Proposal so we don't have the same teams in the finals every year so to speak

[mofan_tigers]

We go on a 2 year cycle for enrollments.

How about if you win the state title in your class you automatically get bumped up 1 class for the next cycle.

For instance,

Say Valle wins the state in Class 1 again. They would be moved up to Class 2 next year for the next cycle of 2 years.

Now, not saying Lamar would get beat in the finals, let's say Lamar loses to Malden in the finals, then both Lamar and Malden would move to Class 3 the next cycle since they each won a state title in the past cycle.

Class 6 would be the catch all and for those who do not win a state title they just use their enrollment to place them.

Last example,

Lets say Webb City, who would be moved to Class 5 for winning Class 4 in the past cycle, then wins at least 1 state title in Class 5, they would then move to Class 6 for the next cycle. (Possible Webb City vs. CBC final) anyone want to see that??? On the hand, lets say Webb City doesn't win a state title in the 2 years as a Class 6 team, they would go back to the enrollment stage.

Just a thought, maybe someone could improve on this, thanks for reading

 

[TheDaddy]

We don't have a class 9 for Webb

 

[10=1]

Do you want your participation trophy now or later?

 

[UNCLERICO22]

Maybe all the other teams that don't make it to the state championship game. Could try to get better, and beat the "so called same teams in the finals."

That's the easiest, and most fair way to get different teams in the championship.

 

[mofan_tigers]

Yeah, typical response I thought I would get.

 

[O line wins games]

If their was more money making potential in tv viewership, I'm am pretty MSHSAA would have already done something like this lol.. I think it would make it more fun as a casual fan. Since I go watch all 7 state championship games every year, I would love it, but agree that it's not the most fair.

 

[red & black brotherhood]

With class 1 schools closing football programs or moving to 8 man teams like lamar and webb who are near the top of the classification will stay there as teams are pulled down to fill the holes in class 1

 

[UNCLERICO22]

Yeah, typical response I thought I would get.

What do you expect when you want to penalize teams for success.

Is it fair for Valle, Lamar, Webb City, and so on to have to play up 1-2-3 divisions just because they win more than 2 state championships in a row?

Seriously why penalize or handicap programs that are successful.

 

[mofan_tigers]

Oh, I didn't know those teams feared competition. "The classes don't go to class 9" sounds to me Webb City would handle CBC and Blue Spring South with ease.

Like I said, typical responses I thought I would receive. Thus we have the same ole song and dance.

It was just a thought to make things more interesting every couple of years. I do what MSHSAA does and just sleep through the state championships year in and year out because they are snoozers.

Predictions:
Valle in a snoozer
Lamar in a snoozer
Class 3 could be a game, but JB should win
Class 4 is a class 9 vs. class 4 team, so class 9 in a snoozer
Class 5 could be a game
Class 6 could be a game, but CBC should win

 

[W Card]

What do you expect when you want to penalize teams for success.

Is it fair for Valle, Lamar, Webb City, and so on to have to play up 1-2-3 divisions just because they win more than 2 state championships in a row?

Seriously why penalize or handicap programs that are successful.

Why? Because it is the (new) American way.

 

[10=1]

Oh, I didn't know those teams feared competition. "The classes don't go to class 9" sounds to me Webb City would handle CBC and Blue Spring South with ease.

Like I said, typical responses I thought I would receive. Thus we have the same ole song and dance.

It was just a thought to make things more interesting every couple of years. I do what MSHSAA does and just sleep through the state championships year in and year out because they are snoozers.

Predictions:
Valle in a snoozer
Lamar in a snoozer
Class 3 could be a game, but JB should win
Class 4 is a class 9 vs. class 4 team, so class 9 in a snoozer
Class 5 could be a game
Class 6 could be a game, but CBC should win

Why post the topic if you already knew the response?

 

[USArmyMike]

The only change I'd like to see is Class 1 go to 48 and Class 6 be the catch all.

When Districts are completed, seed the the playoff bracket based on the point system.

 

[mofan_tigers]

Guess I had higher expectations of the ones that would respond and I thought maybe, just maybe we could come to a conclusion that as a fan of HS football we could actually pit the best against the best, and have some dream matchups in the finals.

Webb City vs. CBC
Lamar vs. John Burroghs
or even if Lamar vs. Valle somehow met

Its a head slapper to see the fans of the teams that consistently go to the dome want to get out of their comfort zone of owning their certain class. Heaven forbid they have to fight for a state championship. Could it be competition scares these teams? I wouldn't think so, I mean Webb City already beats Class 6 teams (Rockhurst) so how would it not be fair to Webb?

 

[red & black brotherhood]

Wish granted. Lamar plays valle in 16 & 17

 

[10=1]

Guess I had higher expectations of the ones that would respond and I thought maybe, just maybe we could come to a conclusion that as a fan of HS football we could actually pit the best against the best, and have some dream matchups in the finals.

Webb City vs. CBC
Lamar vs. John Burroghs
or even if Lamar vs. Valle somehow met

Its a head slapper to see the fans of the teams that consistently go to the dome want to get out of their comfort zone of owning their certain class. Heaven forbid they have to fight for a state championship. Could it be competition scares these teams? I wouldn't think so, I mean Webb City already beats Class 6 teams (Rockhurst) so how would it not be fair to Webb?

CBC won by a TD last year, 31-24. I would say that was a pretty good game.
Webb City won by 4 TDs last year, but was a two score game into the 4th (Cape was actually up 14-0 after 1).
Lamar won by 2 TDs. Pretty decent game.
John Burroghs didn't even win last year.
Valle won by 3 TDs. Don't expect that on Saturday though.


I think all those teams had a pretty good fight on their hands to win. There wasn't even a turbo game.

 

[runyouover]

We go on a 2 year cycle for enrollments.

How about if you win the state title in your class you automatically get bumped up 1 class for the next cycle.

For instance,

Say Valle wins the state in Class 1 again. They would be moved up to Class 2 next year for the next cycle of 2 years.

Now, not saying Lamar would get beat in the finals, let's say Lamar loses to Malden in the finals, then both Lamar and Malden would move to Class 3 the next cycle since they each won a state title in the past cycle.

Class 6 would be the catch all and for those who do not win a state title they just use their enrollment to place them.

Last example,

Lets say Webb City, who would be moved to Class 5 for winning Class 4 in the past cycle, then wins at least 1 state title in Class 5, they would then move to Class 6 for the next cycle. (Possible Webb City vs. CBC final) anyone want to see that??? On the hand, lets say Webb City doesn't win a state title in the 2 years as a Class 6 team, they would go back to the enrollment stage.

Just a thought, maybe someone could improve on this, thanks for reading

A lot of folks are scared shirtless of change. Your idea may not be perfect but it would absolutely promote more competitive championship games. The same teams are making it to the big game year after year. Is that what HS sports is intended to be?

If you pull out the private schools and put them in two classes for playoffs, and eliminate a class or two for public schools you might achieve the desired result.

 

[Hawgs and Pigskins]

The new American way....let's punish, penalize and handicap anyone or any organization that finds success. How about the teams that don't make it take long look at what successful teams do. It's not complicated, but it's not easy. I've witnessed what happens when a less than average team (Kearney pre 2001) dedicates themselves year round to a goal.

GO KEARNEY!!!!

Cheering for all the KC Area teams as well!!!

 

[W Card]

1.) The only change I'd like to see is Class 1 go to 48 and Class 6 be the catch all.
2.) When Districts are completed, seed the the playoff bracket based on the point system.

1.) I would be in favor of this "change", only I would make Class 1, 32 teams. There is currently a greater disparity by percentage in enrollment delta in Class 1 than in Class 6. There is a diminishing return as enrollment numbers increase in a school's ability to field a quality football team.
2.) Not totally against this but there will inevitably be a horde of folks complaining about how they got the shaft with the point system. Also there are multiple things to consider including travel expenses, especially for the small schools.

 

[cardsbeatwriter]

While we all like to talk football around here you need to remember first and foremost extracurricular activities are for the benefit and enjoyment of the student athletes, not to entertain you.

Let's take the WC's and Lamars out of this. Do you really want to take an opportunity away from a sophomore at a small class 3 school to potentially play for a title his senior year because his classmates won two years prior and while competitive in class 3 with 350 kids is completely out matched in the class 4 playoffs against schools with 1000 enrollment?

 

[Nwalls]

The one comment that schools need to just get better is not possible.
I have coached high school football for 29 years most schools priority
is not having a great football team. Valle Lamar Webb John Burroughs and
a few others have huge support where football is important to the community.
They have huge turn outs for football when the national average has a lot
less boys playing. So those programs will always dominate it is important
to the community and they invest in it not typical in most towns. Good for
them that football success is important and they have what the real reason
for a school is an education. I have been involved in a couple of district
championships it was fun but at the end of the day it means nothing what
matters are your players better people for having played winning doesn't
make a kid a better person learning character does. So 90 percent of schools
that field teams to give student athletes the chance to be part of something
positive is just as important as winning state championships.

 

[Team Tiger]

The one comment that schools need to just get better is not possible.
I have coached high school football for 29 years most schools priority
is not having a great football team. Valle Lamar Webb John Burroughs and
a few others have huge support where football is important to the community.
They have huge turn outs for football when the national average has a lot
less boys playing. So those programs will always dominate it is important
to the community and they invest in it not typical in most towns. Good for
them that football success is important and they have what the real reason
for a school is an education. I have been involved in a couple of district
championships it was fun but at the end of the day it means nothing what
matters are your players better people for having played winning doesn't
make a kid a better person learning character does. So 90 percent of schools
that field teams to give student athletes the chance to be part of something
positive is just as important as winning state championships.

At one time Webb and Lamar were door mats and had little support. Using your logic they could never build the programs they have. It take commitment from the players. More importantly commitment from players that may never see the result. There are several guys who can take credit for the success in Lamar but they never got a chance to play for a state championship. Other programs can keep making excuses or do something about.

 

[SHML]

What do you expect when you want to penalize teams for success.

Is it fair for Valle, Lamar, Webb City, and so on to have to play up 1-2-3 divisions just because they win more than 2 state championships in a row?

Seriously why penalize or handicap programs that are successful.

It's the Amercan way! Penalize success and achievement! It's not fair. Surprised it has taken this long to get in sports. Everyone wants thier participation trophy or thier fair share. Makes me sick. Let's blame someone else for your lack of success.

 

[O line wins games]

The one comment that schools need to just get better is not possible.
I have coached high school football for 29 years most schools priority
is not having a great football team. Valle Lamar Webb John Burroughs and
a few others have huge support where football is important to the community.
They have huge turn outs for football when the national average has a lot
less boys playing. So those programs will always dominate it is important
to the community and they invest in it not typical in most towns. Good for
them that football success is important and they have what the real reason
for a school is an education. I have been involved in a couple of district
championships it was fun but at the end of the day it means nothing what
matters are your players better people for having played winning doesn't
make a kid a better person learning character does. So 90 percent of schools
that field teams to give student athletes the chance to be part of something
positive is just as important as winning state championships.

I don't know where you've coached... But I've literally never heard a GOOD coach, say that winning doesn't matter.... Maybe not the most important thing, especially in high school, but it is definitely important.

 

[red & black brotherhood]

Things i learned in my 4 years in highschool(since what you learn in that building is the most important thing ever to some)

Highschool- how to conjugate a sentence and work logrithmic equations...never done either of those since

Ag/vo tech- how to build something with your own 2 hands that you can be proud of. Yup pretty useful

Football- i learned how to grind and enjoy it and how even if you work your tail of and give it your absolute best you may still fail

Good to see the required part of my high school days was the biggest waste of time and least useful. Good coaches teach you so much more than how to block and tackle

 

[LHSTiger81]

Its a head slapper to see the fans of the teams that consistently go to the dome want to get out of their comfort zone of owning their certain class. Heaven forbid they have to fight for a state championship. Could it be competition scares these teams? I wouldn't think so, I mean Webb City already beats Class 6 teams (Rockhurst) so how would it not be fair to Webb?

If you don't think these teams fight to get to the state championship, then you're even more clueless than most of us believed to begin with. You're disrespecting every team that took a loss to these teams, as well. Sounds like you're bored because nobody is paying attention to your hunger strike.

 

[wcfanfourever]

We go on a 2 year cycle for enrollments.

How about if you win the state title in your class you automatically get bumped up 1 class for the next cycle.

For instance,

Say Valle wins the state in Class 1 again. They would be moved up to Class 2 next year for the next cycle of 2 years.

Now, not saying Lamar would get beat in the finals, let's say Lamar loses to Malden in the finals, then both Lamar and Malden would move to Class 3 the next cycle since they each won a state title in the past cycle.

Class 6 would be the catch all and for those who do not win a state title they just use their enrollment to place them.

Last example,

Lets say Webb City, who would be moved to Class 5 for winning Class 4 in the past cycle, then wins at least 1 state title in Class 5, they would then move to Class 6 for the next cycle. (Possible Webb City vs. CBC final) anyone want to see that??? On the hand, lets say Webb City doesn't win a state title in the 2 years as a Class 6 team, they would go back to the enrollment stage.

Just a thought, maybe someone could improve on this, thanks for reading

Why don't we just order about 30,000 participation trophys and not even bother with playoffs, heck might as well not other with keeping score

 

[cr7707]

every mediocre team should look at at Odessa and see that with hard work and good coaching, you can turn things around pretty quick.

probably a better solution would be to take out the private schools and go to 8 classes, within each class have a competitive division and a rec division. then you could hand out big trophies for each of the 16 district winners in each class. unfortunately you would still have some teams that don't get a big trophy, you could give the juice boxes and have their parents come down and make a victory tunnel for the kids to run thru. if they still are upset, you could hire some counselors and try to build up there self esteem that way.

 

[cr7707]

another good idea would be whenever a team takes the lead in a game, the score board is automatically turned off, then when the score is tied back up, the score board comes back on.

also the winning team should not be able to smile or make eye contact with the losers after the game.

i alway though going on 2 was on the border of cheating, no more of that. obviously the naked bootleg is really uncool. how embarassing to kid that bites on that.

 

[sw5890]

I have wondered if it would be useful to move up teams that consistently succeed, but ultimately I keep coming back to the reality that it's penalizing a team for the success of previous teams and they aren't doing anything that (in theory) couldn't be done anywhere else. I'm sure it is incredibly irritating to be in a class with a perennial chamption. Or even worse, CJ and until recently Carthage, schools with very good teams that get virtually no playoff spotlight because they share a district with a team that is playing at a level far above typical class 4.

But forcing the school to move up doesn't really seem right, but perhaps you could give teams the option to move up if they want....though that could get really messy. I wonder how many teams would jump up a class to avoid Webb City! Getting moved up has worked out very well for Carthage!

One thing I would like considered is putting private schools into their own playoff class because they seem to be disproportionately represented in the dome. Maybe that is just a perception but the few times I've been there it seems like about 30-40% of the state contenders are private, though they probably account for less than 5% of total schools... this year it looks like 5 of the 14 teams (36%) are private. Maybe there is nothing wrong with that, just an observation I have made. I know MSHSAA uses the multiplier to supposedly offset the advantage that they must believe private schools have. Maybe there aren't enough private schools to even do that, it's just a thought. I've heard of this being a issue in many states.

 

[bluetiger]

Football is no different than any other sport. Look at wrestling ... the best two are rarely in the finals at state.

Although I think some things could be done to shake up classifications.

1.) I think the state needs to step in on lower enrollment schools (class 1) and try to start building 8-Man around the state. A school has 80 students, wins no games, and tries to compete in 11 man? Coop tried to help this, but it killed the possibility of building 8-Man around the whole state, not just in the NW part. Plus I think that you would see some small schools start thinking about playing 8-Man if they didn't have to travel 5 hours.

2.) Why do they break down the classifications like they do? Top 32 in Class 6? Class 5 catch all? Why not move this around or have 3 different formulas that you rotate? Why not break it down evenly like other sports?

 

[Rufus R. Jones]

I've posted this on here at least once a year since MoSports started, so here goes: I have yet to see a state title team that didn't deserve the title. And that is, and should be, the only goal of the playoffs- to determine the best team. It isn't to determine the #2-64 teams. It also isn't to match up the two best teams in the finals, or the 4 best teams in the semifinals. In fact, the two best teams may be in the same district. That's why fools every year (usually, as their team gets beat), make the comment, "Well, IMO, we just saw the state title game right there," after watching a qtrfinal or semifinal game. Hell, I've heard people say it in the round of 16, and NEITHER team ended up winning it all.
The fact is, people who aren't succeeding keep wanting to change the system. It does what it is designed to do: determine a champion. And it always has.
The only gripe I have is that the 15th game (classes 1-5) is not necessary. 14 games was/is enough to decide a champion. By the time the championships roll around, players are beat to holy hell, physically, and the season has been long enough for everybody. Again, the only reason the extra week was added was 1) to create revenue, and 2) to let all the people who couldn't win their district say the "made the playoffs." With the current system, everybody can say they "made the playoffs."

 

[fb_wj]

Check out Indiana's new format. I like it. And for those who say its punishing them by moving up. Under the Indiana program if they go two years without accumulating enough points they go right back to their enrollment class. I like that format.

 

[cardsbeatwriter]

Check out Indiana's new format. I like it. And for those who say its punishing them by moving up. Under the Indiana program if they go two years without accumulating enough points they go right back to their enrollment class. I like that format.

It does not make any sense to subject kids to larger classification competition not based on their merit, but on the accomplishments of the kids who graduated two years ago.
Two years ago Seneca was at the dome and I don't even know if they district game in class 3 this season, but under your plan that would be in a district with CJ and West Plains.... That seems fair!

 

[W Card]

Check out Indiana's new format. I like it. And for those who say its punishing them by moving up. Under the Indiana program if they go two years without accumulating enough points they go right back to their enrollment class. I like that format.

Ok. You have two boys. You share in the jubilation of their success and anguish with each of their disappointments. Son "A" is a naturally gifted athlete. Success in competition seems to come regularly and seemingly with only moderate effort. Son "A" is on the team that wins a state championship his Junior and Senior seasons. Life is good. Son "B" is two years younger. He looks up to his older brother and tries to mimic his success. He is not quite as naturally gifted but typically makes up the difference by working 4 times as hard. His entire team responds to him as a leader and by general consensus Son "B's" teams are even better than his brother's. But because Son "A" and his team won two championships, Son "B" and his team are thrown into the next higher class and in a district that they fail to win even once. After his final football game, Son "B" is sobbing uncontrollably in your arms and saying this just doesn't seem fair. Understandably. The more you put in, the more it hurts. You continue to try to console him. At that time someone walks by and says it is ok. Next year "they go right back to their enrollment class. I like that format."

 

[Missouri Kid]

Football is no different than any other sport. Look at wrestling ... the best two are rarely in the finals at state.

Although I think some things could be done to shake up classifications.

1.) I think the state needs to step in on lower enrollment schools (class 1) and try to start building 8-Man around the state. A school has 80 students, wins no games, and tries to compete in 11 man? Coop tried to help this, but it killed the possibility of building 8-Man around the whole state, not just in the NW part. Plus I think that you would see some small schools start thinking about playing 8-Man if they didn't have to travel 5 hours.

2.) Why do they break down the classifications like they do? Top 32 in Class 6? Class 5 catch all? Why not move this around or have 3 different formulas that you rotate? Why not break it down evenly like other sports?

Blue Tiger, I would like to follow up on your point 2. I would be interested in knowing whether a school's enrollment (relative to the enrollment of other schools in the same classification) is correlated to success in terms of championships at the district and state level (all sports not just football).
I'm talking about a "statistically significant" correlation and all of you scientists and math majors, and others, know what I'm talking about.

I would wager a small amount that there is such a correlation and, if there is, a simple fix would work for football. Cycle 1-The top 32 teams would comprise a class with the remainder divided among the remaining classes. Cycle 2-The bottom 32 teams would comprise a class with the remainder divided among the remaining classes. The practical effect is, the largest 32 teams and the smallest 32 teams are always going to remain in the same division (assuming static enrollment). However, except for the very largest or the very smallest you could be the big dog one cycle and middle of the pack next cycle or, conversely, the smallest dog one cycle and middle of the pack next cycle. The thing you are never going to get around is there will always be a largest and a smallest in every class but at least some schools cannot sit there with a built in numbers advantage every cycle and pretend it doesn't make any difference. (And maybe it doesn't statistically, but I suspect it does).

Final thought: The effect of the private schools would make designing any meaningful statistical measurement process a nightmare, if not totally impossible.

Football is no different than any other sport. Look at wrestling ... the best two are rarely in the finals at state.

Although I think some things could be done to shake up classifications.

1.) I think the state needs to step in on lower enrollment schools (class 1) and try to start building 8-Man around the state. A school has 80 students, wins no games, and tries to compete in 11 man? Coop tried to help this, but it killed the possibility of building 8-Man around the whole state, not just in the NW part. Plus I think that you would see some small schools start thinking about playing 8-Man if they didn't have to travel 5 hours.

2.) Why do they break down the classifications like they do? Top 32 in Class 6? Class 5 catch all? Why not move this around or have 3 different formulas that you rotate? Why not break it down evenly like other sports?

 

[red & black brotherhood]

Missouri kid that actually not a bad idea

 

[HoldMyTrophy]

Things i learned in my 4 years in highschool(since what you learn in that building is the most important thing ever to some)

Highschool- how to conjugate a sentence and work logrithmic equations...never done either of those since

Ag/vo tech- how to build something with your own 2 hands that you can be proud of. Yup pretty useful

Football- i learned how to grind and enjoy it and how even if you work your tail of and give it your absolute best you may still fail

Good to see the required part of my high school days was the biggest waste of time and least useful. Good coaches teach you so much more than how to block and tackle

If your high school part of your request was meant to be funny, then lol.

If not, then I'm guessing you aren't experiencing too good of a career unless you enjoy blue collar employment. Nothing wrong with that - it takes a village.

 

[mofan_tigers]

I absolutely love all the comments and especially the ideas that came about in this thread. As I said from my very 1st statement, its "just a thought" on my proposal, never said it would be a perfect plan. What I was looking for was a way for competitive balance, it was never intended for "participation trophies" and never intended to disrespect the teams that have put in the work this season and advanced to the dome.

I believe that the 1st step to create a quality program is to see/emulate a successful program (any team that year in and year out bring out the best in the kids). The kids have to buy in for it to TRY and be successful is the bottom line.

I wish the best of luck to all the teams in the state, may all be successful and learn through this great sport.

 

[fb_wj]

Ok. You have two boys. You share in the jubilation of their success and anguish with each of their disappointments. Son "A" is a naturally gifted athlete. Success in competition seems to come regularly and seemingly with only moderate effort. Son "A" is on the team that wins a state championship his Junior and Senior seasons. Life is good. Son "B" is two years younger. He looks up to his older brother and tries to mimic his success. He is not quite as naturally gifted but typically makes up the difference by working 4 times as hard. His entire team responds to him as a leader and by general consensus Son "B's" teams are even better than his brother's. But because Son "A" and his team won two championships, Son "B" and his team are thrown into the next higher class and in a district that they fail to win even once. After his final football game, Son "B" is sobbing uncontrollably in your arms and saying this just doesn't seem fair. Understandably. The more you put in, the more it hurts. You continue to try to console him. At that time someone walks by and says it is ok. Next year "they go right back to their enrollment class. I like that format."

You really just have made this whole board even more stupid for having to have to read that.

But I guess only your son would be sobbing uncontrollably, mine wouldn't. You need to toughen your son up for life my friend. Thats whats wrong with America everyone wants everything to be fair. Thats why a pop warner football team from PA doesn't get to go to Disney to play for the championsip for winning the title that they won, because the league wanted to put every teams name in a drawing to see who gets the trip so it would be more "fair".

 

[LHSTiger81]

I'm not sure if you're supporting the OP or joining in with us in condemning it. Toughen up is exactly what teams have to do, whether they get beat by the eventual champion or are the champion. You see it with teams like Liberty/Mt. View. We've ushered them into basketball season, year after year. This year it was evident that they purposed to be better and didn't complain once that the source of their motivation be moved to a different class so it could be more fair. The reward for hard work and a championship is More Hard Work. The game changes once you get the cross hairs placed on you. I can't speak for Valle but we get all the competition we need in the regular season and once the Quarters and Semi's get here, we earn our place.