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Post Great Coach Syndrome

TheRealJoey

TheRealJoey

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Jul 22, 2021
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With Webb facing the beginning of a new regime, it just got me to thinking about what happens when a legend, or a really good coach leaves.

1. The critics get more critical. As soon as something happens that parents or boosters don't like or is different...."well, he's not coach ________."
2. Buy-in from students. "Well, maybe I should just play baseball...after all new coach __________ is not like coach (that just departed.)
3. If it is a down year in talent, then #1 and #2 get exacerbated.
4. Overall fan base is skeptical...and that skepticism is enhanced when things don't go as well as expected.
5. People overall make excuses for not supporting the new coach. It is just too easy to be a negative ninny.

I do not envy those that follow....
 
tumblr_nifhy6XeMg1tfjxdjo1_640.jpg
 
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TheRealJoey said:
With Webb facing the beginning of a new regime, it just got me to thinking about what happens when a legend, or a really good coach leaves.

1. The critics get more critical. As soon as something happens that parents or boosters don't like or is different...."well, he's not coach ________."
2. Buy-in from students. "Well, maybe I should just play baseball...after all new coach __________ is not like coach (that just departed.)
3. If it is a down year in talent, then #1 and #2 get exacerbated.
4. Overall fan base is skeptical...and that skepticism is enhanced when things don't go as well as expected.
5. People overall make excuses for not supporting the new coach. It is just too easy to be a negative ninny.

I do not envy those that follow....
Click to expand...

I read something on this a few years ago, but at the college level, and it was really rare that the person following the legend did well.
 
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TheRealJoey said:
With Webb facing the beginning of a new regime, it just got me to thinking about what happens when a legend, or a really good coach leaves.

1. The critics get more critical. As soon as something happens that parents or boosters don't like or is different...."well, he's not coach ________."
2. Buy-in from students. "Well, maybe I should just play baseball...after all new coach __________ is not like coach (that just departed.)
3. If it is a down year in talent, then #1 and #2 get exacerbated.
4. Overall fan base is skeptical...and that skepticism is enhanced when things don't go as well as expected.
5. People overall make excuses for not supporting the new coach. It is just too easy to be a negative ninny.

I do not envy those that follow....
Click to expand...
Please please please understand that webb city is not kearney. I know thats what your experience is but webb is a program. Not a coach. The coach strengthens the program yes. But webbs pee wee is the reason they are so good. Jerry implamented that pee wee=varsity culture and it thrived in our blue collar society down here in trailer park central as the northerners call it. It will be a change but dreaming of a webb city decade of trash just isnt going to be there for ya.
 
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Pee wee is the reason they are so good?
Bahahahahaha Bahahahahaha Bahahahahaha Bahahahahaha
 
100% agree and have seen it firsthand. But, the new coach just has to keep his nose to the grindstone. Eventually people will come around (not everyone, but most).
 
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Veer_left said:
Please please please understand that webb city is not kearney. I know thats what your experience is but webb is a program. Not a coach. The coach strengthens the program yes. But webbs pee wee is the reason they are so good. Jerry implamented that pee wee=varsity culture and it thrived in our blue collar society down here in trailer park central as the northerners call it. It will be a change but dreaming of a webb city decade of trash just isnt going to be there for ya.
Click to expand...

Never said it was K. I have seen this phenomenon in multiple locations.
 
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TheRealJoey said:
Never said it was K. I have seen this phenomenon in multiple locations.
Click to expand...
It is sad that a coach can garner so much for somewhere and wipe it all out by leaving. Happens most places with the stepping stone coaches. Brother coaches in texas high school and had been with 7 schools in 20 years just upgrading the way around. How do you create something if you do that?
 
Veer_left said:
Please please please understand that webb city is not kearney. I know thats what your experience is but webb is a program. Not a coach. The coach strengthens the program yes. But webbs pee wee is the reason they are so good. Jerry implamented that pee wee=varsity culture and it thrived in our blue collar society down here in trailer park central as the northerners call it. It will be a change but dreaming of a webb city decade of trash just isnt going to be there for ya.
Click to expand...

Worst place this happened was with Excelsior Springs. They go from 1963 to 1971 with six undefeated teams. Coach Bonuchi leaves. They immediately sucked. Then came 18 years of comparing results with Bonuchi and comparing every coach--creates a toxic environment. Then Bonuchi comes back...wins state 2x and has some dominating teams. He gives it up again. Inducted into HOFs around Missouri. Impossible act to follow.
 
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Veer_left said:
Watched tucker woosley play. Dude was a semi.
Click to expand...
From the NWMO HOF website:

Tucker arrived at Northwest in 1997 from Excelsior Springs High School, where he earned all-state and all-metro honors and was an honorable mention All-America. Having looked up to Detroit Lions' running back Barry Sanders in his youth, Tucker quickly made his mark on the gridiron and in field events.

At 5 feet 8 inches and 238 pounds, he was known simply as "The warthog." Northwest offensive line coach Bart Tatum gave him the nickname because Tucker had an ability to put down his nose, root blockers out of holes and move them out of the way. Tucker credits head coach Mel Tjeerdmsa, offensive coordinator Jim Svoboda and Tatum for their positive influence and the character they instilled in him and the other players.

He was a four-year starting fullback for the Bearcat football team from 1997 through 2000, playing a key role in Northwest's back-to-back national championships in 1998 and 1999 and helping the teams of that era to 41 consecutive wins, a record that was broken by the Bearcats this season.

For his career, Tucker totaled 22 touchdowns, 803 rushing yards and was rarely stopped for a lost yardage. He had his most productive year in 2000, running the ball 60 times for 295 yards and nine touchdowns, along with 11 receptions for 167 yards and two touchdowns.

As a member of Northwest's track and field team, with his brother Conrad, Tucker was a three-year co-captain for coach Richard Alsup's teams, earning three conference titles in shot put. He broke the shot-put record as a sophomore, junior and senior, and his career-best throw of 58-feet-5.75-inches remains fourth in program history. He was a six-time All-American selection, which ranks him first among all Northwest athletes with All-American honors. Tucker also was the NCAA national runner-up in the shot put in 2001 helping the Bearcats to a fourth-place overall national team finish.
 
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Webb is good because of good players. If they were good because of how they do youth football everyone would just copy them
 
AC100 said:
Webb is good because of good players. If they were good because of how they do youth football everyone would just copy them
Click to expand...

Youth football is a plus among many factors...but it does nothing more than hold up and peak interest for continued football.
 
TheRealJoey said:
Worst place this happened was with Excelsior Springs. They go from 1963 to 1971 with six undefeated teams. Coach Bonuchi leaves. They immediately sucked. Then came 18 years of comparing results with Bonuchi and comparing every coach--creates a toxic environment. Then Bonuchi comes back...wins state 2x and has some dominating teams. He gives it up again. Inducted into HOFs around Missouri. Impossible act to follow.
Click to expand...
He was one helluva wrestling coach as well...
 
TheRealJoey said:
Worst place this happened was with Excelsior Springs. They go from 1963 to 1971 with six undefeated teams. Coach Bonuchi leaves. They immediately sucked. Then came 18 years of comparing results with Bonuchi and comparing every coach--creates a toxic environment. Then Bonuchi comes back...wins state 2x and has some dominating teams. He gives it up again. Inducted into HOFs around Missouri. Impossible act to follow.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure you've brought this up before.
The 1963-71 run seems to have been fueled by playing an MRVC schedule that was composed of smaller schools:
MRVC Teams 1963-71
Lexington (before the arrival of Gil Rector, et al)
Carrollton
Marshall
Richmond
Wentworth Military Academy (joined in 1965)
Higginsville
Slater
Excelsior Springs

No playoffs prior to 1968. Excelsior Springs, despite their shiny records, did not qualify for the playoffs from 1968-71. The playoff teams were decided in those years on a point system which rewarded/punished teams for strength of schedule and opponent records. After 1971 season, Coach Bonuchi left. Excelsior Springs left the MRVC same year.

**Outside of the great teams of 1994 and 1996, there was one (1) year that Excelsior Springs qualified for the playoffs (2000), prior to the current system where everyone qualifies.

The history of the Excelsior Springs program, while I'm sure a great source of local pride, is probably not a great example of the point you were trying to make. The rich tradition pretty much consists of those 2 years in the 1990s.
 
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Rufus R. Jones said:
Pretty sure you've brought this up before.
The 1963-71 run seems to have been fueled by playing an MRVC schedule that was composed of smaller schools:
MRVC Teams 1963-71
Lexington (before the arrival of Gil Rector, et al)
Carrollton
Marshall
Richmond
Wentworth Military Academy (joined in 1965)
Higginsville
Slater
Excelsior Springs

No playoffs prior to 1968. Excelsior Springs, despite their shiny records, did not qualify for the playoffs from 1968-71. The playoff teams were decided in those years on a point system which rewarded/punished teams for strength of schedule and opponent records. After 1971 season, Coach Bonuchi left. Excelsior Springs left the MRVC same year.

**Outside of the great teams of 1994 and 1996, there was one (1) year that Excelsior Springs qualified for the playoffs (2000), prior to the current system where everyone qualifies.

The history of the Excelsior Springs program, while I'm sure a great source of local pride, is probably not a great example of the point you were trying to make.
Click to expand...

You left out Liberty from the 63-71 schedule. You are trying to diminish their accomplishments... these were, at the time, teams in the same classification. The years you mention from 1968 to 1971, they had one undefeated team, in 1971. There were some state rankings, especially of the 1964-66 time period, where the Tigers were ranked as top six in the state in all classes by various newspapers. So please...one of those years they were ranked #2 behind Jeff City.
The MRVC was originally formed as the BIG FIVE Conference in 1928. The
schools represented in the original BIG FIVE were: Cameron, Carrollton,
Excelsior Springs, Liberty, and Richmond. Lexington and Marshall were
added making the BIG SEVEN.
 
r14veer said:
I read something on this a few years ago, but at the college level, and it was really rare that the person following the legend did well.
Click to expand...
I’ve seen that somewhere also. So do you hire knowing the first coach after is a short timer?
 
TheRealJoey said:
You left out Liberty from the 63-71 schedule. You are trying to diminish their accomplishments... these were, at the time, teams in the same classification. The years you mention from 1968 to 1971, they had one undefeated team, in 1971.
The MRVC was originally formed as the BIG FIVE Conference in 1928. The
schools represented in the original BIG FIVE were: Cameron, Carrollton,
Excelsior Springs, Liberty, and Richmond. Lexington and Marshall were
added making the BIG SEVEN.
Click to expand...
I'm absolutely trying to diminish their accomplishments. They were beating up on small schools. When they've elected to play schools their own size, they've consistently struggled. Has nothing to do with Vic Bonuchi.
You cited the years 1963-71. So I only included the composition of the conference in those years. Liberty left the conference to join the newly formed Suburban Conference in 1959. At any rate, Excelsior Springs was the same size or bigger than Liberty until the 1970s.
 
Rufus R. Jones said:
I'm absolutely trying to diminish their accomplishments. They were beating up on small schools. When they've elected to play schools their own size, they've consistently struggled. Has nothing to do with Vic Bonuchi.
You cited the years 1963-71. So I only included the composition of the conference in those years. Liberty left the conference to join the newly formed Suburban Conference in 1959. At any rate, Excelsior Springs was the same size or bigger than Liberty until the 1970s.
Click to expand...

Rufus, they played Liberty every year from 1903 onward up until 1997
 
Rufus R. Jones said:
I'm absolutely trying to diminish their accomplishments. They were beating up on small schools. When they've elected to play schools their own size, they've consistently struggled. Has nothing to do with Vic Bonuchi.
You cited the years 1963-71. So I only included the composition of the conference in those years. Liberty left the conference to join the newly formed Suburban Conference in 1959. At any rate, Excelsior Springs was the same size or bigger than Liberty until the 1970s.
Click to expand...
Excelsior Springs was smaller than Liberty after around 1958....Check out the general population. Bro, you are off today.
 
TheRealJoey said:
Excelsior Springs was smaller than Liberty after around 1958....Check out the general population. Bro, you are off today.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I was off by a decade, looking at the numbers. Not a huge difference between the two through the 1960's, though. Unlike say...Excelsior Springs and Slater.
My point was that if you're going to talk about the demise of great programs when a coach leaves, you might actually choose a great program.
 
Rufus R. Jones said:
Yeah, I was off by a decade, looking at the numbers. Not a huge difference between the two through the 1960's, though. Unlike say...Excelsior Springs and Slater.
My point was that if you're going to talk about the demise of great programs when a coach leaves, you might actually choose a great program.
Click to expand...
So what’s a great program to you? Do you have to win a state championship? Never have a losing season? How long do they have to maintain a certain level to be a great program? And what is that level?
 
AC100 said:
Webb is good because of good players. If they were good because of how they do youth football everyone would just copy them
Click to expand...
How about this thought then. I think Lamar copied Webb to a certain extent, but a player Colby Hall helped start something at Lamar . Hard work - weights and strength training , buying into a system ,playing as a team - a Brotherhood . All of these kids have played together as a team for 7 yrs when they teach jr varsity. They know each other and know how to play together as a team. Then the next group reloads the system. I have loved watching Lamar play Lutheran North, and Trinity with all of their D 1 'S That is all you would hear about before the game , and Lamar comes out and punches them in the mouth right at the start . Give me a team that plays together, for each other every time over select superstars. Also coaching continuity is very important also. When Coach Bailey stepped down the coaches that were with him stayed, and 3 state appearances in a row later the Team rolls on!
 
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That all helps but for example if Dante Washington doesn't move in with a family in Webb they don't win the state title last year.
 
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The pee wee comment was more towards the kids play the same system all the way up. By the time they are on varsity it is set in stone. The blocking assignments don't change all the way up. There is a rogue coach here and there but memorizing a system thay doesnt change helps a ton. A running program helps better. Say like Joplin. They pass a lot. Cant pass that well in 3rd thru 6th so that doesnt help them much memorizing the varsity system.
 
I was there during the Thompson / Roderique transition and I can tell you not everyone was sold on Roderique at first and the comparisons definitely were being made. His style and demeanor was loads different than Thompson who was your stereotypical football coach personality. Roderique won a (very lopsided) state championship his first year but some people wrote that off as "Coach Thompsons leftovers". The next year WC opened the season with a loss to Branson and several other schools and didn't make the playoffs. It was an average season by most definitions but probably the worst WC has had since the 80s. I heard lots of people asking the question is WC football over? Is this Roderique fellow really 'the guy'?

I don't recall the exact details of the following years but I know it was a very short lived dip and then the era began where WC was winning roughly 50% of the C4 championships began and no one looked back. Had there been another season or two that looked like 1998 who knows, might have been a lot of the toxic finger pointing, questioning, blaming, and different folks going rogue trying to fix it on their own. But that's not what happened and I doubt it will this time either.

But make no mistake there will absolutely be people making comparisons. After a coach like Roderique it's impossible not to. The new coach will enjoy a load of benefits and opportunities that come with coaching at Webb City but the comparisons and perhaps outrageous expectations are the other side of that coin.
 
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Rufus R. Jones said:
Yeah, I was off by a decade, looking at the numbers. Not a huge difference between the two through the 1960's, though. Unlike say...Excelsior Springs and Slater.
My point was that if you're going to talk about the demise of great programs when a coach leaves, you might actually choose a great program.
Click to expand...

See the heading..."Great Coach" leaves. So your argument is that Bonuchi was not a great coach? There are several Hall of Fame committees that disagree with you. Oh yeah, besides 6 undefeated teams in football (and two state titles upon his return from 89 to 97, he also won two state championships in wrestling. We won't go into who he mentored, but suffice to say that several large area school districts have stadiums named after people he influenced. Even a long term AD from neighboring Liberty learned from him.

The only thing I can think is that you were a Liberty Bluejay that was butthurt because you lost to him.


Vic is a member of the Missouri High School Football Coaches Hall of Fame,
the Greater Kansas City Football Coaches Hall of Fame,
the Missouri High School Wrestling Coaches Hall of Fame,
the National Wrestling Coaches Hall of Fame.

And yes, THAT is hard to replace. People will compare.
 
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Rufus R. Jones said:
Yeah, I was off by a decade, looking at the numbers. Not a huge difference between the two through the 1960's, though. Unlike say...Excelsior Springs and Slater.
My point was that if you're going to talk about the demise of great programs when a coach leaves, you might actually choose a great program.
Click to expand...


Teams they played every year. LOL
Marshall was MUCH bigger than Excelsior Springs.
Liberty bigger after 1958 than E.
Higginsville, slighly smaller
Richmond, slightly smaller
Carollton, slighly smaller

Slater would be considerably smaller... No different today in some areas where class 4 teams play a class 2 team in their conference.

I guess we should ignore Liberty North's record today...because the size differential in their school from most of the teams they play is much higher than old ES.

Thanks for playing...no wonder Bulldog Bob Brown and Harley Race kicked your ass all the time.
 
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Joey, would you say Blue Springs South went through a similar situation when Oder left? I know they had some mediocre years when he was there, but he also brought them 3 state titles I believe. I think this year was their first year with a winning record since he left.
 
hsfootballdude said:
No telling if it will happen at Webb or not, but Joey is right on here..
Click to expand...

I am certainly not saying this would happen at Webb. Just saying something to have patience when things aren't the same. Of course, that bit Kearney in the ass a bit. They went 8-3 a couple years, and people said "have patience." Then the program got driven into the ground--and covid likely delayed action.
 
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