What's a person suppose to do?

[HannibalLector]

If a policeman encounters, let's say, 2 young men walking down the street, and he asks/tells them to get back on the sidewalk, and they refuse. Does he say, "come on guys get back on the sidewalk, please". And they refuse. He then say, " dad gummit fellas please don't walk in the middle of the street". And they say, "we can walk where ever we please". He says, "but, but guys you need to walk on the sidewalk. "No" they say. So the policeman says, "Ok darn it be careful". "Please don't hit me in the face again". "No you can't have my gun."

Or ever watch "Cops". The guy always says, "That's not my (drugs/gun/billfold/car/etc.)" These cuffs are too tight, not comfortable, pinching me. You're hurting me, I can't breath, etc.

Are some policemen "cowboys"? Sure. Is their life on the line every time they go out on duty? You bet. Would you err on the side of protecting your life? Yep. No they weren't in any apparent danger with the NYC dude, but all he had to do was comply. Was their intent to kill him? Nope. They tried to talk first, they can't plead with him or just walk away. (See 1st paragraph).

 

[Black&Gold82]

Originally posted by HannibalLector:
If a policeman encounters, let's say, 2 young men walking down the street, and he asks/tells them to get back on the sidewalk, and they refuse. Does he say, "come on guys get back on the sidewalk, please". And they refuse. He then say, " dad gummit fellas please don't walk in the middle of the street". And they say, "we can walk where ever we please". He says, "but, but guys you need to walk on the sidewalk. "No" they say. So the policeman says, "Ok darn it be careful". "Please don't hit me in the face again". "No you can't have my gun."

Or ever watch "Cops". The guy always says, "That's not my (drugs/gun/billfold/car/etc.)" These cuffs are too tight, not comfortable, pinching me. You're hurting me, I can't breath, etc.

Are some policemen "cowboys"? Sure. Is their life on the line every time they go out on duty? You bet. Would you err on the side of protecting your life? Yep. No they weren't in any apparent danger with the NYC dude, but all he had to do was comply. Was their intent to kill him? Nope. They tried to talk first, they can't plead with him or just walk away. (See 1st paragraph).

I agree. Why does everything have to be a conflict?

 

[oldroundballer]

Originally posted by Black&Gold82:

Originally posted by HannibalLector:
If a policeman encounters, let's say, 2 young men walking down the street, and he asks/tells them to get back on the sidewalk, and they refuse. Does he say, "come on guys get back on the sidewalk, please". And they refuse. He then say, " dad gummit fellas please don't walk in the middle of the street". And they say, "we can walk where ever we please". He says, "but, but guys you need to walk on the sidewalk. "No" they say. So the policeman says, "Ok darn it be careful". "Please don't hit me in the face again". "No you can't have my gun."

Or ever watch "Cops". The guy always says, "That's not my (drugs/gun/billfold/car/etc.)" These cuffs are too tight, not comfortable, pinching me. You're hurting me, I can't breath, etc.

Are some policemen "cowboys"? Sure. Is their life on the line every time they go out on duty? You bet. Would you err on the side of protecting your life? Yep. No they weren't in any apparent danger with the NYC dude, but all he had to do was comply. Was their intent to kill him? Nope. They tried to talk first, they can't plead with him or just walk away. (See 1st paragraph).

I agree. Why does everything have to be a conflict?

This whole problem is an authority issue. It isn't race as some want us to believe. The videos show them treating black cops just a bad as white cops. Even the high school kids were screaming obscenities at black cops. They simply don't want to be subjected to any authority.

 

[Neutron Monster]

Call for backup before escalating the situation would be the optimal response to the first paragraph. Don't put yourself in a potentially bad situation.

No one is arguing for cops to not engage or do their job. What is being asked is for people to, you know, not kill people they don't have to kill. There was zero need to kill Eric Garner. There was a need for Darren Wilson to defend himself.

Police are required to act in ways that are not just about maximizing their safety. They could simply shoot every suspect on sight if that were the case. Being a cop does not grant you the right to violate the rights of everyone else.

 

[Neutron Monster]

Spend a few days in a rough neighborhood and see how the cops treat people there. You'll understand a little more about why people from those neighborhoods have a distaste for police.

It's not just a one-way street.

 

[oldroundballer]

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
Spend a few days in a rough neighborhood and see how the cops treat people there. You'll understand a little more about why people from those neighborhoods have a distaste for police.

It's not just a one-way street.

I don't disagree with that at all. But I also know it's not just a one-way street the other way.

And it's not just cops. The locals shoot each other, rob each other and burn down neighbor's businesses. Is that a result of how the cops treat them? Bottom line is there a huge lack of respect and responsibility in those neighborhoods. Law enforcement has become the scapegoat for their problems.

 

[3Rfan]

Eric Garner died, the grand jury saw no proof that the police killed him. If he could tell them 11 times that he couldn't breath, it's pretty obvious that he could breath! It's an unfortunate situation that he died from some other health issues triggered by the wrestling match, but it appears he was NOT choked to death. Just like in Ferguson had the guy just complied with police he would be alive today. The difference in NY is that guy had been arrested over 30 times for doing what he was doing, knew the drill, he knew exactly why the cops were there and told them he was "tired of being arrested." Guess what, if you're tired of being arrested for something then STOP DOING IT!!!!

 

[Neutron Monster]

Originally posted by oldroundballer:

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
Spend a few days in a rough neighborhood and see how the cops treat people there. You'll understand a little more about why people from those neighborhoods have a distaste for police.

It's not just a one-way street.

I don't disagree with that at all. But I also know it's not just a one-way street the other way.

And it's not just cops. The locals shoot each other, rob each other and burn down neighbor's businesses. Is that a result of how the cops treat them? Bottom line is there a huge lack of respect and responsibility in those neighborhoods. Law enforcement has become the scapegoat for their problems.

No question the choices of people in bad neighborhoods drive the crime. For the most part, crime is driven by drugs, gang activity, and poverty in those areas. Those are the real problems that demand police and societal attention.

 

[oldroundballer]

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:

Originally posted by oldroundballer:

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
Spend a few days in a rough neighborhood and see how the cops treat people there. You'll understand a little more about why people from those neighborhoods have a distaste for police.

It's not just a one-way street.

I don't disagree with that at all. But I also know it's not just a one-way street the other way.

And it's not just cops. The locals shoot each other, rob each other and burn down neighbor's businesses. Is that a result of how the cops treat them? Bottom line is there a huge lack of respect and responsibility in those neighborhoods. Law enforcement has become the scapegoat for their problems.

No question the choices of people in bad neighborhoods drive the crime. For the most part, crime is driven by drugs, gang activity, and poverty in those areas. Those are the real problems that demand police and societal attention.

So tell me why we're not hearing that from Al and Jesse and Obama and Holder and every other mouthpiece who's spouting about this deal? All we're hearing from those who could possibly make a real difference is that cops are the problem and their civil rights are being violated, etc, etc. Nothing about the real problems you mentioned.

i'll admit I wasn't a fan of Obama and still am not. But when he was elected I thought it could be a good thing for exactly what we're talking about. I was hoping, if nothing else, he could have some influence with the folks in these poor neighborhoods like we're talking about. I was hoping he could get them to take some more responsibility and have some more respect for themselves and others and actually make progress at helping their situations. But you know what, it's worse now than it was 6 years ago. And that's horribly disappointing. It's as if Obama wanted them to vote for him but after that he has no use. We all know what Jesse and Al's agendas are. But Obama and the first lady could have made a real difference in this area. Unfortunately neither has chosen to get involved in a positive manner. Can you tell me why that is? Can you tell me why, when a white person brings up exactly what you pointed out above, they're immediately labeled a racist? Even blacks who say these things are crucified. You're a smart guy NM. I enjoy most or your posts on here. You seem pretty even keel about most things. Can you tell me why this happens? And without positive help from those like I've mentioned what can the solutions possibly be?

 

[Drop.Tine]

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
Spend a few days in a rough neighborhood and see how the cops treat people there. You'll understand a little more about why people from those neighborhoods have a distaste for police.

It's not just a one-way street.

West County must have gone down hill fast since I left.

 

[Neutron Monster]

I think there is an unwillingness among many leaders to deliver the right balance of protest and tough messages in incidences like these. I think it's also really hard to do because many on both sides are really only interested in hearing one of the two messages.

I don't think you're hearing what you think you're hearing from Obama and Holder, though. They've been pretty quiet overall.

I think Obama has not focused on the poor and Black America as much as many in those communities would like. I think that's an honest criticism. I think he can argue back that saving the economy was something he had to focus on instead of worrying about leading a 21st century war on poverty at first, and he can also counter pretty accurately that the Republican Party of 2010-2014 has little appetite to do anything about it besides cut benefits for the poor and spend those cuts on welfare for the rich. But, when you see he was able to pass Obamacare, again, one can wonder if there was a better road for him to go down with respect to fighting poverty.

I think Obama was afraid of looking like the President of Black America and that made him feel like he just couldn't do what you're asking him to do. I think there's a fair amount of truth in his reticence to do this - it probably would have hurt him electorally (not that Obamacare did any better for him but that's another point entirely).

______________________________________________________

The problem is many of the white people who bring this up don't do it constructively. It's also difficult to argue you actually care about the poor and improving the lives of all Americans when your political actions are in direct opposition to this, which is true of a pretty decent % of elected Republicans. Further, there are many who really only want to talk about law and order and it all being the fault of poor people without taking a look at the whole picture.

Take a counter to this - look at what Rand Paul is doing - he's out there reaching out to black Americans. He's reaching out to local communities and leaders. He's advocating for at least some policies that can improve their lives How many of the white politicians going on about law and order have done this in their career? I disagree with him a lot, but I think he's actually interested in improving the lives of all Americans, whereas I think a lot of other Rs really don't care all that much about it.

 

[HannibalLector]

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
Call for backup before escalating the situation would be the optimal response to the first paragraph. Don't put yourself in a potentially bad situation.

You are wrong. You don't call for back up on a minor deal. Walking in the street, jay walking, etc. Good grief you would have a police shortage all of the time.

 

[HannibalLector]

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
Spend a few days in a rough neighborhood and see how the cops treat people there. You'll understand a little more about why people from those neighborhoods have a distaste for police.

It's not just a one-way street.

They are treated like they deserve. You said it all when you said "rough neighborhood".

This post was edited on 12/5 12:49 PM by HannibalLector

 

[Neutron Monster]

Originally posted by HannibalLector:

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
Call for backup before escalating the situation would be the optimal response to the first paragraph. Don't put yourself in a potentially bad situation.

You are wrong. You don't call for back up on a minor deal. Walking in the street, jay walking, etc. Good grief you would have a police shortage all of the time.

You don't call for backup to talk to the guys in the roadway, but if you have to engage them beyond that, you've got to call for backup ASAP.

You must not live in the St. Louis area, where it takes two cops to do nearly anything.

 

[Neutron Monster]

Originally posted by HannibalLector:

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
Spend a few days in a rough neighborhood and see how the cops treat people there. You'll understand a little more about why people from those neighborhoods have a distaste for police.

It's not just a one-way street.

They are treated like they deserve. You said it all when you said "rough neighborhood".

This post was edited on 12/5 12:49 PM by HannibalLector

You reap what you sow in life. The cops are no different. Treat people like they are dirt and they'll respond in kind. Police have to work more with those neighborhoods in many cases, not against them.

Some of it is beyond the cops - being the enforcer of unpopular laws and being the enforcer of what is basically legalized extortion for traffic offenses in many North County municipalities creates additional problems for the police.

 

[oldroundballer]

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
I think there is an unwillingness among many leaders to deliver the right balance of protest and tough messages in incidences like these. I think it's also really hard to do because many on both sides are really only interested in hearing one of the two messages.

I don't think you're hearing what you think you're hearing from Obama and Holder, though. They've been pretty quiet overall.

I think Obama has not focused on the poor and Black America as much as many in those communities would like. I think that's an honest criticism. I think he can argue back that saving the economy was something he had to focus on instead of worrying about leading a 21st century war on poverty at first, and he can also counter pretty accurately that the Republican Party of 2010-2014 has little appetite to do anything about it besides cut benefits for the poor and spend those cuts on welfare for the rich. But, when you see he was able to pass Obamacare, again, one can wonder if there was a better road for him to go down with respect to fighting poverty.

I think Obama was afraid of looking like the President of Black America and that made him feel like he just couldn't do what you're asking him to do. I think there's a fair amount of truth in his reticence to do this - it probably would have hurt him electorally (not that Obamacare did any better for him but that's another point entirely).

______________________________________________________

The problem is many of the white people who bring this up don't do it constructively. It's also difficult to argue you actually care about the poor and improving the lives of all Americans when your political actions are in direct opposition to this, which is true of a pretty decent % of elected Republicans. Further, there are many who really only want to talk about law and order and it all being the fault of poor people without taking a look at the whole picture.

Take a counter to this - look at what Rand Paul is doing - he's out there reaching out to black Americans. He's reaching out to local communities and leaders. He's advocating for at least some policies that can improve their lives How many of the white politicians going on about law and order have done this in their career? I disagree with him a lot, but I think he's actually interested in improving the lives of all Americans, whereas I think a lot of other Rs really don't care all that much about it.

So like everything else it's mostly Rs fault. Obama gets a pass for political reasons. OK.

Nice chatting with you. Have a great day.

 

[oldroundballer]

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:

Originally posted by HannibalLector:

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
Call for backup before escalating the situation would be the optimal response to the first paragraph. Don't put yourself in a potentially bad situation.

You are wrong. You don't call for back up on a minor deal. Walking in the street, jay walking, etc. Good grief you would have a police shortage all of the time.

You don't call for backup to talk to the guys in the roadway, but if you have to engage them beyond that, you've got to call for backup ASAP.

You must not live in the St. Louis area, where it takes two cops to do nearly anything.

And you must not have watched Wilson's interview with George S. Or you don't believe what he said, which could actually be and no doubt was, verified by radio recordings.

 

[Neutron Monster]

I would not say I gave Obama a pass there. I think it's a good criticism of his; I agree with the premise you raised and the substance of the argument. It seems like he has felt very averse to deal with matters of great importance to people of color because he's been afraid of being perceived as the President of Black America.

When you look at health care, immigration, and gay rights, you can see areas where the President has spent a lot of political capital that are important to his base. When it comes to issues that are of most importance to Black America, where has he shown such leadership and effort? I can't really think of any off the top of my head.

I think it's his fault as much as it is the Rs. I was trying to separate the two points - point 1 is he hasn't made the effort. Point 2 is that it's difficult to take criticisms from a lot of white people seriously when they don't appear to care about the poor.

For all of GWB's faults, I don't doubt that the last President cared about the poor. I may disagree with his actions, but you don't push for No Child Left Behind, an expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit, and expand the Child Tax Credit if you don't care about the poor. Even Medicare Part D should be counted as an anti-poverty program; the biggest beneficiary of that law is poor seniors. His rhetoric aligned with this - he did care about the poor.

Even Paul Ryan - I think his ways to fight poverty are not aligned with my own, but I think the guy genuinely cares about the poor.

I think there are a lot of Southern Republicans who view anti-poverty initiatives a being inherently wrong, though, and they deserve a lot of scorn.
This post was edited on 12/5 3:33 PM by Neutron Monster

 

[HannibalLector]

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:

Originally posted by HannibalLector:

Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
Call for backup before escalating the situation would be the optimal response to the first paragraph. Don't put yourself in a potentially bad situation.

You are wrong. You don't call for back up on a minor deal. Walking in the street, jay walking, etc. Good grief you would have a police shortage all of the time.

You don't call for backup to talk to the guys in the roadway, but if you have to engage them beyond that, you've got to call for backup ASAP.

You must not live in the St. Louis area, where it takes two cops to do nearly anything.

That's what I said police shortage you have 2 and you call in 2 more.

He didn't have a chance or time to call for back-up when he was attacked in his own car and having a punk go for his gun. Oh right, "Could you please quit hitting me and trying to take my gun while I call for back up." I don't live in the St. Louis area, but I'm pretty sure Wilson was by himself. You call for back up before going into a dangerous situation, not in the middle of it. The time frame between the initial confrontation and the attack of Wilson and the shooting was a short time frame and there was no place to call time out and get back up.

 

[Neutron Monster]

I'm not talking about Darren Wilson/Mike Brown, I'm talking about the hypothetical in the OP. Obviously, there wasn't really anything DW could do when MB started a confrontation immediately, nor should he have felt the need to call for backup just to tell a couple guys to walk on the sidewalk.

 

[MOpossum]

When they started talking about the Grand Jury from day one in Ferguson we were told the make up of the jury. What was the make up of the Grand Jury in New York?

 

[Neutron Monster]

I haven't seen where that was released. I know the DA said he wasn't going to release the info.

The jury was in Staten Island which is majority white.

 

[HannibalLector]

Call for backup before escalating the situation would be the optimal response to the first paragraph.
Originally posted by Neutron Monster:
I'm not talking about Darren Wilson/Mike Brown, I'm talking about the hypothetical in the OP. Obviously, there wasn't really anything DW could do when MB started a confrontation immediately, nor should he have felt the need to call for backup just to tell a couple guys to walk on the sidewalk.

The OP was obviously referring to the DW case, or I wouldn't have responded to your posts. Grrrrrrrr