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Should third place games be eliminated by the MSHSAA

M

metro-dude

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2004
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Class 4 --Third place

Jeff City Helias-----63---Helias lost to Lafayette St. Joes in the semi-finals but came to play the third place game against Sikeston--I've gotta ask How did the Helias coaching staff " motivate their players "after being defeated by Lafayette St. Joes in the semi-finals? ( 68-51 )

Sikeston-------------51---The Bulldogs did not play their normal game after the overtime loss to Vashon. ( 69-66 )
How did the Sikeston coaching staff " Motivate their player " for the third place game with Jeff City Helias?

I have been reading comment from " semo.com ". It appears a few Sikeston fans did not take the loss to Vashon very well. They are calling Vashon---Vashon community college and Vashon State. I find this very disturbing because Tony Irons and his Vashon coaching staff did not break any MSHSAA rules. I also find it odd that the Sikeston posters made few if any references to their third place game loss to Helias.

Class 5--Third place

SLUH--------------21-10 ( 70 )
Lees Summit-----28-3 ( 67 )

St. Louis University High coached by Ewin Claggett had his team ready to play. Lees Summit was a big favorite but Coach Claggett wanted this game very bad and challenged his players to win for his seniors and to close out the 2016 season with a win.

Lees Summit was undefeated coming in to the class 5 final four but Springfield Kickapoo was determined to meet St. Louis Chaminade in the finals. This was a major " Let Down ' for Lees Summit but there was one game remaining to close out their season and that was against Ewin Claggett and his SLUH Bills. I have a feeling the Bills had their eye on this third place game for the last week since it would be near impossible to defeat one of the best high school teams in Missouri history in the semi-finals. ( Chaminade )
 
I think it's a meaningless game. I understand why they have it so teams can get two games on the big stage, but when it's all said and done, it's meaningless. Can you imagine if the NCAA tournament had a third place game? How on earth do you motivate your team to play in it? Sikeston was clearly the second best team in Class 4 and one free throw away from being state champs. But they had no interest in playing that third place game. However some teams just enjoy the experience, are happy to be there, and love to get to play the extra game. So take it for what it is. I put no stock in it. It's just a game for the fans and a chance to get everybody on the team into the game. Basically a glorified scrimmage.
 
Vashon might not have broken any rules, but the fact that something like that is permissible is ridiculous. Vashon returned two players from the prior year. Living in an actual school district is irrelevant only in STL and KC. Two sets of rules is unfair no matter how you spin it.
 
I don't put much weight in the third-place game In class 5, The number 1 (Chaminade) and number 2 (Kickapoo) teams were in the championship game. But the number 3 team in class 5 was easily Lee Summit. They just didn't come to play in the third-place game.
 
Bucket Lover said:
I think it's a meaningless game. I understand why they have it so teams can get two games on the big stage, but when it's all said and done, it's meaningless. Can you imagine if the NCAA tournament had a third place game? How on earth do you motivate your team to play in it? Sikeston was clearly the second best team in Class 4 and one free throw away from being state champs. But they had no interest in playing that third place game. However some teams just enjoy the experience, are happy to be there, and love to get to play the extra game. So take it for what it is. I put no stock in it. It's just a game for the fans and a chance to get everybody on the team into the game. Basically a glorified scrimmage.
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Let me try and understand this. Sikeston was so devastated by the loss to Vashon they just didn't care about the 3rd place game. They were happy to end their season with back to back losses? That doesn't say much about those kids and their coaches. Only two teams end the season with a win, one will end the season with two consecutive losses, I want to end my season with a win.
 
rocketsbro said:
Vashon might not have broken any rules, but the fact that something like that is permissible is ridiculous. Vashon returned two players from the prior year. Living in an actual school district is irrelevant only in STL and KC. Two sets of rules is unfair no matter how you spin it.
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Rocket, here is the number and email to address high school sports issues---The man in charge is Dr. Kerwin Urhann ( Former Superintdent of schools in Portageville, Missouri )-------Tele. 573-875-4880----Email---@mshsaa.org.

I talked with Dr. Urhann last summer concerning the Vashon issues. I ask if Madison Prep closes their high school, could the Madison Prep students enroll @ Vashon? Dr. Urhann really did not want to talk about hypothetical. He also stated school districts should monitor themselves with hopes they will be honorable. I did not call the MSHSAA to file a complaint, I called because I want to know the rules for enrollment in the St. Louis Public schools. Swishmeyer give me the heads up on Tony Irons getting the coaching position @ Vashon during the class 4 final four last year.

There appears to be a rule stating students can live with a relative in another district without paying tuition but the relative must provide health care, food, clothing and other necessities. I'm not sure how this relates to playing on sports teams. May be someone could clarify " The Living with a relative " thing.

Rocket, you and I know not all high schools in Missouri are honorable.
 
Thatch was playing injured for the Helias game. He hit the floor pretty hard at the end of the Vashon game, and injured his back. Not an excuse, but they were completely deflated by the Vashon loss. They weren't trying to lose the game, but they just didn't have the energy.

Hats off to Helias. They have a fine team.
 
I'm aware of that metro, but it doesn't make it right. AND, MSHSAA is a sorry excuse for an association. They have been for years.
 
Pure Swing said:
Let me try and understand this. Sikeston was so devastated by the loss to Vashon they just didn't care about the 3rd place game. They were happy to end their season with back to back losses? That doesn't say much about those kids and their coaches. Only two teams end the season with a win, one will end the season with two consecutive losses, I want to end my season with a win.
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Pure Swing, I agree with everything you stated in your post. The motivation for the third place game is on the coaches. I'm sure Helias was devastated by not playing in the championship game but it appears they were angry and took it out on Sikeston.

I am in favor of keeping the third place game.
 
rocketsbro said:
Thatch was playing injured for the Helias game. He hit the floor pretty hard at the end of the Vashon game, and injured his back. Not an excuse, but they were completely deflated by the Vashon loss. They weren't trying to lose the game, but they just didn't have the energy.

Hats off to Helias. They have a fine team.
Click to expand...
Rocketsbro, Anyone who makes excuses for a lose, there are always answers in opposition. Class 4 district 4--The top seed was @Westminister 20-6 and the second seed was Parkway West 23-6. Both teams played with injuries. Westminister was playing without their top player Aaron Cook 6'2" ( 22.1 PPG )point guard, going to SIU-C on a full basketball scholarship.
Parkway West was playing without their 2nd best player Nick Lathrop 6'6", 9. 7 PPG and 6.5 Reb, per game. I have never heard of anyone from these schools complaining about losing because of injuries. Anyone can use the " Blame Game for a lose " but Parkway West and Westminister didn't.

Could Sikeston defeat Parkway West or Westminister @ full strength?
 
I think you guys are reading a little too much into this. You asked for reasons and they were provided. Now that they were provided, you call them excuses. It's got to be one or the other, guys.

Sikeston prepared for Vashon and came up short...hats off to Vashon. Then, less than 24 hours, they had to get ready to play a good Helias team. Helias played well and beat Sikeston. With that said...the kids and the coaches have pride. For Pure Swing to suggest they don't shows his ignorance of the Sikeston program. I realize Helias had to play in less than 24 hours too, but their game was NO WHERE as intense or physical as was Sikeston's game. I would wager that if Sikeston would play Helias in a regular season game that Sikeston would prevail 9 out of 10 times. I realize that they didn't Saturday, but the circumstances were a little different. And I mean no disrespect to Helias. As bucket lover....Sikeston is clearly the second best team in Class 4.
 
Pureswing all I did was answer the question and gave my opinion. But that Sikeston team I saw play Helias was not the same team I saw play Vashon. But I do think Helias has a heck of a team. I was impressed.
 
Rocket689 said:
I think you guys are reading a little too much into this. You asked for reasons and they were provided. Now that they were provided, you call them excuses. It's got to be one or the other, guys.

Sikeston prepared for Vashon and came up short...hats off to Vashon. Then, less than 24 hours, they had to get ready to play a good Helias team. Helias played well and beat Sikeston. With that said...the kids and the coaches have pride. For Pure Swing to suggest they don't shows his ignorance of the Sikeston program. I realize Helias had to play in less than 24 hours too, but their game was NO WHERE as intense or physical as was Sikeston's game. I would wager that if Sikeston would play Helias in a regular season game that Sikeston would prevail 9 out of 10 times. I realize that they didn't Saturday, but the circumstances were a little different. And I mean no disrespect to Helias. As bucket lover....Sikeston is clearly the second best team in Class 4.
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I didn't say the players and coaches don't have any pride. Bucket Lover said Sikeston had no interest in playing the 3rd place game, I responded that if that was true, it didn't say much about the players and coaches. The only ignorance was your conclusion.
 
Rocket689 said:
I think you guys are reading a little too much into this. You asked for reasons and they were provided. Now that they were provided, you call them excuses. It's got to be one or the other, guys.

Sikeston prepared for Vashon and came up short...hats off to Vashon. Then, less than 24 hours, they had to get ready to play a good Helias team. Helias played well and beat Sikeston. With that said...the kids and the coaches have pride. For Pure Swing to suggest they don't shows his ignorance of the Sikeston program. I realize Helias had to play in less than 24 hours too, but their game was NO WHERE as intense or physical as was Sikeston's game. I would wager that if Sikeston would play Helias in a regular season game that Sikeston would prevail 9 out of 10 times. I realize that they didn't Saturday, but the circumstances were a little different. And I mean no disrespect to Helias. As bucket lover....Sikeston is clearly the second best team in Class 4.
Click to expand...
Rocket, The MSHSAA records will show Helias is the superior team played on a neutral floor. That ' Intense and Physical Thing " has no play in the Helias lose.
Sikeston appears to always have excuses when they lose. Sikeston lost three times this year, please name the lose when excuses were not used?

1. Let's take the Cape Central lose @ Cape Central---A few Sikeston fans blamed the " Orange Wall and the Rusted Rim " for the lose instead of giving credit where credit was due.

2. Let's take the Vashon lose----A few Sikeston fans called Vashon a cheat--Called Vashon ( Vashon State and Vashon Community College ) instead of giving credit to the Woverines for a well deserved win.
3. In the Helias lose------The excuses were Fred was injured, The Vashon game was Physical and Intense therefore it affected Sikeston's play against Helias. There were reasons Sikeston did not get the third place win.

I did not see the Sikeston-Helias but I have talked with people who attend the game. The reports were Helias outplayed Sikeston in every part of the game.
 
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metro-dude said:
Rocket, The MSHSAA records will show Helias is the superior team played on a neutral floor. That ' Intense and Physical Thing " has no play in the Helias lose.
Sikeston appears to always have excuses when they lose. Sikeston lost three times this year, please name the lose when excuses were not used?

1. Let's take the Cape Central lose @ Cape Central---A few Sikeston fans blamed the " Orange Wall and the Rusted Rim " for the lose instead of giving credit where credit was due.

2. Let's take the Vashon lose----A few Sikeston fans called Vashon a cheat--Called Vashon ( Vashon State and Vashon Community College ) instead of giving credit to the Woverines for a well deserved win.
3. In the Helias lose------The excuses were Fred was injured, The Vashon game was Physical and Intense therefore it affected Sikeston's play against Helias. There were reasons Sikeston did not get the third place win.

I did not see the Sikeston-Helias but I have talked with people who attend the game. The reports were Helias outplayed Sikeston in every part of the game.
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L-O-S-S. The word is loss, not lose, in the context you keep using it. I've looked at that as long as I can stand it, it is obviously not just a typo. And you were an educator?
 
I was at the Helias game. They totally outplayed Sikeston. There was no comparison at all. The score does not reflect how Helias dominated. I think it was a 19-20 point lead with just a couple minutes left.
 
metro-dude said:
Class 4 --Third place

Jeff City Helias-----63---Helias lost to Lafayette St. Joes in the semi-finals but came to play the third place game against Sikeston--I've gotta ask How did the Helias coaching staff " motivate their players "after being defeated by Lafayette St. Joes in the semi-finals? ( 68-51 )

Sikeston-------------51---The Bulldogs did not play their normal game after the overtime loss to Vashon. ( 69-66 )
How did the Sikeston coaching staff " Motivate their player " for the third place game with Jeff City Helias?

I have been reading comment from " semo.com ". It appears a few Sikeston fans did not take the loss to Vashon very well. They are calling Vashon---Vashon community college and Vashon State. I find this very disturbing because Tony Irons and his Vashon coaching staff did not break any MSHSAA rules. I also find it odd that the Sikeston posters made few if any references to their third place game loss to Helias.

Class 5--Third place

SLUH--------------21-10 ( 70 )
Lees Summit-----28-3 ( 67 )

St. Louis University High coached by Ewin Claggett had his team ready to play. Lees Summit was a big favorite but Coach Claggett wanted this game very bad and challenged his players to win for his seniors and to close out the 2016 season with a win.

Lees Summit was undefeated coming in to the class 5 final four but Springfield Kickapoo was determined to meet St. Louis Chaminade in the finals. This was a major " Let Down ' for Lees Summit but there was one game remaining to close out their season and that was against Ewin Claggett and his SLUH Bills. I have a feeling the Bills had their eye on this third place game for the last week since it would be near impossible to defeat one of the best high school teams in Missouri history in the semi-finals. ( Chaminade )
Click to expand...

Ask the Owensville Dutch Girls how they feel about playing in the 3rd place game.. They finished the season with a 'W' over StL power IWA in front of a sea of supportive fans sporting completion Orange...
Keep the 3rd place games..!
C =}~
 
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3Rfan said:
L-O-S-S. The word is loss, not lose, in the context you keep using it. I've looked at that as long as I can stand it, it is obviously not just a typo. And you were an educator?
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3Rfan, You should stop reading all post made by me if you are having problems and can't stand it any more however sometimes taking a " Deep Breath " could help your situation. I want no part of adding to your problems.
 
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The records are what they are. Sikeston had 3 losses (that's "loses" so metro can understand) this year. Our fans are just passionate enough to look for the reasons and discuss them, especially when asked what we think. We post our solicited thoughts, and everyone else loses their mind over it when it doesn't line up with what they think we ought to say. Most people only see what they want to see anyway.

If y'all want to call them excuses, then go right ahead. We couldn't care less. Most schools will never know what it's like to have as many passionate fans as we have.

Sometimes the better team does not win. Good teams have off nights. Mediocre teams sometimes play over their heads. It happens regularly in every sport. There are many reasons why a good team loses to a less good team, and all of those reasons are contributing factors.

So to recap:

1. The Cape Central loss was avenged. Cape had a very good team this year, and they always seem to step up their game when playing Sikeston. Sikeston historically does not play well at Cape's gym. The orange wall and rusted rim references were tongue in cheek. Any half wit moron could have deduced that.

2. Sikeston beat Parkway West and didn't play that great. And Sikeston never trailed in that game. So to answer the question as to whether we would beat a full strength Parkway West team or Westminster team, I would say it would be more likely than not. But the world will never know.

3. Vashon was the best Class 4 team in the state. They should be. They have the unfair yet ridiculously legal ability to draw kids from all over the city. MSHSAA sucks. It is what it is. Sikeston played them tight but didn't come out victorious. Tough breaks abound.

4. Helias had a fine team, and they caught us on a bad day. It happens. Yay Helias. Under different circumstances, we Sikeston fans believe the outcome would be different. But again, the world wil never know.

Happy Spring. Lord willing, we will see you all next year.
 
Pure Swing said:
Let me try and understand this. Sikeston was so devastated by the loss to Vashon they just didn't care about the 3rd place game. They were happy to end their season with back to back losses? That doesn't say much about those kids and their coaches. Only two teams end the season with a win, one will end the season with two consecutive losses, I want to end my season with a win.
Click to expand...
That's cute. Did you get that out of some motivational book? If you're geared up to win a state title and lose in the semis, that 3rd place game is completely and totally meaningless. Kissing your sister. Shining a turd. However you want to say it. Fans probably dig it, and I'm sure some that are just pumped about being in the Final 4, so they'll enjoy it and compete. But if this whole thing is truly about finding a state champ (which I don't really think it is), then get rid of them.
 
You will never see me paying admission to watch consolation games in any sport. Who cares?
(I like when wrestlers talk about "placing 6th" or whatever. Why stop at 6?)
Of course, the con$olation games, as boring and meaningle$$ as they may be, are not going anywhere anytime $oon.
 
Eagles_Ball said:
That's cute. Did you get that out of some motivational book? If you're geared up to win a state title and lose in the semis, that 3rd place game is completely and totally meaningless. Kissing your sister. Shining a turd. However you want to say it. Fans probably dig it, and I'm sure some that are just pumped about being in the Final 4, so they'll enjoy it and compete. But if this whole thing is truly about finding a state champ (which I don't really think it is), then get rid of them.[/QUOTE

No, that was all me, I don't need a book. "The 3rd place game is completely and totally meaningless." That statement tells me you have never coached or played in one. That experience can be a great memory for your seniors and a learning experience for you underclassmen. The high school final four isn't just about finding a state champ.
Click to expand...
 
Some of the arguments about Vashon have merit but they should have been voiced before the game, afterwords it just sounds like sour grapes. And that should not take away from the job that Tony and his staff did. They worked within the rules and restored Vashon to the top of the heap. GREAT JOB!!!! As far as STL and KC operating with different rules. Kickapoo girls got a similar advantage with transfers that got to play immediately.

I do like the idea of keeping the third place games /
 
Three quarters as a coach. Never the Final 4. Still doesn't change my thought process. We differ in thoughts. But as I said...if you're goal is to win a title, the 3rd place game is meaningless. If you're happy just being there and getting the whole experience, then yes, it probably means something. And I agree, as it's done now, it really isn't about just getting a state champ.
 
Why don't the ask the players and coaches what they want?

I suspect a lot of them wish they didn't have to play the game.
 
why take the last game away from the seniors? they earned the right to play 2 games, and if you cant get out of bed and want to win, then thats your personal problem, and not the team that got up and said lets finish the year with a win
 
Seems to me that, as a player, if you can't get motivated to play hard in one last game with your teammates, against a good opponent, in Mizzou Arena, then you might have a problem.
 
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EdmundBlackadder said:
Seems to me that, as a player, if you can't get motivated to play hard in one last game with your teammates, against a good opponent, in Mizzou Arena, then you might have a problem.
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If you just lost your chance to win the title you've been dreaming of for 4 years of HS, you might not be as excited.

I'm sure some people love one more chance, but others feel like the dream is already over.
 
I find some of these posts to be comedic in nature; who ACTUALLY goes to state wishing to play in a 3rd place game? The players and coaches ARE NOT ROBOTS!!! If you play in a semifinal game that ends in heartbreak, you aren't going to just wake up and say, "Hey, that game is over, let's win the next one." Do you really think Sikeston was focused on playing Helias after losing an overtime game to Vashon 69-66? Do you really think that Lees Summit was focused on SLUH after losing to Kickapoo 12 hours prior? We have posters saying that something must be wrong with the players if they are not ready to play a 3rd place game and something must be wrong if a coach if he can't motivate a team to "get up" for a 3rd place game. Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, PLEASE!!! If that is your opinion then you haven't lost something that you wanted more than anything in your life.

The 3rd place game only benefits the team that gets blasted in a semifinal game because they wake up believing that "We are better than that" and "We have one last chance to show people how good we are and that we belong." MSHSAA doesn't even take the game seriously because how can you have teams on less than 12 hours of rest and preparation play a 3rd place game. A team may finish a loss at 9pm on Thursday night and have to play the 3rd place game on Friday at noon, that's a joke! If MSHSAA was really serious about the 3rd place game, they would play it right before the championship game in their class. If not for repercussions from the school district and MSHSAA, I can almost guarantee teams would pass on playing a 3rd place game. Also, for the record, if Sikeston would have played Helias in ANY OTHER SETTING besides the 3rd place game, they would have beat them by 15-20 points EASILY.
 
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EdmundBlackadder said:
Seems to me that, as a player, if you can't get motivated to play hard in one last game with your teammates, against a good opponent, in Mizzou Arena, then you might have a problem.
Click to expand...

Most of the senior players from Sikeston, Helias, SLUH and Lees Summit will never play another minute of organized basketball therefore I can't believe these players would not want to play one last game before ending their basketball career. I want all of you out there to go back and remember taking off your high school basketball uniform for the last time. I'm betting you will never forget that day, I can still remember. For anyone to tell me they did not want to play a third place game @ the University of Missouri is unbelievable.

Yes indeed, 20 years from now some players from Sikeston, Helias, SLUH and Lees Summit will be telling their kids, I played in a third place game in the final four my senior year but I really did not want to play because we lost in the semi-finals. What will your kid think of you now?
 
Hazelwood West Basketball said:
I find some of these posts to be comedic in nature; who ACTUALLY goes to state wishing to play in a 3rd place game? The players and coaches ARE NOT ROBOTS!!! If you play in a semifinal game that ends in heartbreak, you aren't going to just wake up and say, "Hey, that game is over, let's win the next one." Do you really think Sikeston was focused on playing Helias after losing an overtime game to Vashon 69-66? Do you really think that Lees Summit was focused on SLUH after losing to Kickapoo 12 hours prior? We have posters saying that something must be wrong with the players if they are not ready to play a 3rd place game and something must be wrong if a coach if he can't motivate a team to "get up" for a 3rd place game. Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, PLEASE!!! If that is your opinion then you haven't lost something that you wanted more than anything in your life.

The 3rd place game only benefits the team that gets blasted in a semifinal game because they wake up believing that "We are better than that" and "We have one last chance to show people how good we are and that we belong." MSHSAA doesn't even take the game seriously because how can you have teams on less than 12 hours of rest and preparation play a 3rd place game. A team may finish a loss at 9pm on Thursday night and have to play the 3rd place game on Friday at noon, that's a joke! If MSHSAA was really serious about the 3rd place game, they would play it right before the championship game in their class. If not for repercussions from the school district and MSHSAA, I can almost guarantee teams would pass on playing a 3rd place game. Also, for the record, if Sikeston would have played Helias in ANY OTHER SETTING besides the 3rd place game, they would have beat them by 15-20 points EASILY.
Click to expand...

Last year Chaminade had to come back the next day and play for 3rd. Maybe Sikeston should have followed their example.
 
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