Mizzou Loss

[washMoSports]

So would you have let Oklahoma run off the clock down 3 or would you foul?

Hindsight probably should have fouled. My son and I talking as it happened both agreed they probably should foul. We predicted the Oklahoma foul at the end.
Could possibly have gotten a 3 quicker in the possession.

Either way, season fizzled after reaching the 10th ranking.

 

[wahoolives]

I thought the bigger mistake was fouling a couple times around or a 2 minutes. I thought the strategy at the end of not fouling was fine, just didn't appear to have a plan to get a 3 once they got the stop.

 

[mike37]

Maybe Porter Moiser is the guy Mizzou should hire!

 

[Veer2Eternity]

He'd never leave that job for this. Miz's best shot is to keep Martin. Nobody better would come to Columbia right now.

Kim Anderson cratered that program.
That was a horrible hire.

 

[faurotfield]

Maybe Porter Moiser is the guy Mizzou should hire!

I think Porter Moser himself is a great example of why Mizzou needs to be patient with Cuonzo Martin. It took Moser 14 seasons as a head coach to make the NCAA Tournament. It took him the same number of seasons to finish above 5th in his conference too. He'd had 8 consecutive losing seasons in the Missouri Valley (factoring in the Illinois State years too) before they broke through in the Valley championship season with the Final Four.

No P5/P6 school would have had the patience to wait on Moser to finally put things together. He has certainly figured it all out now and could turn Loyola into the Gonzaga of the Midwest if he stays. He would probably be smart to stay in Chicago and remain a Rambler legend.

 

[faurotfield]

I'd suggest that Haith was a bad hire that started the cratering process. Haith was in over his head and then did a really smart thing bailing to Tulsa. The time for the dramatic hire was after Haith and they completely whiffed.

It was a combination of Haith and Kim Anderson really. Haith getting them into NCAA trouble and then Anderson losing transfers and never developing anyone. I have a lot of respect for him as a former Mizzou player and successful assistant coach, but he never should have gotten the job unfortunately.

The big "what if" for me as a Mizzou basketball fan is what would have happened if Mike Anderson had stayed? Nolan Richardson was pretty influential in getting him to make that move in my opinion. I think it was tough for him to say no to Arkansas and trying to reestablish 40 Minutes of Hell. But if he stayed, he probably gets Otto Porter and he had a nice team in place for 2011-12. He might still be there today.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

You’re HCCM and your club is down 6 with 2:30 to go. Think a Mitchell Smith 3 attempt is the shot you want?

 

[Eagles_Ball]

I think Porter Moser himself is a great example of why Mizzou needs to be patient with Cuonzo Martin. It took Moser 14 seasons as a head coach to make the NCAA Tournament. It took him the same number of seasons to finish above 5th in his conference too. He'd had 8 consecutive losing seasons in the Missouri Valley (factoring in the Illinois State years too) before they broke through in the Valley championship season with the Final Four.

No P5/P6 school would have had the patience to wait on Moser to finally put things together. He has certainly figured it all out now and could turn Loyola into the Gonzaga of the Midwest if he stays. He would probably be smart to stay in Chicago and remain a Rambler legend.

In theory that’s a valid point. Not sure it passes the eye test though. Porters last few teams share the ball really well and are pretty efficient offensively. And they protect the rim. You can see the Majerus influence for sure. CMs teams seem to lack any identity whatsoever. And players don’t really seem to improve all that much. That’s an issue. But at this point, I think they’re kinda stuck with each other.

 

[kaskaskiakid]

Who in the hell shot that last 3?? Mizzou never takes good shots down the stretch, by whoever gets a look. Get the ball in the hands of your playmakers!!!!! Drives me crazy!!!!!

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Best thing CM could do is spend all off season scouring JUCOs for these guys that end up going to mid-majors and beating the pants off the P5s in the tourney.

Have you not seen the list of incoming freshmen? He's already "stealing" recruits from mid-majors...If a lot of the current roster doesn't take advantage of the Rona Return Rule, or whatever it's called, he's going to need to find some players somewhere. The current incoming class coupled with the non-seniors from this years team? Yikes.

 

[kaskaskiakid]

I still think Martin is a good fit for Mizzou. Give him time. And yes, agree with some good JUCO players in MO that are seasoned and proven talent.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

I still think Martin is a good fit for Mizzou. Give him time. And yes, agree with some good JUCO players in MO that are seasoned and proven talent.

It's a tough spot right now. He certainly doesn't justify the money. But he took over a rough situation. Problem is, he's had four years to right the ship. And, barring surprise returnees or impact transfers, his roster in year five is going to be good for about 13th in preseason SEC. That's not good. At all.

 

[faurotfield]

In theory that’s a valid point. Not sure it passes the eye test though. Porters last few teams share the ball really well and are pretty efficient offensively. And they protect the rim. You can see the Majerus influence for sure. CMs teams seem to lack any identity whatsoever. And players don’t really seem to improve all that much. That’s an issue. But at this point, I think they’re kinda stuck with each other.

I would definitely agree that Moser learned a lot as an assistant at SLU. Once he took over at Loyola, which was a place in just pitiful shape at the time, it was slow but noticeable progress until he broke through in 2017-2018. I don't remember anything really standing out with the Porter Moser Illinois State teams. He adapted and was willing to change over time and he has been rewarded.

Certainly Cuonzo Martin's contract provides him quite a bit of security. And knowing that he was taking over a program in shambles, it was a very astute move by his agent to get him that level of security. When Mizzou was looking for a coach in the spring of 2017, long before we had any idea that the Porters were in play, I thought it would be a long rebuild and if you told me we'd make it to the NCAA Tournament in 2 of the next 4 years I would have taken it in a heartbeat. Without question it has been an uneven 4 years under Cuonzo, but he will rightfully get time to build.

 

[oldroundballer]

I still think Martin is a good fit for Mizzou. Give him time. And yes, agree with some good JUCO players in MO that are seasoned and proven talent.

Are there any Juco players in MO that can actually be difference makers at the highest level? I've watched the three best Juco teams in the state and haven't seen any. Most of the guys Mizzou had this year would be stars in Juco. Juco doesn't get many really good players anymore. The ones they did usually had issues. Those guys go prep school now.

The bottom line with Martin is he simply has to get better players. If he can somehow start doing that he might work out. If the status remains quo average is as good as he will be with below average being the norm. Unfortunately the Mizzou brass will probably be fine with average as long as he doesn't have many issues and continues to a good father figure.

 

[faurotfield]

Have you not seen the list of incoming freshmen? He's already "stealing" recruits from mid-majors...If a lot of the current roster doesn't take advantage of the Rona Return Rule, or whatever it's called, he's going to need to find some players somewhere. The current incoming class coupled with the non-seniors from this years team? Yikes.

This incoming recruiting class kind of reminds me of the 2008-2009 freshman class under Mike Anderson. They weren't overly impressive on paper and people were sort of wondering if Mike Anderson was going to work out. But that class (Marcus Denmon, Laurence Bowers, Kim English, Steve Moore) really changed the trajectory and made it to the NCAA Tournament all four years.

I really like Brookshire's game. I don't care about his offers, he has always looked like the real deal to me. I remember watching him play in the Blue and Gold in 2019 and I was convinced he would end up somewhere in the Valley or Horizon League and in a couple years he would lead some team to the Sweet 16 and Mizzou fans would be barking about "why didn't Coach Martin offer him?" Brazile is still kind of raw but he has taken huge strides since his days at Parkview. And he had the growth spurt. He was attracting a lot of high major interest right before he committed. Durugordon has been on campus for the last semester so you have to think that would help him adjust quicker. It's tough to know about Keita with the injury but prior to that, he looked the part. I don't know a whole lot about Kaleb Brown but if he can be like his brother then he will be a great signing.

I don't know how many of next years freshmen will be impact guys from day one. It's going to be imperative that Cuonzo land several impact transfers to bridge the gap. But I think this freshman class can be the foundation for what Martin is trying to build.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

It's a tough spot right now. He certainly doesn't justify the money. But he took over a rough situation. Problem is, he's had four years to right the ship. And, barring surprise returnees or impact transfers, his roster in year five is going to be good for about 13th in preseason SEC. That's not good. At all.

What was uk good for this last preseason?

i'll listen off the air

 

[Eagles_Ball]

This incoming recruiting class kind of reminds me of the 2008-2009 freshman class under Mike Anderson. They weren't overly impressive on paper and people were sort of wondering if Mike Anderson was going to work out. But that class (Marcus Denmon, Laurence Bowers, Kim English, Steve Moore) really changed the trajectory and made it to the NCAA Tournament all four years.

I really like Brookshire's game. I don't care about his offers, he has always looked like the real deal to me. I remember watching him play in the Blue and Gold in 2019 and I was convinced he would end up somewhere in the Valley or Horizon League and in a couple years he would lead some team to the Sweet 16 and Mizzou fans would be barking about "why didn't Coach Martin offer him?" Brazile is still kind of raw but he has taken huge strides since his days at Parkview. And he had the growth spurt. He was attracting a lot of high major interest right before he committed. Durugordon has been on campus for the last semester so you have to think that would help him adjust quicker. It's tough to know about Keita with the injury but prior to that, he looked the part. I don't know a whole lot about Kaleb Brown but if he can be like his brother then he will be a great signing.

I don't know how many of next years freshmen will be impact guys from day one. It's going to be imperative that Cuonzo land several impact transfers to bridge the gap. But I think this freshman class can be the foundation for what Martin is trying to build.

I understand the thoughts, I just think we have differing views of the ability of this class. If any of them have to be counted on in year one, I feel none are ready for that. I honestly don't think he'll get the chance to develop this class either, because they're not good enough to save his job. If year five and six have to lean on this class, he won't make it to year seven.

 

[20Tiger20]

Porter Moser would have been fired twice at Missouri already.

I understand the thoughts, I just think we have differing views of the ability of this class. If any of them have to be counted on in year one, I feel none are ready for that. I honestly don't think he'll get the chance to develop this class either, because they're not good enough to save his job. If year five and six have to lean on this class, he won't make it to year seven.

The seniors are gone. Coach has already said they have to come to him with a case as to why they should be back - it has to make sense for the player and the team. In all honestly, it's time for them to all move on. X and Braun are gone (Just a matter of time before both become official). I'm guessing one of Chang/Wilmore are gone (Preferably both). Leaves us with 5 freshmen, Brown, Javon, Watson, and one of Wilmore/Chang. I agree completely that the freshmen class isn't ready to compete next year and that roster alone would lead to 12-14 wins. Coach has to hit on the transfer market with 2-3 guys who are ready to contribute right away. Needs a PG, a big, and a shooter/scorer. The question is can he pull off a transfer class that would contain both Dru Smith and Kash level players plus a big guy. That's what is in question. However, Caleb Love would be a great starting point if the rumors at UNC are true

 

[mike37]

What rumor is that

 

[20Tiger20]

What rumor is that

That he's going to enter the transfer portal. UNC's 5* freshman 7 footer just entered the transfer portal this morning and there is speculation/rumors that Love will be soon to follow. We'll see if Roy ends up talking him into staying, but their fans aren't confident.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Porter Moser would have been fired twice at Missouri already.

I think that's an easy statement to make based on his results in his first few years at Loyola. But the big difference is, turning around a mid-major is a heckuva lot more difficult than a P5 school. First, those fledgling P5s have about 8-10 non-cons to schedule. At least a couple are slated to pay bills by taking a beating from a P5 school. Then you've got the slimmest of margins on recruits. It's not like the big boys than can go in and overhaul a roster in a year. Loyola, and all mid-majors really, are hugely dependent on four-year players. So naturally that takes a few years to flip. And he did it in that timeframe. He took them from a doormat to competitive. Then he took the next step. It's an accelerated timeframe at a P5 school. Mizzou really has no choice but to keep Martin, and it's what they should do. Financially, because of the contract Martin was able to get, it'd be silly to move on. And truthfully, he's probably going to get two more years. But man, next year could be ISU/Steve Prohm bad if he doesn't get some players in. That freshman class next year with who you think is returning isn't a 12-14 win team. It's single-digit wins. That's an OVC roster. Like maybe middle of the pack OVC roster at best. Brown isn't going to get wide open looks with no Tilmon to force doubles and digs. Pickett isn't going to get open drive lanes without the Smiths and Pinson having defenders hugged up. That roster wins 2-4 conference games. That would be bad enough to get him fired after year five, and probably should. Five years in, his roster shouldn't look like that.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

The seniors are gone. Coach has already said they have to come to him with a case as to why they should be back - it has to make sense for the player and the team. In all honestly, it's time for them to all move on. X and Braun are gone (Just a matter of time before both become official). I'm guessing one of Chang/Wilmore are gone (Preferably both). Leaves us with 5 freshmen, Brown, Javon, Watson, and one of Wilmore/Chang. I agree completely that the freshmen class isn't ready to compete next year and that roster alone would lead to 12-14 wins. Coach has to hit on the transfer market with 2-3 guys who are ready to contribute right away. Needs a PG, a big, and a shooter/scorer. The question is can he pull off a transfer class that would contain both Dru Smith and Kash level players plus a big guy. That's what is in question. However, Caleb Love would be a great starting point if the rumors at UNC are true

Your confidence in his ability to land transfers from major colleges is better than mine I think. So far Evansville and Canisius are where his big transfers come from. I guess getting Mark Smith from Illinois counts, but if memory serves Illinois wanted rid of him. For someone who hangs his hat on recruiting (or at least I guess that's where he hangs it), he hasn't really gotten quality recruits. It's been a minute since the MPJ/Jontay get. Can't live off that one forever, especially when not able to capitalize. I'd say the next few months will determine the trajectory of CMs MU tenure...That said, wouldn't surprise me if he bolted either.

 

[20Tiger20]

I think that's an easy statement to make based on his results in his first few years at Loyola. But the big difference is, turning around a mid-major is a heckuva lot more difficult than a P5 school. First, those fledgling P5s have about 8-10 non-cons to schedule. At least a couple are slated to pay bills by taking a beating from a P5 school. Then you've got the slimmest of margins on recruits. It's not like the big boys than can go in and overhaul a roster in a year. Loyola, and all mid-majors really, are hugely dependent on four-year players. So naturally that takes a few years to flip. And he did it in that timeframe. He took them from a doormat to competitive. Then he took the next step. It's an accelerated timeframe at a P5 school. Mizzou really has no choice but to keep Martin, and it's what they should do. Financially, because of the contract Martin was able to get, it'd be silly to move on. And truthfully, he's probably going to get two more years. But man, next year could be ISU/Steve Prohm bad if he doesn't get some players in. That freshman class next year with who you think is returning isn't a 12-14 win team. It's single-digit wins. That's an OVC roster. Like maybe middle of the pack OVC roster at best. Brown isn't going to get wide open looks with no Tilmon to force doubles and digs. Pickett isn't going to get open drive lanes without the Smiths and Pinson having defenders hugged up. That roster wins 2-4 conference games. That would be bad enough to get him fired after year five, and probably should. Five years in, his roster shouldn't look like that.

Porter Moser

51-67 four years at Illinois State

89-105 first six years at Loyola. Break through in year seven.

You can argue that turning around a mid-major is more challenging, while I'm going to argue that turning around a P5 program after firing a coach responsible for the worst P5 coaching record ever is equally as hard. Especially if said school has a history of not recruiting well/attracting players. You're not gaining much, if anything, by firing Martin and hiring Moser. Martin legally can't be fired without cause for 2 years, so we're stuck with him no matter what unless he leaves on his own.

My 12-14 win prediction was under the assumption we added a few average transfers to fill out the roster (I left that part out).

 

[20Tiger20]

Your confidence in his ability to land transfers from major colleges is better than mine I think. So far Evansville and Canisius are where his big transfers come from. I guess getting Mark Smith from Illinois counts, but if memory serves Illinois wanted rid of him. For someone who hangs his hat on recruiting (or at least I guess that's where he hangs it), he hasn't really gotten quality recruits. It's been a minute since the MPJ/Jontay get. Can't live off that one forever, especially when not able to capitalize. I'd say the next few months will determine the trajectory of CMs MU tenure...That said, wouldn't surprise me if he bolted either.

My confidence is low in his ability to land the type of impact transfers we need to make next year not be a complete fall off. I'm frustrated we aren't pursuing Fletcher as I don't think we have the luxury to pass on that type of potential talent. Martin obviously thinks he can land better transfers, I'm not confident.

With that said, next year is the best time ever to completely revamp your roster with the free year transfer year.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Porter Moser

51-67 four years at Illinois State

89-105 first six years at Loyola. Break through in year seven.

You can argue that turning around a mid-major is more challenging, while I'm going to argue that turning around a P5 program after firing a coach responsible for the worst P5 coaching record ever is equally as hard. Especially if said school has a history of not recruiting well/attracting players. You're not gaining much, if anything, by firing Martin and hiring Moser. Martin legally can't be fired without cause for 2 years, so we're stuck with him no matter what unless he leaves on his own.

My 12-14 win prediction was under the assumption we added a few average transfers to fill out the roster (I left that part out).

I don’t think yr seven was the break through at all. Yr four was to me. That’s when they started being competitive in conf. They were trending up, and continued on that plane. Yr seven was an anomaly with the run to the FF. That’s lightening in a bottle stuff. The story of his success at Loyola has far more to do with the conf standings than anything else. Tournament runs are such a crapshoot. Hard for me to take that more serious than a 16ish game conf standing year after year. Moser has had them in a steady incline since he took over. He’s got a formula. Can you say that about CM? And I honestly don’t get the comparison. Hell, if you want to compare it’s pretty simple really. Which coach would you rather have coaching your team? No brainer to me. Moser would take his and beat CMs. Then he’d take CMs and beat his coached by CM.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

My confidence is low in his ability to land the type of impact transfers we need to make next year not be a complete fall off. I'm frustrated we aren't pursuing Fletcher as I don't think we have the luxury to pass on that type of potential talent. Martin obviously thinks he can land better transfers, I'm not confident.

With that said, next year is the best time ever to completely revamp your roster with the free year transfer year.

Agree across the board on this.

 

[20Tiger20]

I don’t think yr seven was the break through at all. Yr four was to me. That’s when they started being competitive in conf. They were trending up, and continued on that plane. Yr seven was an anomaly with the run to the FF. That’s lightening in a bottle stuff. The story of his success at Loyola has far more to do with the conf standings than anything else. Tournament runs are such a crapshoot. Hard for me to take that more serious than a 16ish game conf standing year after year. Moser has had them in a steady incline since he took over. He’s got a formula. Can you say that about CM? And I honestly don’t get the comparison. Hell, if you want to compare it’s pretty simple really. Which coach would you rather have coaching your team? No brainer to me. Moser would take his and beat CMs. Then he’d take CMs and beat his coached by CM.

I’ve never once argued who the better coach is. The argument is you don’t fire Martin and hire Moser. If you fire Martin (2 tournament appearances in 4 years) you better damn well have someone lined up better than Moser. Anyways Martin legally can’t be fired for two years, so we’re stuck with a wait and see that happens.

 

[Veer2Eternity]

I don’t think yr seven was the break through at all. Yr four was to me. That’s when they started being competitive in conf. They were trending up, and continued on that plane. Yr seven was an anomaly with the run to the FF. That’s lightening in a bottle stuff. The story of his success at Loyola has far more to do with the conf standings than anything else. Tournament runs are such a crapshoot. Hard for me to take that more serious than a 16ish game conf standing year after year. Moser has had them in a steady incline since he took over. He’s got a formula. Can you say that about CM? And I honestly don’t get the comparison. Hell, if you want to compare it’s pretty simple really. Which coach would you rather have coaching your team? No brainer to me. Moser would take his and beat CMs. Then he’d take CMs and beat his coached by CM.

Would he beat Calipari and Self?

DOH!

 

[Eagles_Ball]

I’ve never once argued who the better coach is. The argument is you don’t fire Martin and hire Moser. If you fire Martin (2 tournament appearances in 4 years) you better damn well have someone lined up better than Moser. Anyways Martin legally can’t be fired for two years, so we’re stuck with a wait and see that happens.

Given the contract, I agree. Absent the contract, it’s a no-brainer. The contact is the real issue. Mizzou thought they had to overpay for a perceived splash. In all likelihood, the Porters were sealed with the hire. No doubt in my mind that got him the job/contract. Problem is, the Porters didn’t provide the momentum all parties thought they would. Would it have been better to try to find the next Nate Oates and not handcuff yourself?

 

[20Tiger20]

Would it have been better to try to find the next Nate Oates and not handcuff yourself?

Absolutely. Apparently the administration thought a high floor/low ceiling guy was the way to go to dig them out of the rut. Oats would of been a homerun hire (I hope IU or someone comes calling to get him out of the SEC because that guy can coach).

 

[HARDWORK3211]

Would the next Porter kid be a gamechanger for MU? I don't watch as much MU basketball as many of you but I do really like Dru Smith and think Tillmon progressed to be better than I originally thought after watching him his frosh year. Is there anyway Smith comes back for a 5th year? Moser runs great stuff at Loyola, but a lot of their 5-out actions are run through Krutwig almost being the playmaker in the middle of the floor. Much like a Nikola Jokic role and something you see oversees a lot more than here. You have to have a special big to be able to play that way and be really good at it. I don't see the bigs at MU being anywhere near that

 

[20Tiger20]

Would the next Porter kid be a gamechanger for MU? I don't watch as much MU basketball as many of you but I do really like Dru Smith and think Tillmon progressed to be better than I originally thought after watching him his frosh year. Is there anyway Smith comes back for a 5th year? Moser runs great stuff at Loyola, but a lot of their 5-out actions are run through Krutwig almost being the playmaker in the middle of the floor. Much like a Nikola Jokic role and something you see oversees a lot more than here. You have to have a special big to be able to play that way and be really good at it. I don't see the bigs at MU being anywhere near that

If you're talking about Jevon Porter he's committed to Pepperdine. I would not expect any of Mizzou's seniors back at this point as Martin has made it apparent that they would need a good reason to come back and would have to discuss with him.

 

[HARDWORK3211]

That is who I was talking about. I hadn't heard where he was going. Will be interesting to see where Martin will go with some of the open roster spots.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Moser runs great stuff at Loyola, but a lot of their 5-out actions are run through Krutwig almost being the playmaker in the middle of the floor. Much like a Nikola Jokic role and something you see oversees a lot more than here. You have to have a special big to be able to play that way and be really good at it. I don't see the bigs at MU being anywhere near that

Man, that's the Majerus effect. It's like watching his SLU teams all over again. Such pretty hoops.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Pinson--SR
Watson--SR
Pickett--SR
Chang--SR
Brown--JR
Braun--JR
Wilmore--SO
Brookshire--FR
Brown--FR
Durugordon--FR
Brazile--FR
Keita--FR

One scholly left if they all return. Who do you think is gone?

 

[20Tiger20]

Someone is going to get a good guard in Brandon McKissic (UMKC). Lot's of SLU connections. Both Mizzou and SLU have reached out.

 

[20Tiger20]

Pinson--SR
Watson--SR
Pickett--SR
Chang--SR
Brown--JR
Braun--JR
Wilmore--SO
Brookshire--FR
Brown--FR
Durugordon--FR
Brazile--FR
Keita--FR

One scholly left if they all return. Who do you think is gone?

Pinson 100% gone
Braun 75% gone
I expect one of Chang/Wilmore to be gone.

 

[mizzourahfan]

Pinson--SR
Watson--SR
Pickett--SR
Chang--SR
Brown--JR
Braun--JR
Wilmore--SO
Brookshire--FR
Brown--FR
Durugordon--FR
Brazile--FR
Keita--FR

One scholly left if they all return. Who do you think is gone?

Here's my projected roster:

Watson--SR
Pickett--SR
Brown--JR
Brookshire--FR
Brown--FR
Durugordon--FR
Brazile--FR
Keita--FR

Could be okay if you get 3 transfers that can fill a big, PG and SG role. I know that is a big if, but there are more transfers now than ever. Maybe throw in Cam Fletcher and Caleb Love (I know this is also wishful thinking)

 

[mike37]

Kim English to George Mason. Maybe in a couple of years he lands at MIZZOU

 

[20Tiger20]

Kim English to George Mason. Maybe in a couple of years he lands at MIZZOU

The stars are aligning for this to happen. Martin has for sure two years left which gives Kimmie two years to prove himself at GM.