Pledge of allegiance

[ag-man]

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, UNDER GOD, indivisible , with liberty and justice for all".

Amazing we want liberty and justice for all, but want to forget the God part !!

Can thou say hypocrite ?

 

[Neutron Monster]

Can you say we shoved that in in the 1950s thanks to people like Joe McCarthy?

The original pledge of allegiance didn't include under God.

This is not a good argument.

Further the original pledge of allegiance is an arbitrary passage signed into law by congress in the 20th century, not something with real historical significance. it says something about congress during the communist scare. That's about it.

It's the same time period when the national motto went from E Pluribus Unum to in God we trust.

 

[Duck_walk]

Do you know why we said the pledge in school? Because a greedy ass flag salesman pushed hard to get a law passed requiring the pledge so he could get rich selling flags to schools. One nation under Cash...

 

[Kenny56]

One nation under Cash...

 

[ag-man]

Can you say we shoved that in in the 1950s thanks to people like Joe McCarthy?

The original pledge of allegiance didn't include under God.

This is not a good argument.

Further the original pledge of allegiance is an arbitrary passage signed into law by congress in the 20th century, not something with real historical significance. it says something about congress during the communist scare. That's about it.

It's the same time period when the national motto went from E Pluribus Unum to in God we trust.

President Eisenhower signed this into law in 1954. It has been this way 61 years. Does this somehow make it less valid?

 

[Bogey Man]

You know, I have always had a problem forcing kids in school to say the pledge of allegiance. It reeks of forced patriotism and reminds me of forcing people to pledge allegiance to the Nazis in the 1930s. We are a free minded people and shouldn't be force to support any and all actions our national government takes. Think Vietnam era. The draft ended while I was in high school when there was no longer any support for the war. I remember thinking and saying I wouldn't go to Vietnam, the same as everyone else in that era. We were no longer willing to pledge blind allegiance to our country.

Just think if the wars in the Middle East were like conventional wars in the past with hundreds of men and women coming home in body bags each month. Americans would be fed up with it by now. Those of us old enough remember what it was like when we all knew some of the young men who didn't make it home from Vietnam. If that was happening today, we all would have a different view of the wars in the Middle East and blind trust of our government. The greatest thing about our country is we have the right to oppose our government.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, UNDER GOD, indivisible , with liberty and justice for all".

Amazing we want liberty and justice for all, but want to forget the God part !!

Can thou say hypocrite ?

As an aside...do you realize many of the GOP neocons are 'dual citizens'? How can you have allegiance to more than one country? Ever since neocons became part of our highest government, we've got to heck in a handbasket. Thanks Reagan.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

President Eisenhower signed this into law in 1954. It has been this way 61 years. Does this somehow make it less valid?

Ike was also the last conservative republican.

How about you get back to conservatism before worrying about stuff like this? That'd be great.

 

[ag-man]

You know, I have always had a problem forcing kids in school to say the pledge of allegiance. It reeks of forced patriotism and reminds me of forcing people to pledge allegiance to the Nazis in the 1930s. We are a free minded people and shouldn't be force to support any and all actions our national government takes. Think Vietnam era. The draft ended while I was in high school when there was no longer any support for the war. I remember thinking and saying I wouldn't go to Vietnam, the same as everyone else in that era. We were no longer willing to pledge blind allegiance to our country.

Just think if the wars in the Middle East were like conventional wars in the past with hundreds of men and women coming home in body bags each month. Americans would be fed up with it by now. Those of us old enough remember what it was like when we all knew some of the young men who didn't make it home from Vietnam. If that was happening today, we all would have a different view of the wars in the Middle East and blind trust of our government. The greatest thing about our country is we have the right to oppose our government.

I agree with your post. Fair minded, free thinking people should no doubt question their government. I for one disagree with a lot that the government forces on me, however, I am still proud of America and feel the pledge should be recited in school as a way to promote patriotism.

 

[Expect2Win]

Would some of you get your heads out. Bingo Bob Holden signed a bill saying we have to say the pledge once a week. There may be a few teachers and classes that don't do it every week. But there are few and far between.

 

[Neutron Monster]

President Eisenhower signed this into law in 1954. It has been this way 61 years. Does this somehow make it less valid?

Yes, it does.

The pledge of allegiance was changed for anti-communism reasons when the US was in a bout of religious fervor in the 1950s.

I don't really care either way about the Pledge or what's in it, but the idea that is some sign that we are a Christian nation is hokum. It's a sign that people got fired up about communists 60 years ago. That's it.

 

[Neutron Monster]

You know, I have always had a problem forcing kids in school to say the pledge of allegiance. It reeks of forced patriotism and reminds me of forcing people to pledge allegiance to the Nazis in the 1930s. We are a free minded people and shouldn't be force to support any and all actions our national government takes. Think Vietnam era. The draft ended while I was in high school when there was no longer any support for the war. I remember thinking and saying I wouldn't go to Vietnam, the same as everyone else in that era. We were no longer willing to pledge blind allegiance to our country.

Just think if the wars in the Middle East were like conventional wars in the past with hundreds of men and women coming home in body bags each month. Americans would be fed up with it by now. Those of us old enough remember what it was like when we all knew some of the young men who didn't make it home from Vietnam. If that was happening today, we all would have a different view of the wars in the Middle East and blind trust of our government. The greatest thing about our country is we have the right to oppose our government.

We should all want to work to make America a better place. That is true patriotism. We don't have to agree with everything our government does.

Does reciting the pledge make kids more supportive of America over the long run? I have no idea. It always struck me as something that was there more for parents than for kids.

The pledge does come from a time when propaganda was more meaningful to us - it came into effect after World War I, and it was updated during the height of the Red Scare. It was a different time. Can you imagine this becoming law today if it didn't already exist whether or not it said under God? I don't think it would pass.

I think a lot of the difference in the Middle East is we kept more people alive through better medical care than we were able to do in Vietnam. The human toll, overall, is not as much lower as we'd like to pretend that it is.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

Yes, it does.

The pledge of allegiance was changed for anti-communism reasons when the US was in a bout of religious fervor in the 1950s.

I don't really care either way about the Pledge or what's in it, but the idea that is some sign that we are a Christian nation is hokum. It's a sign that people got fired up about communists 60 years ago. That's it.

again it's a case where some folks think words mean more than actions.

Sorta like the helping the poor scthick.They're talking all for helping the poor on Sundays but don't be taking none of their real God (MONEY) out of their pockets.

 

[Bogey Man]

Totally wrong, Neutron. In Vietnam, 58,000 Americans killed and 153,000 wounded. In Iraq/Afghanistan, 4,800 killed and 35,000 wounded so far. It has nothing to do with medical advances. It was a different type of war in Vietnam with more Americans on the ground, and much more face to face gun fights, battalions/divisions vs. same strength opposition, more bombing each other, often hundreds killed daily. If this was happening today, there would be more opposition to the war.

 

[MORock]

What helping the poor scthick? The assistance provided to the poor, and the immigrants of this country by the Catholic Church pre-dates social programs instituted by Roosevelt and Johnson by decades. For generations it was the good will of a community or the Church - especially in population centers, that provide necessary social services. It's no coincidence that the Catholic Church until quite recently had the largest hospital networks in the country. Catholic social services is one of the primary providers of services to illegal immigrants, and the current administration is relying on the good will of Catholic social services to feed and house this population. Money for Catholic social services (Catholic Charities is the most well known), is provided by the Sunday collections as well as ongoing charitable giving.

Catholic Nuns are among the most well known givers of care to all populations regardless of their religion. They are able to do this because of the charitable giving of Church members.

As well, the private Catholic schools you so despise (and which are educating many poor immigrants in inner cities today) are a direct result of Catholic immigrants (primarily boys) being refused admission or discriminated against in public schools. Interestingly one of the flash points was corporal punishments being meted out by Protestant teachers to the Catholic boys who did not recite the Protestant version of the Lord's Prayer.

I feel good about my contributions through the Church, and further am much more comfortable in knowing that my money is more directly getting to those for which it is intended. Yes indeed, I am frustrated with the ever expanding entitlement requirements by the federal government. I think it has been shown many times that the feds are not at all efficient in distributing aid. What the fed, and in particular your liberal ilk are really all about is creating a population that is solely reliant on its largess. Its all about securing votes - a cynical idea, I know.

 

[Kenny56]

What helping the poor scthick? The assistance provided to the poor, and the immigrants of this country by the Catholic Church pre-dates social programs instituted by Roosevelt and Johnson by decades. For generations it was the good will of a community or the Church - especially in population centers, that provide necessary social services. It's no coincidence that the Catholic Church until quite recently had the largest hospital networks in the country. Catholic social services is one of the primary providers of services to illegal immigrants, and the current administration is relying on the good will of Catholic social services to feed and house this population. Money for Catholic social services (Catholic Charities is the most well known), is provided by the Sunday collections as well as ongoing charitable giving.

Catholic Nuns are among the most well known givers of care to all populations regardless of their religion. They are able to do this because of the charitable giving of Church members.

As well, the private Catholic schools you so despise (and which are educating many poor immigrants in inner cities today) are a direct result of Catholic immigrants (primarily boys) being refused admission or discriminated against in public schools. Interestingly one of the flash points was corporal punishments being meted out by Protestant teachers to the Catholic boys who did not recite the Protestant version of the Lord's Prayer.

I feel good about my contributions through the Church, and further am much more comfortable in knowing that my money is more directly getting to those for which it is intended. Yes indeed, I am frustrated with the ever expanding entitlement requirements by the federal government. I think it has been shown many times that the feds are not at all efficient in distributing aid. What the fed, and in particular your liberal ilk are really all about is creating a population that is solely reliant on its largess. Its all about securing votes - a cynical idea, I know.

Veer likes Catholics about as much as he like's the Israeli people. The dude has serious issues with other peoples religion choice.

 

[Bogey Man]

And how do you feel about the Catholic church paying off victims of priests' sexual abuse to keep quiet?

 

[MORock]

I find it to be reprehensible. As well, I have many friends that are members of the clergy and I can assure you that they are even more upset by these awful actions than I am.

As I understand it, many of the funds to settle the lawsuits (which are absolutely justified) come from insurance, and in some cases by the selling of churches, etc. Yes, indirectly my contributions also funded the insurance policies.

I noticed that you were quite quick to point out this terrible flaw, but you didn't refute anything that I said about the charitable actions by the Church.

 

[Neutron Monster]

Totally wrong, Neutron. In Vietnam, 58,000 Americans killed and 153,000 wounded. In Iraq/Afghanistan, 4,800 killed and 35,000 wounded so far. It has nothing to do with medical advances. It was a different type of war in Vietnam with more Americans on the ground, and much more face to face gun fights, battalions/divisions vs. same strength opposition, more bombing each other, often hundreds killed daily. If this was happening today, there would be more opposition to the war.

If you had the same dead/wounded rate in Iraq/Afghanistan as we had in Vietnam, you'd have over 10,000 dead. That's my point. It's not the same as Vietnam when you had nearly 600,000 troops on the ground, but if you had double the rate of deaths, it would have increased political pressure.

Technology matters, but medicine and equipment have also cut down on deaths a lot.

 

[Kenny56]

And how do you feel about the Catholic church paying off victims of priests' sexual abuse to keep quiet?

About the same as paying teachers who sexually abuse students.

 

[Neutron Monster]

Veer's criticism is more accurately delivered to evangelical Republicans who want to gut anti-poverty programs than the Catholics.

The Catholic Church is generally a major proponent of those government policies you are criticizing. You're giving the Church credit for what it does, and then ignoring its opinion that we, as a society, have an obligation to do much more than just provide private charity - for example, they are among the most ardent supporters of Medicaid expansion.

Further, the government actually does a much more efficient job than you give it credit for doing. No program is perfect, but neither are charities. Charities have dead weight loss (overhead) and they don't always spend money perfectly, either.

 

[Neutron Monster]

And how do you feel about the Catholic church paying off victims of priests' sexual abuse to keep quiet?

I say this as an outsider to the Catholic church...they owe reparations to those victims. But, yeah, it would be hard for me to see my church donations being taken to fund those settlements, because that is money that could be used to put kids in school, put food on the table, provide free health care, etc.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

What helping the poor scthick? The assistance provided to the poor, and the immigrants of this country by the Catholic Church pre-dates social programs instituted by Roosevelt and Johnson by decades. For generations it was the good will of a community or the Church - especially in population centers, that provide necessary social services. It's no coincidence that the Catholic Church until quite recently had the largest hospital networks in the country. Catholic social services is one of the primary providers of services to illegal immigrants, and the current administration is relying on the good will of Catholic social services to feed and house this population. Money for Catholic social services (Catholic Charities is the most well known), is provided by the Sunday collections as well as ongoing charitable giving.

Catholic Nuns are among the most well known givers of care to all populations regardless of their religion. They are able to do this because of the charitable giving of Church members.

As well, the private Catholic schools you so despise (and which are educating many poor immigrants in inner cities today) are a direct result of Catholic immigrants (primarily boys) being refused admission or discriminated against in public schools. Interestingly one of the flash points was corporal punishments being meted out by Protestant teachers to the Catholic boys who did not recite the Protestant version of the Lord's Prayer.

I feel good about my contributions through the Church, and further am much more comfortable in knowing that my money is more directly getting to those for which it is intended. Yes indeed, I am frustrated with the ever expanding entitlement requirements by the federal government. I think it has been shown many times that the feds are not at all efficient in distributing aid. What the fed, and in particular your liberal ilk are really all about is creating a population that is solely reliant on its largess. Its all about securing votes - a cynical idea, I know.

Guess we don't need gubmint welfare then...since you guys got this covered.

Don't tear your rotator cuff patting yourself on the back champ. Thanks for jumping right in though. Guilty conscience.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

Veer likes Catholics about as much as he like's the Israeli people. The dude has serious issues with other peoples religion choice.

Sort of like you and minorities?

Silly ain't it?

I don't like neocons. No apologies there. Look what they've done to our country since they bought the GOP.

 

[MORock]

The Catholic Church is generally a major proponent of those government policies you are criticizing. You're giving the Church credit for what it does, and then ignoring its opinion that we, as a society, have an obligation to do much more than just provide private charity - for example, they are among the most ardent supporters of Medicaid expansion.

Indeed, the Church is quite liberal in its support of many social services programs. I am not necessarily in total opposition to Medicaid expansion to use your example.

I was really just trying to provide a relatively short, and somewhat example based response to Veer's typically cynical, and sweeping characterization of Christians. I am far from what might be termed an Evangelical, and my theology is more academic than literal. I have had a theology professor who is a world renown expert in social theology (particularly focused on Central America) which is not necessarily a popular issue in the church (see Liberation Theology). While we don't agree on some issues his position and writing has challenged and changed many of my world views - particularly as it relates to US policy in the 70's and 80's in Central America. Unfortunately, the clash of politics, powers, and social order dictate hugely distasteful choices - I am not sure lesser evil is correct...

Labels frustrate me, and in particular I take issue with the previously referenced poster's attempt to lump a population of millions into a single category - probably simpler for him.

 

[MORock]

Thanks for jumping right in though. Guilty conscience.

Do I need your permission to participate? You obviously have a problem with reasoned responses.

My conscience is quite clear at the moment thank you. Do you want to have a conversation concerning the theology of conscience formation? I just finished reading a scholarly article on this topic about a week ago.

 

[MORock]

Guess we don't need gubmint welfare then...since you guys got this covered.

and for reference sake, the Catholic Church does not deny services to those who seek it - regardless of religion. Did you want to refute any of my points, or just provide smart - @$$ commentary.

Also, it is spelled g o v e r n m e n t.

 

[wcowherd]

Indeed, the Church is quite liberal in its support of many social services programs. I am not necessarily in total opposition to Medicaid expansion to use your example.

I was really just trying to provide a relatively short, and somewhat example based response to Veer's typically cynical, and sweeping characterization of Christians. I am far from what might be termed an Evangelical, and my theology is more academic than literal. I have had a theology professor who is a world renown expert in social theology (particularly focused on Central America) which is not necessarily a popular issue in the church (see Liberation Theology). While we don't agree on some issues his position and writing has challenged and changed many of my world views - particularly as it relates to US policy in the 70's and 80's in Central America. Unfortunately, the clash of politics, powers, and social order dictate hugely distasteful choices - I am not sure lesser evil is correct...

Labels frustrate me, and in particular I take issue with the previously referenced poster's attempt to lump a population of millions into a single category - probably simpler for him.

Have you talked to @millerbleach about whether you're a Christian or not?

 

[MORock]

Have you talked to @millerbleach about whether you're a Christian or not?

Now that made me smile.

I respect the gentleman's beliefs - and in particular his faith.

 

[millerbleach]

Now that made me smile.

I respect the gentleman's beliefs - and in particular his faith.

Thank you for a reasonable response to a goading post.

It should be noted that I believe there are many Catholics who are Christians. The Catholic church in general (my personal experience anyways) seems to always place importance on things a Christian finds no value in (the opinion of man, etc.). I'm probably influenced by a great deal of people who claim to be Catholic just to avoid religious conversations. On another note, I truly appreciate the ferver of the Catholic church in standing by their beliefs in the face of much adversity. Anyone who points out the bad apples is simply redirecting. EVERY group of people has bad apples and that includes all churches not just the Catholics.

 

[Bogey Man]

It should be noted that I believe there are many Catholics who are Christians

Thank you for including some of us, most holy Prophet Miller. I will sleep better tonight knowing that you have confirmed some of us as Christians. Bless you.

 

[Scout 4u]

Thank you for including some of us, most holy Prophet Miller. I will sleep better tonight knowing that you have confirmed some of us as Christians. Bless you.

Don't normally get involved in religious battles but this time I'll make an exception .

Give Miller a break...

He's not really that bad of a guy is he?

 

[Bogey Man]

Agree. Most prophets are pretty good guys.

 

[millerbleach]

Thank you for including some of us, most holy Prophet Miller. I will sleep better tonight knowing that you have confirmed some of us as Christians. Bless you.

Actually I said many.
I see you don't know what a prophet does.