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Sanitizing history

wcfanfourever

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2005
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Alba, Mo
12 United States presidents and almost all of the founding fathers owned slaves .

Are we now going to remove all portraits statues and their images off of our currency nationwide so we can be politically correct
George Washington owned 317 slaves while he was president aunt Shirley he must be the first to go
 
God forbid someone draws a line between someone who fought to create our country and someone who fought to destroy our country, especially when a lot of those mementos were put up for less than honorable reasons.

George Washington didn't fight to free America so he could keep owning slaves. He fought for liberty of the common man. Jefferson Davis, et al made sure millions suffered and hundreds of thousands died basically to keep slavery. There is not a moral equivalence here, and people on the right are brain-dead when they pretend that there is one. Many people on the right, to their credit, do not pretend this is the case.

I'm sympathetic to keeping expressions of remembrance for war dead, or at least keeping it in history museums. I'm not very sympathetic about keeping public monuments for Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee, who are the biggest traitors in the history of the United States. It is weird that these still exist. Cities and states should not be in the business of honoring individuals for their service in the Confederacy.

It's especially distasteful when you realize how many of these monuments were put up in the Jim Crow era as a middle finger to black people and not as some sincere remembrance of the dead.
 
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The only difference between Washington and Robert E. Lee was Washington won.

Why is Lee a traitor and Washington a hero when they both fought an overbearing, tryannical govt?
 
The only difference between Washington and Robert E. Lee was Washington won.

Why is Lee a traitor and Washington a hero when they both fought an overbearing, tryannical govt?
This is out and out embarrassing. It's absurd that many draw this equivalence.

By this logic, what is the difference between MLK and David Duke? Both advocate for different government policy. Neither take up arms against the government.

God forbid we judge people for their motives. The core motive for the existence of the Confederacy is grotesque.
 
God forbid someone draws a line between someone who fought to create our country and someone who fought to destroy our country, especially when a lot of those mementos were put up for less than honorable reasons.

George Washington didn't fight to free America so he could keep owning slaves. He fought for liberty of the common man. Jefferson Davis, et al made sure millions suffered and hundreds of thousands died basically to keep slavery. There is not a moral equivalence here, and people on the right are brain-dead when they pretend that there is one. Many people on the right, to their credit, do not pretend this is the case.

I'm sympathetic to keeping expressions of remembrance for war dead, or at least keeping it in history museums. I'm not very sympathetic about keeping public monuments for Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee, who are the biggest traitors in the history of the United States. It is weird that these still exist. Cities and states should not be in the business of honoring individuals for their service in the Confederacy.

It's especially distasteful when you realize how many of these monuments were put up in the Jim Crow era as a middle finger to black people and not as some sincere remembrance of the dead.
No no no this isn't it all about the Civil War it's about the evils of slavery
 
This is out and out embarrassing. It's absurd that many draw this equivalence.

By this logic, what is the difference between MLK and David Duke? Both advocate for different government policy. Neither take up arms against the government.

God forbid we judge people for their motives. The core motive for the existence of the Confederacy is grotesque.

You didn't answer the question.
 
You didn't answer the question.
God forbid we judge people for their motives. The core motive for the existence of the Confederacy is grotesque.

This is the answer.

George Washington fought for people who had no voice in Parliament and were oppressively taxed. Robert E. Lee fought to protect slavery.

People who took up arms for the Confederacy inherently fought for evil. We should not commemorate them for doing so. We can remember loss without celebrating its leaders.

The Confederates are not inherently comparable to the Colonialists.

There are lots of good examples of this in the world - people who fought for Ho Chi Minh should be remembered differently than people who fought for Pol Pot.
 
With this incredible logic.....

I'm absolutely shocked Germany has no statues of Hitler at Holocaust sites. How dare they remove such things!!!!
 
God forbid we judge people for their motives. The core motive for the existence of the Confederacy is grotesque.

This is the answer.

George Washington fought for people who had no voice in Parliament and were oppressively taxed. Robert E. Lee fought to protect slavery.

People who took up arms for the Confederacy inherently fought for evil. We should not commemorate them for doing so. We can remember loss without celebrating its leaders.

The Confederates are not inherently comparable to the Colonialists.

There are lots of good examples of this in the world - people who fought for Ho Chi Minh should be remembered differently than people who fought for Pol Pot.

So if someone fights for something you agree with, they are right and if they fight for something you disagree with they are wrong?

Washington owned more slaves than Lee.
 
So if someone fights for something you agree with, they are right and if they fight for something you disagree with they are wrong?

Washington owned more slaves than Lee.
Morals are subjective, but we generally agree as a people that individual freedom and representation in government are worthy causes and slavery is a bad one.

Without these sorts of judgments, we are morally bankrupt and lost as a society. What is the foundation for our society and our government if not our shared morals? What makes us different from Stalinists, the Aztecs, etc.? Our commitment to democracy and freedom.

You cannot be daft enough to think Washington is worse than Lee because he owned more slaves. Their lives are defined by so much more than that.
 
It says a lot about how the world and the Republican party has evolved that my argument was the de facto conservative R position on these things for decades. Are we the shining city on a hill or not?

This is part of the rot that Trumpism is bringing into the R party. We should not be ceding our moral leadership in the world to Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping.
 
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Morals are subjective, but we generally agree as a people that individual freedom and representation in government are worthy causes and slavery is a bad one.

Without these sorts of judgments, we are morally bankrupt and lost as a society. What is the foundation for our society and our government if not our shared morals? What makes us different from Stalinists, the Aztecs, etc.? Our commitment to democracy and freedom.

You cannot be daft enough to think Washington is worse than Lee because he owned more slaves. Their lives are defined by so much more than that.

You obviously don't respect Lee for the honorable solder and brilliant tactician that he was, fair enough.
 
You obviously don't respect Lee for the honorable solder and brilliant tactician that he was, fair enough.
This is 100% missing the point. We don't honor capable works for bad causes. We don't build a statue to John Wayne Gacy for being really, really good at murdering teenage boys.

The statues to Lee are there because of his role as a leader of a traitorous movement with a wholly immoral cause that is antithetical to our guiding principles as a nation. The government should not be in the business of honoring that.

If the Army wants to study what he did at West Point, great, learn from his works. Respect his skills in that setting. Honor his strong service in the Mexican War in the right settings. But don't pretend he's a national hero for being a good Confederate general. He's a traitor who took up arms against our nation. It's generally shameful that he is honored by many Southern governments.
 
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Why is he a traitor and Washington isn't ?
Both are traitors to something, but only one of them fought for a just cause.

For the 800th time in this thread, morals and context matter. Why is this so hard to concede?

The false equivalence between Washington and Lee is absurd. This is the nonsense the white nationalists push.
 
Because he WON.

If the British would have won he would have been executed for being a traitor .

One mans hero is another mans traitor
 
Washington fought for liberty and freedom. Lee fought for slavery. You don't see the difference?

Sure do. Im not arguing that.

Just cannot figure out why Washington was a slave owner and is a hero to NM, while Lee fought to keep slavery alive and he is horrible.

Looks like they both were horrible regarding slavery.
 
Because he WON.

If the British would have won he would have been executed for being a traitor .

One mans hero is another mans traitor
We celebrate lots of losers who fought for just causes. And we damn plenty of winners. Stalin isn't exactly a beloved figure by historians and people with Western morals.
 
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Sure do. Im not arguing that.

Just cannot figure out why Washington was a slave owner and is a hero to NM, while Lee fought to keep slavery alive and he is horrible.

Looks like they both were horrible regarding slavery.
Surely you don't need me to explain this, but I will anyway.

We should primarily commemorate people by their primary purpose and actions. Almost everyone has done bad things and made bad decisions at some point in their life. That is not the relevant standard for reverence.

Robert E Lee fails because his core public action in the US was the defense of slavery.

Washington is a hero because his core actions were to lead our nation into freedom and then to serve ably as its first democratic leader.

Nixon is a great example of how this test works. His failure with Watergate outweighs his other actions as a leader. His core public role was his participation in a national disgrace.
 
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The other consideration is what are the commemorations for. Lee's are generally there in bad faith as commemoration of the Confederacy. Washington's are generally there in good faith as mementos of the just creation of our nation, and some of them account for his failings.
 
I'd also like to say that the subject of the first post is detached from the discussion in here. This is not about sanitizing history. History remains well debated and reviewed. It is about asking what the government should revere.
 
With this incredible logic.....

I'm absolutely shocked Germany has no statues of Hitler at Holocaust sites. How dare they remove such things!!!!

Germany has an entire museum of Hitler and his history!
The purpose is to remind future generations of Germans how they lost their way. THEY don't hide from their past but rather embrace it (not its philosophies though).
In America, we want to "cleanse" ourselves of any memory of what we were. Shame on us....I mean you.
 
Germany has an entire museum of Hitler and his history!
The purpose is to remind future generations of Germans how they lost their way. THEY don't hide from their past but rather embrace it (not its philosophies though).
In America, we want to "cleanse" ourselves of any memory of what we were. Shame on us....I mean you.
You are a special sort of stupid.... aren't you?

You just argued and made my point. Congrats! They have MUSEUMS to LEARN FROM. They don't have statues in the very areas the atrocities occurred. Again....thanks for making my point.

Oh yeah....they also are jailed (and typically beaten) if they do anything like your friends in Charlottesville did.
 
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Sure do. Im not arguing that.

Just cannot figure out why Washington was a slave owner and is a hero to NM, while Lee fought to keep slavery alive and he is horrible.

Looks like they both were horrible regarding slavery.
I just told you why...
 
You are a special sort of stupid.... aren't you?

You just argued and made my point. Congrats! They have MUSEUMS to LEARN FROM. They don't have statues in the very areas the atrocities occurred. Again....thanks for making my point.

Oh yeah....they also are jailed (and typically beaten) if they do anything like your friends in Charlottesville did.
You ever been in the Capitol building in DC????? Its plum full of statues of everyone from Bobby Lee and Jefferson Davis to Rosa Parks right across the room. Its our history people and these great individuals are part of it
 
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You ever been in the Capitol building in DC????? Its plum full of statues of everyone from Bobby Lee and Jefferson Davis to Rosa Parks right across the room. Its our history people and these great individuals are part of it
You mean that area that is essentially a museum of the United States? So again..... the best area for things such as this.
 
You ever been in the Capitol building in DC????? Its plum full of statues of everyone from Bobby Lee and Jefferson Davis to Rosa Parks right across the room. Its our history people and these great individuals are part of it
There is talk of removing them too.
 
You ever been in the Capitol building in DC????? Its plum full of statues of everyone from Bobby Lee and Jefferson Davis to Rosa Parks right across the room. Its our history people and these great individuals are part of it
Jefferson Davis is a great individual?
 
The case for removing the Confederate monuments is simple. Tear them down because some backward racist groups revere the monuments. The other stupid group thinks our people worthless elected government shows reverence by not removing them. Who in their right minds reveres a Confederate soldier? Who in their right mind would march for keeping them? Who in their right mind would protest against them? Stay home. Neither group matters and both are idiots. Replace the sites with signs that read, STOP WASTING YOUR LIFE.
 
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There is talk of removing them too.

ISIS was a master at destroying history that they deplored.
hatra-isis.jpg


Now Leftist Democrats bring that same mindset here to America.
Thanks You Radical Leftist...
 
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ISIS was a master at destroying history that they deplored.
hatra-isis.jpg


Now Leftist Democrats bring that same mindset here to America.
Thanks You Radical Leftist...
Don't call me names unless you want to back them up Scout. I'll whip your cowardly ass. I know exactly where in Kearney to look for you.
 
Don't call me names unless you want to back them up Scout. I'll whip your cowardly ass. I know exactly where in Kearney to look for you.

Great, I haven't lived there in over 10 years.
As for calling names?

You folks on the Left are so pure.
 
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