Dude, I ran a database on here in the two years before district points went live on MSHSAA to give all of us on here then what it would look like. It's solid info.
The ongoing post season debate
- Thread starter USArmyMike
- Start date
No I don’t think you said that but reading your other two threads on private schools and then this thread leads me to believe that.
So where does private schools fit in to your playoff scenario?
How they do now only cap at 3 classes instead of 2. Should we separate them so we can watch the same 3 public schools when state every year?
I’m not sure why some are pretending big blowouts don’t happen every single week of the year. Why does it all of a sudden matter in week 10?
Deal but you need to prove the player was given an alternate set of standards for admittance into the school
Or why some pretend this is the only point being made to modify the current System.
It's literally what you propose. Removing 1st round district games in a statewide reseeded bracket that puts excessive travel burdens on many teams and their fans for potentially multiple games.
Oh wait, you are adding nearly worthless games for half (or nearly half) the class that don't qualify for the postseason. The teams that shouldn't risk injury to participants so their winter/spring sports seasons aren't ruined.
Yeah ending on Thanksgiving and disrupting a National Holiday is the most ignorant and Dumb thing ever. Huge College Games/NFL in that window as well. The Finals the week after are great.
No one is getting a ribbon they are getting a chance to compete. Huge Difference.
And how you correlate High School Football Participation numbers decreasing on a weak(pun intended) 10 district game is beyond the Pale!!!
Do you really think anyone is buying that a Possible Student athlete is not going out for Football because of the Chance to upset the Number 1 seed in week 10? That's your argument? Do you know how bogus that Sounds?
I can picture your delusion now Johnny possible football player Telling his Coach " Hey I was gonna come out and play but you know there is a Chance we might be the last seed this year, even though we haven't played a game, and no way do I want to face the Number One Seed in the playoffs so thanks but no thanks coach"
Participation is Down because football his hard and violent and a lot of kids don't enjoy the grind. They have a ton of other avenues to take up their time that are easier and KUSHY...... Streaming Services, Video Games, Tik TOK, Insta Gram, twitter, Facebook, P*** Hub etc.
I get it you want to exercise overt control and try and Micro Manage the Play off system so the Teams you want to advance are matched up in a way that you believe will make that happen every team rising to the Level that is palatable to your taste and view point...... as opposed to teams playing and deciding the outcome on the Field in actual competition.
I find it interesting that your Avenue to more Participation in the Sport overall is playing less and competing less and actually participating in Less games during the course of a season and ultimately a Players Career!
I guess this is how your conversation would go with your Players...." Hey I want all of you to work as hard as other Schools in the weight room, go to Camps, show up to summer work outs, 7 on 7 etc. just like the better teams in our districts and as A reward because you Know your not as talented you get to play less games and not worry about competing for a district title, Sound GOOD now lets go to work for those 9 games only, or some sham Wk 10 game versus another lesser team orchestrated to make us feel better emotionally!!!!"
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And there it is. You prefer a playoff system based on, not merit or fairness, but convenience.
You talked some about fairness so let’s go here. So you think it a system that places 2 of the top 4 teams in the class is fair? Or those seniors on one of those teams, that worked their asses off, only to not even make it to the playoffs because of convenience.
Now let’s hit on this “excessive travel”. My system actually REDUCES travel. Have you even seen some the the districts? Clearly you haven’t. Some have trips of 3+ hours. How many games the last 2 weeks had 4 to 5 hour trips? Would you like me to make a list to show you how ridiculous that statement was.
My system:
1. Rewards the better teams during the regular season.
2. Reduces travel
3. Places merit over convenience
4. Reduces # of games to determine champion. This is one the most violent games in the world. I’ve seen this absolutely destroy people who have had sons with traumatic brain or catastrophic injuries.
5. Doesn’t exclude ANYONE. Playoff selections are still based on RESULTS on the field.
6. It eliminates unnecessary games against over match opponents. Will there still be blows out. Yes there will. That can’t be removed. But this at least reduces opportunities for injury and saves programs the embarrassment of having to withdraw.
Last I do think the formula needs to be adjusted some. The SOS needs to be valued more and playing up should be 5 points per class instead of 10.
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Cool story bro. You literally type out a whole essay attacking me. Go give yourself a pat on the back. 🤣🤣🤣
I love how people like you defend the current system under the sham that “everyone gets a chance” when in reality it’s simple the most convenient system you can time of.
So instead of wasting so much effort into attacking my “intelligence”. Maybe offer some actual talking points.
Or better yet. How about to go to these schools like Kearny, Marquette, Mid-Buchanan, or Savannah that the reward of making the playoffs really doesn’t matter because convenience is far more important than merit.
So by the standard of your proposal you think it will reduce the chance of injury. Why stop at removing a single round of the playoffs? You poo pooed the notion that your proposal is not like the '70s and '80s point system, yet champion less contact chances in this violent sport. I really don't understand what point you are trying to make there. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too so to speak.
Yes, there are 'districts of death'. I'm very aware of these as Macon has been a part of one at least 3 times in recent memory, 2010, 2011 and this very season. While that may seem unfair, the opportunity is still there to take care of business on the field, on fields much closer to home than in a reseeded statewide bracket. Guess what? If all of these teams are truly worthy they will still have to meet up shortly down the road.
Further point on travel. Yes there are districts that have some longer road trips due to circumstances beyond control due to school size and geography within classifications. There's no getting around that in the current system nor yours, unless you have solved some worm hole equation Einstein couldn't. There are no districts that have 3+ hour trips unless you are referring to round trips. Your system would lead to longer road trips due to the fact you are simply combining adjacent districts that currently exist and halving them. If you can't see that then geography isn't your friend
You said "Reduces # of games to determine champion" as in plural. That's false. It reduces a single game for half the field, while the other half still plays a game that is meaningless. Again by your risk of injury position, why do that?
Ridiculous statements. I find it funny and sad at the same time you went here. ITT you have one poster who has come to help defend your position to this point. I have many more who feel the same as I do, leave the current system as is. Is it perfect? Hell no. Is it better than any previous system to determine a champion? By leaps and bounds yes.
I notice you didn't retouch your attack on my South Shelby statement. I'm taking that as you acknowledge I have the data to back it up. I'll still pull out the old computer and do that for you at my convenience but I probably can do it easier with an example from any year in the MSHSAA archives. All I have to find to disprove your statement is a single team with a winning record not in the top 32 teams of a Class 1-4 school. I used 2011/12 South Shelby as my example due to how far they made it down the playoff road.
You actually think if the bracket is seeded just the way you want it guarantees they will get their 'just reward' and advance to the proper round? What a load of camel dung. You are all over the place ITT. Why don't you call it a day and punt this one sport.
So having a Computer Point system based on biased Human input that eliminates teams based on those factors is Fairer than Teams actually playing games on the Field and deciding the outcome in that manner?
You seem to really be hung up on the Fact that sometimes districts are supposedly loaded with the best teams.... and that something can and should be done. But what you don't see is that is just pure speculation based on opinions and Human Fallacy. Sure some districts are always going to be good team heavy it's just the nature of the beast it all works it's way out in the Wash in the next round. You seemed overly concerned that some Johnny or Joey is going to suffer some overt emotional pain because they got eliminated in the District finals while some other Joey or John enjoys some emotional upturn because they win a district title because the Powers that Be can't Move the Chess Pieces around the Board as they see fit to make sure this or that team moves one more round forward.
I didn't attack you or your intellect.... I was pointing out the Flawed view point you clearly have. And using Analogy to make that point.
I don't disagree with you that Football Participation is on the Decline. I 100% disagree that playing a 10th game versus the one seed in the district is the Reason for Player Participation being reduced at all. That very Idea carries no weight.
I actually did point out some talking points... The real reasons why football participation is down. How your Logic of Blaming the downfall Of Football Participation on a 10th game versus a number one seed is Laughable and and Can't by any measure of standard be factual data. I also pointed out that no one is getting a Ribbon just a chance to compete.
I also made a talking point out of the Fact you seem to be in favor of some Complicated and Convoluted system of eliminating teams per Biased Human Numbers and then compounding the issues with Cross brackets to try and fix some perceived error in the system that has this or that team eliminated a game to early. As opposed to just playing games and letting the Winners advance and the Losers go home. Simple, Efficient and Fair.
You seem to really be hung up on the Fact that sometimes districts are supposedly loaded with the best teams.... and that something can and should be done. But what you don't see is that is just pure speculation based on opinions and Human Fallacy. Sure some districts are always going to be good team heavy it's just the nature of the beast it all works it's way out in the Wash in the next round. You seemed overly concerned that some Johnny or Joey is going to suffer some overt emotional pain because they got eliminated in the District finals while some other Joey or John enjoys some emotional upturn because they win a district title because the Powers that Be can't Move the Chess Pieces around the Board as they see fit to make sure this or that team moves one more round forward.
I didn't attack you or your intellect.... I was pointing out the Flawed view point you clearly have. And using Analogy to make that point.
I don't disagree with you that Football Participation is on the Decline. I 100% disagree that playing a 10th game versus the one seed in the district is the Reason for Player Participation being reduced at all. That very Idea carries no weight.
I actually did point out some talking points... The real reasons why football participation is down. How your Logic of Blaming the downfall Of Football Participation on a 10th game versus a number one seed is Laughable and and Can't by any measure of standard be factual data. I also pointed out that no one is getting a Ribbon just a chance to compete.
I also made a talking point out of the Fact you seem to be in favor of some Complicated and Convoluted system of eliminating teams per Biased Human Numbers and then compounding the issues with Cross brackets to try and fix some perceived error in the system that has this or that team eliminated a game to early. As opposed to just playing games and letting the Winners advance and the Losers go home. Simple, Efficient and Fair.
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@MGHS and @Cards1968 your points are laughable at best. I have been on this board for over 20 years and it easy to see why it has declined. Most of you don't offer anything other than insults and repeat the same points over and over and over like a child. Then you pin point a specific point someone else made by amplify and exaggerating it. For example @MGHS stated above that I am blaming the decline of participation on 1 seed vs a bottom seed. Nope, didn't do that. You spun that with the intent to discredit the point. That wasn't my logic at all but you claim so in order to suggest to others I'm an idiot. Good job, I'm sure you got a few to buy in. My suggestion is simply a small part to reduce unnecessary injuries in order to redirect and grow the sport.
I will admit you all do a very good job of teaming up and isolating posters you disagree with.
But hey keep supporting a system that isn't any better than the one it replaced.
I will admit you all do a very good job of teaming up and isolating posters you disagree with.
But hey keep supporting a system that isn't any better than the one it replaced.
I've been on this board since July of 2001.... So that and a Dime will get you a cup of coffee.
I have not insulted you on a personal level. That is just pure deflection on your part, stop claiming tht the deconstruction of your flawed points is a personal attack
I have not insulted you on a personal level. That is just pure deflection on your part, stop claiming tht the deconstruction of your flawed points is a personal attack
You are the one that can't stop from personally attacking other posters be it me or others...... it's ironic you don't see it.
People easily tear apart your idea's and view points and your go to MoJo is to attack the messenger as opposed to critically analyzing the opposing view point and trying to refute the opposing sides argument.
If do find it a bit hypocritical of you to say I'm full of myself when it's obvious that you are in error and a minority report proponent ..... the Majority of Posters fully admit that the current system has flaws. As all systems will have. But prefer this system to yours....
What you seem to be blind to is that the system you have proposed in it's hodge podge manner has More Con's than Pro's than the System we have in place at this time. That's the rub it has nothing to do with you Personally it has everything to do with your idea and it's flaws.
It is apparent that you have such misguided confidence in your own ability to construct a better Mouse Trap that you ignore the logical conclusions that Most people have come to in regards to which system they prefer yours or the Current one. Sorry that many astute poster is at odds with your conclusions.
But Please again tell me how I'm full of myself for pointing out basic and simple flaws in your system, while you are being humble as one of the miniscule voices that see's some quality in the system you propose to fix a problem you have materialized from the ether.
People easily tear apart your idea's and view points and your go to MoJo is to attack the messenger as opposed to critically analyzing the opposing view point and trying to refute the opposing sides argument.
If do find it a bit hypocritical of you to say I'm full of myself when it's obvious that you are in error and a minority report proponent ..... the Majority of Posters fully admit that the current system has flaws. As all systems will have. But prefer this system to yours....
What you seem to be blind to is that the system you have proposed in it's hodge podge manner has More Con's than Pro's than the System we have in place at this time. That's the rub it has nothing to do with you Personally it has everything to do with your idea and it's flaws.
It is apparent that you have such misguided confidence in your own ability to construct a better Mouse Trap that you ignore the logical conclusions that Most people have come to in regards to which system they prefer yours or the Current one. Sorry that many astute poster is at odds with your conclusions.
But Please again tell me how I'm full of myself for pointing out basic and simple flaws in your system, while you are being humble as one of the miniscule voices that see's some quality in the system you propose to fix a problem you have materialized from the ether.
No one, specially not you, has torn anything apart. Your agreements are the same over and over. They are mute. I know you, and 5 other people you are are many, but you’re just loud and offer very little.
So if you believe leaving out teams with losing records as a flaw. Than so be it.
OF course I use the same Factual data over and over because it tears your view point to shreds. I get it that you don't see the flaws or that you have become so emotionally tied to your premise that you have entered a oppositional stage of denial. It is human nature at it's basic form.
Again maybe you should do some self analysis...... my post and others posts are no louder than your posts. We just have opposing view points. It is possible that you see our post's as loud because they present a Stronger factual argument than the one you present.
Again maybe you should do some self analysis...... my post and others posts are no louder than your posts. We just have opposing view points. It is possible that you see our post's as loud because they present a Stronger factual argument than the one you present.
Your grammar mistakes, such as "mute" instead of moot (which was already used properly ITT) make me think this is an elaborate troll. If so, congratulations. You got me. If not, consider proofreading before hitting post reply. It helps others take what you say more seriously.
I do give him a Pass on Grammar at the late hour he is posting.... and really it's a message board who wants to take the time to spell check and such.
I have often in haste transposed mute and moot.... much to my chagrin when someone pointed out that obvious mistake.
I do take his post serious I just don't agree with his over all thesis on the playoffs or Private vs Public.
I have often in haste transposed mute and moot.... much to my chagrin when someone pointed out that obvious mistake.
I do take his post serious I just don't agree with his over all thesis on the playoffs or Private vs Public.
How would you make SOS increase in value? It already holds the same value as ones own record. I don't think it's wise to change that balance.
In this edit of a post I already replied to we actually have some agreement believe it or not. The class multiplier has always been flawed. I need to play with it and see it's actual affect, but I like it first blush. It's certainly better than penalizing for playing down which would impact conferences negatively as a result.
You say a 3 win team doesn't deserve to be yet you have two in it? Yet a team that proved they were better than those with a winning record you left out, does that seem like a fair system?
I already showed you your system put in a team over another team that they beat rather easily in regular season, so it is not exactly based on RESULTS on the field. Points are flawed.
You did however McDonald County beat Nevada and Marshfield while Monett lost to both of those. So are the points really flawed and is it still not based on results on the field?
The original one. The class only had 4 very large districts. Only the top team based on points made it.
You state that it was based solely on how many points you beat someone by? That is not true.
Well the class multiplier may be what hurts the SOS. I don’t think penalizing teams for playing would be good at all. Maybe put a rule in place that teams can’t play down with a team more than half its population, unless it’s a private school.
I think when you look at class 5 & 6 the points seem to be more correct based on records and SOS.
Can you correct me then because I’m pretty sure it was the plus or minus up to 13 point system that was used up until the current district set up.
The one prior to the current system was a 4 team district in which the top team advanced, after playing each other round robin the last 3 weeks of the regular season. A maximum of 13 points was added/subtracted each week to a running point total during district play. It was used only as a tie breaker, in the event that two or more teams were tied at 2-1 or 1-2. That playoff system was used starting in 1988.
The initial playoff system, beginning in 1968, was based on a point system that figured in W/L and strength of schedule. It was before my time, so I am no expert on it. I know that it severely punished teams that had a great record but poor schedule. That is where the biggest gripes occured.
The previous one had 2 teams come out of districts when they added the cross district game before sectionals.
Would like to correct one point here. When they changed to top two in the district advance to the state playoffs at the end of the 4 team districts system that was the catalyst to change to our current system. Too many district winners were ousted in the 2nd round on rematches.
Yes. Forgot about that. Was that only used for 2 years? That was the first attempt to appease the "couldn't get out of my district but still think I might be a state champion crowd."
Correct. Happened in 2010 and 2011. Centralia fans sure were salty in 2010 when we went vanilla in the first match-up and lost by 3 only to get steam rolled in the rematch 2 weeks later.
