annoying.

I would prefer it in ones they work better on poker night

 

[Duck_walk]

I'd like to apologize for opening this can of worms...really didn't think it would blow up like this. Does apologizing mean I get $20 too?

If everyone will spend their money in St Francois county it will work.

 

[goinlong]

If everyone will spend their money in St Francois county it will work.

The Duck_walk stimulus plan?

 

[vbsideout]

If everyone will spend their money in St Francois county it will work.

lol count me in love me some white castles

 

[3Rfan]

If everyone will spend their money in St Francois county it will work.

I can do that, I'm up there lot for basketball and softball.