Miller and Scout prefer the one in the middle

[Neutron Monster]

Your naïve belief that Vladimir Putin and the Iranians will simply get rid of the JV team then go home represents the differences between us.

You have more in common with Neville Chamberlain than you think ...

That is not my belief. In fact, my belief is the opposite for now - Assad + Russia want to get Syria down to ISIS and the government so the only choice left is Assad.

If you'd stop making things up like above and start thinking about what we can actually accomplish you might come up with some better ideas. I have yet to see anyone propose a real good outcome for what we can do in Syria with the military going gung ho right now. There's only so much to bomb (we're already doing that). Arming people like crazy means you're arming our enemies in the long run. We don't want to fight a ground war because we are not interested in holding territory (and rightfully so). There are no good allies on the ground for the US besides maybe the Kurds, but they do not have the ability to take on both ISIS and Assad. Where does that leave us? The uncomfortable truth that I see is that we can't really "fix" Syria right now, and it's naive to pretend otherwise.

This is the real naivete - the belief that the US has some magic military wand that can fix the world's problems.

Neville Chamberlain is a worthless comparison to what we are doing in the Middle East, and you look silly when you bring it up. We are facing a very different situation (a sectarian civil war) with very different players.

 

[Neutron Monster]

Neutron was correct Veer, you are a sad little person with no hope for the future.

Your assessment of the Beirut Bombing response was based more on hate, than intellect... but for the record.

Joint Air Strikes with France along with naval bombardment from the USS New Jersey countered the Iranian backed attack.

Perhaps Middle East politics is not what really upsets you but rather your own insecurities. Why not be honest with yourself and just admit that you need a friend?

Expect is good in that area, give him a shout!
Gotta go, latter...

This is ridiculous, Lebanon remained in a civil war for DECADES after we left, with the ultimate result being Lebanon existing as a de facto client state of Syria with a large portion of the country under the control of Hezbollah. The idea that Reagan's bombs somehow countered our enemies is an outright lie.

Reagan realized the uncomfortable truth - he couldn't do anything in Lebanon, and it isn't strategically important to us, so he left it to the wolves.

 

[Neutron Monster]

I guess since the Middle East tribes have been at war since the beginning of time Russia will go in and finally we will have peace in the region and Obama could have easily done it if he was just a strong white man UHGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG Like Bush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is this idea among many on the right that we can go in, wave our you know whats around, and everything will be solved because our machismo is so powerful. How well did that work in Afghanistan and Iraq? These are really complicated places and our military is usually not the best option for how to build a more sustainable environment over there.

 

[Scout 4u]

There is this idea among many on the right that we can go in, wave our you know whats around, and everything will be solved because our machismo is so powerful. How well did that work in Afghanistan and Iraq? These are really complicated places and our military is usually not the best option for how to build a more sustainable environment over there.

True Putin's army is much better suited to indiscriminately target schools, hospitals, civilian work spaces and non military installations.
He should have no problem putting the same kind of terror into the eyes of ISIS that they have put in others.

Once this is all over, who do you think the people of Syria will respect?

The country half way around the world that left them to be massacred by ISIS or the country that is now on the "ground" in the process of exterminating their killers?

At last count 275,000 have died since we let ISIS cross the RED LINE in Syria.

 

[Duck_walk]

True Putin's army is much better suited to indiscriminately target schools, hospitals, civilian work spaces and non military installations.
He should have no problem putting the same kind of terror into the eyes of ISIS that they have put in others.

Once this is all over, who do you think the people of Syria will respect?

The country half way around the world that left them to be massacred by ISIS or the country that is now on the "ground" in the process of exterminating their killers?

At last count 275,000 have died since we let ISIS cross the RED LINE in Syria.

So our goal as a country is to have respect from the people of Syria? Where is that written in your constitution? If you were really a tea party person, you wouldn't even want us involved. You, sir, are a fraud.

 

[vbsideout]

Jeez Syria is not going to respect us. I feel awful.

 

[Neutron Monster]

True Putin's army is much better suited to indiscriminately target schools, hospitals, civilian work spaces and non military installations.
He should have no problem putting the same kind of terror into the eyes of ISIS that they have put in others.

Once this is all over, who do you think the people of Syria will respect?

The country half way around the world that left them to be massacred by ISIS or the country that is now on the "ground" in the process of exterminating their killers?

At last count 275,000 have died since we let ISIS cross the RED LINE in Syria.

The entire problem with this point is it presumes we have a magic power to end hostilities and violence.

Syria is a total mess and it would be one even if we had taken Assad out.

This is the most ridiculous thing about the entire right wing criticism here - what, exactly, is the plan you propose, what are your goals, and how does that plan achieve the goals? I haven't seen a single person come up with a good answer for how amped up military involvement makes things better in the short and long run.

 

[Scout 4u]

The entire problem with this point is it presumes we have a magic power to end hostilities and violence.

Syria is a total mess and it would be one even if we had taken Assad out.

This is the most ridiculous thing about the entire right wing criticism here - what, exactly, is the plan you propose, what are your goals, and how does that plan achieve the goals? I haven't seen a single person come up with a good answer for how amped up military involvement makes things better in the short and long run.

Ok, I'll give you the answer.
Draw a RED LINE in the sand, then dare anyone to cross it.

My uncle fought in WWII. This is just one "battle" from that war.

Okinawa Japan, 1945
(April -June)
US 20,000+ deaths
55,000 wounded

12 Destroyers sunk
15 Amphibious ships sunk
386 ships damaged
763 Aircraft
225 tanks

40,000+ civilians killed

In a three month period more Americans died in a "battle" than the Gulf War, Iraq War and Falkland War combined .

Can you honestly say that if the same battle were to be fought today, with the same results, you would still be behind the war effort ?????
NOT!

Guess what, the Russian leadership would. They have no problem taking 20,000 casualties in a "battle" if it means a chance to bring back the Old Soviet Union.

Barack Obama has let Putin fortify the west coast of Syria, consolidate forces with the Iranians in Iraq and set up a No Fly Zone against our own pilot's sorties in Western Syria.

Oil is now the only thing missing from the resurgence of the Soviet Empire.

We as a country all share in responsibility for letting it happen.

 

[The Rumor]

Your posts in this thread are just word salad.

There is really no comparison between ww2 and Syria. The players and situation are totally different.

 

[Neutron Monster]

So our goal as a country is to have respect from the people of Syria? Where is that written in your constitution? If you were really a tea party person, you wouldn't even want us involved. You, sir, are a fraud.

they want their big government, one that kills people overseas (with bombs) and at home (through inaction)

 

[3Rfan]

True Putin's army is much better suited to indiscriminately target schools, hospitals, civilian work spaces and non military installations.
He should have no problem putting the same kind of terror into the eyes of ISIS that they have put in others.

Once this is all over, who do you think the people of Syria will respect?

The country half way around the world that left them to be massacred by ISIS or the country that is now on the "ground" in the process of exterminating their killers?

At last count 275,000 have died since we let ISIS cross the RED LINE in Syria.

You think the Syrians will respect Putin after he has been bombing THEM instead of ISIS to make sure Asaad stays in power?

 

[Scout 4u]

Your posts in this thread are just word salad.

There is really no comparison between ww2 and Syria. The players and situation are totally different.

You think the Syrians will respect Putin after he has been bombing THEM instead of ISIS to make sure Asaad stays in power?

Syria will respect Putin the same way Crimea does.

What part of bombing Hospitals, Schools or Civilians that you don't understand?

You guys give the Dove Party new meaning.

A decade under Russian rule might give you a different perspective on "respect".

 

[The Rumor]

Syria will respect Putin the same way Crimea does.

What part of bombing Hospitals, Schools or Civilians that you don't understand?

You guys give the Dove Party new meaning.

A decade under Russian rule might give you a different perspective on "respect".

It's not about being a hawk or a dove, it's about having a logical plan. I am not philosophically opposed to being more involved in Syria if it would help. No one has defined how it would help in the long run.

We saw in Iraq what happens when you send in the troops with no long term plan. To a certain extent that is true of Afghanistan as well.

 

[Scout 4u]

It's not about being a hawk or a dove, it's about having a logical plan. I am not philosophically opposed to being more involved in Syria if it would help. No one has defined how it would help in the long run.

We saw in Iraq what happens when you send in the troops with no long term plan. To a certain extent that is true of Afghanistan as well.

I am not saying that I have all the answers or even that we need to take on the Russian Navy or Air Force.

What I am saying is that the US military strategy in the past has always been to take the hill then hold it, at all cost.

It could be argued that whether you approve or not of the invasion of Iraq. The overall occupation was relatively under control after the Surge and right up to the date when all major offensive forces were withdrawn.

Bush warned that an early withdraw would only put US back there again at a later date against a more deadly enemy.

That enemy is now Iran with the backing of the Russian military.

 

[Expect2Win]

Neutron was correct Veer, you are a sad little person with no hope for the future.

Your assessment of the Beirut Bombing response was based more on hate, than intellect... but for the record.

Joint Air Strikes with France along with naval bombardment from the USS New Jersey countered the Iranian backed attack.

Perhaps Middle East politics is not what really upsets you but rather your own insecurities. Why not be honest with yourself and just admit that you need a friend?

Expect is good in that area, give him a shout!
Gotta go, latter...

Scout,
Is that supposed to be a shot at me?
Also you never responded when I asked when Saddam was attacking us.

 

[Neutron Monster]

I am not saying that I have all the answers or even that we need to take on the Russian Navy or Air Force.

What I am saying is that the US military strategy in the past has always been to take the hill then hold it, at all cost.

It could be argued that whether you approve or not of the invasion of Iraq. The overall occupation was relatively under control after the Surge and right up to the date when all major offensive forces were withdrawn.

Bush warned that an early withdraw would only put US back there again at a later date against a more deadly enemy.

That enemy is now Iran with the backing of the Russian military.

And I'm saying that strategy was god awful in Iraq/Vietnam and it would be god awful in Syria. "Hold" is not a long-term strategy; it is a short-term bridge to a long term goal. "Hold" fails in the long run unless you have the ability to establish a government and a military that have popular support.

Bush set the Iraq withdrawal schedule! Jeez. Do you live in a fact free world? Just because Cheney gets on Fox news and complains that we don't have 1 gazillion troops everywhere doesn't mean they were actually planning on leaving people in Iraq forever.

The fact is we didn't have people coming from Iraq to kill us in 2001-2003. We created a mess that we don't know how to clean up. Here we are 12.5 years later and it's now a regional war.

 

[Expect2Win]

And I'm saying that strategy was god awful in Iraq/Vietnam and it would be god awful in Syria. "Hold" is not a long-term strategy; it is a short-term bridge to a long term goal. "Hold" fails in the long run unless you have the ability to establish a government and a military that have popular support.

Bush set the Iraq withdrawal schedule! Jeez. Do you live in a fact free world? Just because Cheney gets on Fox news and complains that we don't have 1 gazillion troops everywhere doesn't mean they were actually planning on leaving people in Iraq forever.

The fact is we didn't have people coming from Iraq to kill us in 2001-2003. We created a mess that we don't know how to clean up. Here we are 12.5 years later and it's now a regional war.

When Bush set the Iraq withdrawal schedule, wasn't Cheney kind of out of favor in the White House at that point? The last year or so Bush wasn't listening to him as much as he did in the beginning. He may have an issue with Bush's plan also.

 

[Neutron Monster]

When Bush set the Iraq withdrawal schedule, wasn't Cheney kind of out of favor in the White House at that point? The last year or so Bush wasn't listening to him as much as he did in the beginning. He may have an issue with Bush's plan also.

It was pretty clear by the end that Condi and the other non-warmongers had risen and Cheney/Rumsfeld had fallen.

 

[Scout 4u]

Scout,
Is that supposed to be a shot at me?
Also you never responded when I asked when Saddam was attacking us.

No I wasn't taking a shot at you, more of a counter punch at Veer. The guy has issues...
I still like him though...

As for Saddam, History matters.

1980 - Saddam invades Iran.
Beginning of a (8) year war that killed 100's of thousands on both sides. First introduction to WMD's.

1981- Osirak Reactor inside Iraq bombed by Israel. Sorties were flown with American made F16 falcons.

1982 - Dujail Iraq; Saddam in retaliation for an assassination attempt, orders his army to attack the city and take prisoners. 1500 were tortured, their families killed.

1988 - Halabja Iraq; Saddam again uses WMD's, killing over 5000 of his own people.

1988 - Saddam orders a suppression of Kurd opposition in Northern Iraq.
Result; 180,000+ Kurds missing bodies found later during American Iraq War, many buried alive.

1990 - Saddam invades Kuwait; Orders the Republican Guard to retaliate on Kuwaiti Officials who refused to forgive debt acquired durning Iraq/Iran War.

1990 - Orders military to take all Kuwaiti Oil Fields. Masses troops for surge into Saudi Arabia on Kuwait, Southern Iraq boarder. Has navy run exploratory missions offshore Saudi Oil fields.
Has army steal all Kuwaiti wealth and send it back to Baghdad.

1991 Persian Gulf War -
US begins what would be an another decade of fighting with Saddam Hussein.

Could have added another 50 acts of environmental and human destruction by Saddam before 1991 but I think you get the point.

 

[3Rfan]

No I wasn't taking a shot at you, more of a counter punch at Veer. The guy has issues...
I still like him though...

As for Saddam, History matters.

1980 - Saddam invades Iran.
Beginning of a (8) year war that killed 100's of thousands on both sides. First introduction to WMD's.

1981- Osirak Reactor inside Iraq bombed by Israel. Sorties were flown with American made F16 falcons.

1982 - Dujail Iraq; Saddam in retaliation for an assassination attempt, orders his army to attack the city and take prisoners. 1500 were tortured, their families killed.

1988 - Halabja Iraq; Saddam again uses WMD's, killing over 5000 of his own people.

1988 - Saddam orders a suppression of Kurd opposition in Northern Iraq.
Result; 180,000+ Kurds missing bodies found later during American Iraq War, many buried alive.

1990 - Saddam invades Kuwait; Orders the Republican Guard to retaliate on Kuwaiti Officials who refused to forgive debt acquired durning Iraq/Iran War.

1990 - Orders military to take all Kuwaiti Oil Fields. Masses troops for surge into Saudi Arabia on Kuwait, Southern Iraq boarder. Has navy run exploratory missions offshore Saudi Oil fields.
Has army steal all Kuwaiti wealth and send it back to Baghdad.

1991 Persian Gulf War -
US begins what would be an another decade of fighting with Saddam Hussein.

Could have added another 50 acts of environmental and human destruction by Saddam before 1991 but I think you get the point.

And they all play so nice with each other since Saddam is gone. Those folks have been fighting forever and will still be fighting no matter what we do or how long we try to do it.

 

[Scout 4u]

And they all play so nice with each other since Saddam is gone. Those folks have been fighting forever and will still be fighting no matter what we do or how long we try to do it.

I guess I will have to disagree with you on that one 3r.
Bush trained, funded and freed all of ISIS. Though they did not know how to decapitate their Christian victims at first, Bush taught them.

Did you know that their only a JV team ???

 

[Duck_walk]

I guess I will have to disagree with you on that one 3r.
Bush trained, funded and freed all of ISIS. Though they did not know how to decapitate their Christian victims at first, Bush taught them.

Did you know that their only a JV team ???

I know of a few they could decap over here.

 

[Scout 4u]

I know of a few they could decap over here.

Yes you do !

 

[3Rfan]

I guess I will have to disagree with you on that one 3r.
Bush trained, funded and freed all of ISIS. Though they did not know how to decapitate their Christian victims at first, Bush taught them.

Did you know that their only a JV team ???

Bush taught them how to decapitate people? I guess I missed that that report on 60 minutes or anywhere else.

 

[Scout 4u]

Bush taught them how to decapitate people? I guess I missed that that report on 60 minutes or anywhere else.

I read all the time on here that BUSH created ISIS. Stand behind your beliefs.

 

[Skeeter_McCormack]

I read all the time on here that BUSH created ISIS. Stand behind your beliefs.

Thing he did during his presidency directly contributed to the creation of ISIS, do you disagree?

 

[Scout 4u]

Thing he did during his presidency directly contributed to the creation of ISIS, do you disagree?

I agree that Saddam held the country together with brutality. Not a real surprise that when freed retribution was on their mind.

Will admit that ISIS even by terrorist standards are the worst of the worst.

Unfortunately the only one group that has what it takes to reign them in are the Russians.

Putin will have no problem bombing schools and hospitals to root them out.

 

[3Rfan]

I agree that Saddam held the country together with brutality. Not a real surprise that when freed retribution was on their mind.

Will admit that ISIS even by terrorist standards are the worst of the worst.

Unfortunately the only one group that has what it takes to reign them in are the Russians.

Putin will have no problem bombing schools and hospitals to root them out.

The problem is Putin is not bombing ISIS, he's bombing the Syrian fighters that are against Asaad. I guess you think it's ok to bomb schools and hospitals on purpose to get to the bad guys? It happens by accident in war sometimes but it should not be a regular practice just because somebody you want to kill might be in there.

 

[vbsideout]

No I wasn't taking a shot at you, more of a counter punch at Veer. The guy has issues...
I still like him though...

As for Saddam, History matters.

1980 - Saddam invades Iran.
Beginning of a (8) year war that killed 100's of thousands on both sides. First introduction to WMD's.

1981- Osirak Reactor inside Iraq bombed by Israel. Sorties were flown with American made F16 falcons.

1982 - Dujail Iraq; Saddam in retaliation for an assassination attempt, orders his army to attack the city and take prisoners. 1500 were tortured, their families killed.

1988 - Halabja Iraq; Saddam again uses WMD's, killing over 5000 of his own people.

1988 - Saddam orders a suppression of Kurd opposition in Northern Iraq.
Result; 180,000+ Kurds missing bodies found later during American Iraq War, many buried alive.

1990 - Saddam invades Kuwait; Orders the Republican Guard to retaliate on Kuwaiti Officials who refused to forgive debt acquired durning Iraq/Iran War.


















1990 - Orders military to take all Kuwaiti Oil Fields. Masses troops for surge into Saudi Arabia on Kuwait, Southern Iraq boarder. Has navy run exploratory missions offshore Saudi Oil fields.
Has army steal all Kuwaiti wealth and send it back to Baghdad.

1991 Persian Gulf War -
US begins what would be an another decade of fighting with Saddam Hussein.

Could have added another 50 acts of environmental and human destruction by Saddam before 1991 but I think you get the point.

If history matters then when was the last time there was a lasting peace in the Middle East? Never is the answer and yet you think US intervention will change that fact. At what cost in our sons and daughters and money. It's just not worth it when failure is the only out come.

 

[Scout 4u]

The problem is Putin is not bombing ISIS, he's bombing the Syrian fighters that are against Asaad. I guess you think it's ok to bomb schools and hospitals on purpose to get to the bad guys? It happens by accident in war sometimes but it should not be a regular practice just because somebody you want to kill might be in there.

Read 3r, read...
My response to an earlier post above was that Syria would "respect" Russia because "they" would have no problem bombing schools and hospitals.

That is not an endorsement of those policies, just a stated fact of what it takes to get their attention.

True, bombing Anti-Syrian rebels is Putin's goal for now. Once dealt with his eyes will turn to ISIS. They believe in Russia's RED LINE.

 

[Scout 4u]

If history matters then when was the last time there was a lasting peace in the Middle East? Never is the answer and yet you think US intervention will change that fact. At what cost in our sons and daughters and money. It's just not worth it when failure is the only out come.

John Testrake Flight 847
How soon we forget...

 

[3Rfan]

Read 3r, read...
My response to an earlier post above was that Syria would "respect" Russia because "they" would have no problem bombing schools and hospitals.

That is not an endorsement of those policies, just a stated fact of what it takes to get their attention.

True, bombing Anti-Syrian rebels is Putin's goal for now. Once dealt with his eyes will turn to ISIS. They believe in Russia's RED LINE.

I assume that will only the Syrians that want their current leader to stay in power. Your post about respect did not mentioned Putin bombing schools and hospitals.

 

[Scout 4u]

John Testrake Flight 847
How soon we forget...

We will either take the fight to them or they will bring it to US.

 

[Scout 4u]

I assume that will only the Syrians that want their current leader to stay in power. Your post about respect did not mentioned Putin bombing schools and hospitals.

Read again !!!
Thurs 10:59 PM
Syria will "respect" Putin the same way Crimea does.
What part of bombing Hospitals and schools do you not understand ?

 

[Neutron Monster]

We will either take the fight to them or they will bring it to US.

That's not an argument to oppose Assad/Russia/Iran/Shia Iraq

 

[Scout 4u]

That's not an argument to oppose Assad/Russia/Iran/Shia Iraq

Lost me on that one?

 

[Neutron Monster]

Lost me on that one?

they are opponents of islamic terrorist groups.

Another example of how Syria is a total mess.

 

[Scout 4u]

they are opponents of islamic terrorist groups.

Another example of how Syria is a total mess.

Agreed, thanks for clarification .