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Maxine Waters...shows us the bias of our news and talking heads.

bullitpdq68

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Sep 22, 2005
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First if you are a Pub and didn't stand up to Trump you need to sit down and shut up about Maxine Waters...
Second if you are a Dem and you had issues with Trump you need to be also calling out Waters...
But nope that is not what we are seeing again if a politician hails from your party they can do no wrong...
This is what I despise about party affiliation, they are ran like the moffa they are blind to thier own issues staring them in the face, we see it with Trump calling Pubs disloyal if you disagree with what he says.
And the Media doesn't help I have seen both the liberal and the conservative spin it and shape how they think thier party should see it.
Just is terrible and disgusting.
 
I have no problem with calling Maxine out for her comments. Waters, AOC, and Omar are radicals and don't represent the majority of Dems views.

They are really nothing more than easy boogeymen...er...persons?...for righties to get people good and proper outraged when they say something extreme. Obviously, the lefties have plenty of their own boogeyfolk when the outrage machine is needed as well.
 
Waters probably should be censured and lose some of her committee assignments. I am not sure what else could be done, it would be great if she got primaried and got out of there, but I don't know if the dems will.
I don't think and hope that what she did will make any difference on appeal.
 
I have no problem with calling Maxine out for her comments. Waters, AOC, and Omar are radicals and don't represent the majority of Dems views.


I think you are clearly in error on this and living in the past. Maybe dem's over 35 or 40 think differently but the new wave of voters are radicals. That is why my GF and Several of her friends Old School Clinton Dem's held their Nose and voted for Trump. The Leftist Radicals young and dumb are what Biden got and needed to get elected. Old Uncle Bernie's Voters and the new Wave Radicals have joined forces.....Look at Biden's current Policies and they Don't in anyway Reflect Old school democratic values.
 
I think you are clearly in error on this and living in the past. Maybe dem's over 35 or 40 think differently but the new wave of voters are radicals. That is why my GF and Several of her friends Old School Clinton Dem's held their Nose and voted for Trump. The Leftist Radicals young and dumb are what Biden got and needed to get elected. Old Uncle Bernie's Voters and the new Wave Radicals have joined forces.....Look at Biden's current Policies and they Don't in anyway Reflect Old school democratic values.

Political rhetoric has shifted so far to the right that the Republican policy positions of yesteryear are now seemingly the purview of "radical leftists." Traditional conservative policy positions aren't actually traditional, they're just incidental to the political moment and will change the moment the party finds them inconvenient (see: government spending/fiscal responsibility in years where Republicans are in power).

Ronald Reagan's conservative values are supposedly at the heart of most modern Republican thought/policy, almost to the point of worship. However, if you need me to wreck that version of Reagan for you, I can do that because the Reagan that many conservatives worship, interestingly enough, isn't exactly the actual Reagan of very well-documented public policy (and public statements).

Also, the tired rhetoric of the youth being dumb and radical has been played out for 2,500 years, probably more.
And another: Why the old look down on the young. Give it a rest. I am no spring chicken myself, but I generally prefer to choose to use metacognition instead of confirmation bias whenever I start to have those youth-hating moments crop up in my mind (and they definitely crop up).
 
Well I guess when the younger radical Dem's stop rioting, looting, and touting up a failed economic system and checking off every box in the Marxist playbook then I might give it a rest. I'm not saying all Millennials/GenZ are in that mold but a vast amount of them are.



Although I agree that every Generation does sort of see the next as lesser in some respects. But they are not always wrong either in that regard.


 
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Well I guess when the younger radical Dem's stop rioting, looting, and touting up a failed economic system and checking off every box in the Marxist playbook then I might give it a rest. I'm not saying all Millennials/GenZ are in that mold but a vast amount of them are.



Although I agree that every Generation does sort of see the next as lesser in some respects. But they are not always wrong either in that regard.

You mean like your generation in their younger days? And literally every single generation before (and will be after)? Also, let's not brazenly set aside the fact that some distinctively non-Democrats attempted to change the results of an election with the threat (and the actuality) of violence just a few short months ago based on something that they all believe, but can't actually produce real-life evidence for. Hmm...come to think of it, that's actually a feature of many, many aspects of their lives, so it's pretty much on-brand.

As much as we all wish there were, there are no such things as the "good ol' days" when everything was idyllic and perfect. There has been some sort of unrest at every point in our history, and it hasn't always been "radical" Democrats. Don't take my word for it, though, feel free to do the research yourself. You might be disappointed in some of the things conservative folks have chosen to violently protest about.

Of course they people don't think they are wrong about a value judgment of the next generation's "failings." But it must be seen for what it is: a biased value judgment, it can't help but be anything but that. It's certainly not an objective truth as we often pretend it is.
 
My generation never rioted or even protested to any degree and those that happened where isolated to a few metro area's.....many of us hated the Hippies that came before us in the 60's and 70's dirty, disgusting nut jobs that became yuppies and infiltrated the system in a clear effort to change it..

We listened to Heavy Metal/Hair Bands and embraced capitalism to party and make money aka the generation of Greed. And we GenX /Older Millennials raised a bunch of entitled Radicals aka the younger Millennials and Gen Z that are causing a lot of the issues. That is on many of us there is no question about that. Not unlike the Baby Boomers born to parents in the 50's who became the Hippies in the 60's.

And yes the conservative party hasn't always been on the right side of history and has many warts and scars and of course a LOT of stuff is much better today than in even the recent past. Life expectancy is better, child mortality is Vastly better, extreme poverty is down to 10% compared to 90% in the 1800's and Violent crimes fell almost 50% since the 1990's. So I'm well aware that today in a lot of ways is the good ole days.

But that is not my OP.....it's about the Radicalization of the Democratic Party and the denial of the Old Guard to see it happening. And how they want a massive divide which they have achieved.

Also don't overstate the intentions of a few hundred knuckle heads who where allowed to enter the capital and then tried to steal some gov. property as souvenirs ...took a whole bunch of selfie's and video's without masks incriminating themselves and walked around with No clear plan or any central organization that was then labeled a insurrection in a blatant Media lie, sure criminal behavior, looting and blatant ignorance but not a violent attempt to overthrow of the gov. only person who died was a rioter and those involved should be and are being punished .......

You can't in anyway compare that with a Coordinated decades long attack on the Republic....that plan has now weaponized whole vast groups of the radical youths into riots, property damage in the billions, the death of innocents, the call for Defunding the Police which has led to the loss of civil control of area's in major cities.


Even Now the Portland mayor who embraced, supported and welcomed the Rioters has now called for the city to unmask and take back control.....LOL and you reap what you sow.....Jeez he now sounds like a conservative.



See this is the issue the Old guard in error believed they could control the Radical left in their party and that weaponizing them against Trump was wonderful strategy and that once Trump was defeated the Status Quo would once again settle in. But that is not the goal of the Radicals. Their goal is clearly stated...they are trained Marxist and they want to Change the whole system and power structure.
 
The issue I see is both parties attack the other on issues... and then want to act all b&TT hurt when they are attached backed.

I agree if you look back thru history it is never as grand as many of us remember back in the good ole days...we were just younger, I have noticed as I get older I do pay more attention to what goes on in the world and around me and I do try to restrain myself from the knee jerk reactions of my younger days.

But what I do miss about the good ole days is when the parties actually worked together and got stuff done. The issue is you are never going to please everybody 100% of the time if you want to get something done. So now both sides just wait until they get control and then ram thier agenda thru as fast as they can with no help from the other side. Then the other party just sits there waiting to get voted back in to do it all over again. There is no working together for long term solutions. You hear it from business and leaders all the time, what is going to happen during the next election cycle let's just wait it out?

It use to be both sides would hammer out things and compromise and now that is a dirty word....
 
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You are misinformed about the intentions of the Capitol rioters and the level of planning and coordination involved for many of the groups there (though not every individual who was there, of course). Turns out, they were foolishly out in the open about a lot of it (you may note that these are all sourced from right to center-right publications): Dumb online activity, Conspiracy charges and Actions on the day of the riot.

I'm most befuddled by this statement:
"You can't in anyway compare that with a Coordinated decades long attack on the Republic...." When they literally physically attacked the institutions of the Republic.

This is a unique take on what is probably more accurately characterized as an attack on your (and others') personal political beliefs rather than an attack on the Republic. Your political beliefs (mine, too) do not the Republic make. In fact, the Republic is not meant to be an unchangeable monolith; baked into our governing document are directions on how to change it (Article V). The Republic is supposed to be a reflection of how the majority of people wish to rule and be ruled...which can and should change over time. That's the American Experiment, or at least that's what it's supposed to be.

Although I completely agree that the Democratic party has moved much farther left than they used to be, you can't say that without acknowledging how far right the Republican party has also moved...and for the exact same reason: to use the extremists in the party (which they also lost control of). And to call them "trained Marxists" is a bit melodramatic and definitely an overstatement. Quoting (or misquoting) a few of Karl Marx's sayings off of BrainyQuote does not make a "trained Marxist."

There is a fundamental flaw that we gloss over when looking at who does the protesting and rioting and who doesn't. People in a position of power or privilege have few reasons to protest or riot......except when their power or privilege is challenged. And when they do "protest," it often looks different from a "riot," but its intent is unmistakably to keep the status quo, regardless of its flaws, by whatever means is at their disposal, violent or otherwise, legal or not.

Also, a lot of people have some unflattering opinions about us Gen-Xers and our role in creating the world we live in today. I don't know that I agree on all counts, but we certainly do bear some of the blame.
 
Well I guess when the younger radical Dem's stop rioting, looting, and touting up a failed economic system and checking off every box in the Marxist playbook then I might give it a rest. I'm not saying all Millennials/GenZ are in that mold but a vast amount of them are.



Although I agree that every Generation does sort of see the next as lesser in some respects. But they are not always wrong either in that regard.


How many of those you speak of do you think have any freakin idea what Marxism is? 🤔
 
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You are misinformed about the intentions of the Capitol rioters and the level of planning and coordination involved for many of the groups there (though not every individual who was there, of course). Turns out, they were foolishly out in the open about a lot of it (you may note that these are all sourced from right to center-right publications): Dumb online activity, Conspiracy charges and Actions on the day of the riot.

I'm most befuddled by this statement:
"You can't in anyway compare that with a Coordinated decades long attack on the Republic...." When they literally physically attacked the institutions of the Republic.

This is a unique take on what is probably more accurately characterized as an attack on your (and others') personal political beliefs rather than an attack on the Republic. Your political beliefs (mine, too) do not the Republic make. In fact, the Republic is not meant to be an unchangeable monolith; baked into our governing document are directions on how to change it (Article V). The Republic is supposed to be a reflection of how the majority of people wish to rule and be ruled...which can and should change over time. That's the American Experiment, or at least that's what it's supposed to be.

Although I completely agree that the Democratic party has moved much farther left than they used to be, you can't say that without acknowledging how far right the Republican party has also moved...and for the exact same reason: to use the extremists in the party (which they also lost control of). And to call them "trained Marxists" is a bit melodramatic and definitely an overstatement. Quoting (or misquoting) a few of Karl Marx's sayings off of BrainyQuote does not make a "trained Marxist."

There is a fundamental flaw that we gloss over when looking at who does the protesting and rioting and who doesn't. People in a position of power or privilege have few reasons to protest or riot......except when their power or privilege is challenged. And when they do "protest," it often looks different from a "riot," but its intent is unmistakably to keep the status quo, regardless of its flaws, by whatever means is at their disposal, violent or otherwise, legal or not.

Also, a lot of people have some unflattering opinions about us Gen-Xers and our role in creating the world we live in today. I don't know that I agree on all counts, but we certainly do bear some of the blame.
You can't compare the online activity of a couple of a couple of hundred loosely affiliated people with no central organization and limited funds to Let's say BLM.... who has near a hundred Million in monetary backing and Millions of Foot soldiers who have been doing their biding for almost a year now. Gotta give them credit though they have low overhead only spent around 8 million in operating expenses.


I mean let's be real if this Organization had the thousands of ex-vets and LEO at their disposal that is claimed.... with them being well armed and trained would the storming of the capital of been so hap hazard, full of confusion, and without purpose. People not hiding their identity, videoing and posting what is going on and trying to loot gov. trinkets?
I'm not saying that some nut jobs where not communicating via online communication but what ever they are doing is laughable and 100% ineffective and destined to fail at every turn. Hand signals and a supposed pipe bomb that didn't even go off....you know all these former LEO military people incapable of building a simple pipe bomb and not capable of using basic breach and sweep tactics either to secure and control the capital to stop the electoral process.

Come on compare that to BLM/Antifa well funded, laying siege to federal property for weeks....burning Police Stations, Killing Civilians and LEO as well. They even strong armed whole municipalities into letting them control area's of a City Chaz/Chad and even changed the way police engage dangerous and criminal behavior because of the fear they instilled in the elected community leaders. Got millions of idiot foot soldiers believing the dogma and you can blackmail those in power.


And then compare that to this


Sure those people are breaking the law, misguided, pizzed off/mad has heck disenfranchised and look foolish as all get out.... but they are anything but well organized and there with a legit plan...to over throw the gov.


I mean If BLM/Antifa had stormed the Capital it would of been much more effective and I could easily see them taking control of the location for a extended time period. I give them credit they are way better funded have way more supporters and have a legit organization who's leaders have stated goals and actual plan that has toppled democracy's in the past. Venezuela, Cuba, etc.

I never gave much credit or credence to protesting and such....I always felt that it was ineffective, a cathartic release of emotion and frustration that made all involved look like buffoons....ie see the Capital rioters classic emotional protestors/rioters who accomplished nothing but felt like they had.....But in doing a little research it became clear that I was wrong that the Marxist/Leftist power heads have used Protesting and riots that are well coordinated to their advantage from the onset.


And Yes Most people who have a nice lifestyle and feel vested have zero reason to protest or riot.....that is unless you drink the flavor-aid that the System is systemically racist and oppressive based on propaganda and lies. The system that elects black presidents, black congressmen, has had black Attorney Generals, elects the Squad self proclaimed leftist......the system where the richest women in America is black. The system that has black LEO officers, the system that has laws making racism illegal and punishable.

But that doesn't matter as long as you believe that it's racist and evil and needs to be toppled.....same as those who believe that the election was stolen different sides of the same coin. But the Biggest difference is that one side has Millions of followers with Millions of Dollars and a legit Plan the other side is a bunch of knuckle heads screaming Trump Got cheated and then posting about it....so the gov. can then find them and convict them.....

I mean the only way to get the working and and middle class on board with division is to alienate and demonize the other political side as racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, homophobic and less than human. Of course in response the other side feels threatened, disenfranchised and ultimately distrustful. That culminates into irrational behavior. This works in the favor of those who want to fundamentally change the system.

As far as Gen-X's go I think as I stated our biggest failure is our kids...we raised them to be entitled and spoiled... My daughter told me one of her College Prof. said that Gen-Xs and Millennials/GenZ had a hard time coexisting in work because GenX didn't like all the BS questioning, complaining and entitlement. GenX's where just shut up and Grind it out....the opposite of the younger generation.

She agreed and I agreed that was correct(yes small sample size) and that was part of our conflict. Cause My Ex-Wife always made excuses and helicopter parented her going to the school to smooth or manipulate everything I was who cares small potatoes just work through it of course I lost every time ...most of the wives of my friends who are teachers also admit they have spoiled and entitled all their children as well and created problems.
 
How many of those you speak of do you think have any freakin idea what Marxism is? 🤔
The leaders understand and are well versed in their version Of Marxism....the rank and file have no idea and are just easily controlled running on emotion.
 
You can't compare the online activity of a couple of a couple of hundred loosely affiliated people with no central organization and limited funds to Let's say BLM.... who has near a hundred Million in monetary backing and Millions of Foot soldiers who have been doing their biding for almost a year now. Gotta give them credit though they have low overhead only spent around 8 million in operating expenses.


I mean let's be real if this Organization had the thousands of ex-vets and LEO at their disposal that is claimed.... with them being well armed and trained would the storming of the capital of been so hap hazard, full of confusion, and without purpose. People not hiding their identity, videoing and posting what is going on and trying to loot gov. trinkets?
I'm not saying that some nut jobs where not communicating via online communication but what ever they are doing is laughable and 100% ineffective and destined to fail at every turn. Hand signals and a supposed pipe bomb that didn't even go off....you know all these former LEO military people incapable of building a simple pipe bomb and not capable of using basic breach and sweep tactics either to secure and control the capital to stop the electoral process.

Come on compare that to BLM/Antifa well funded, laying siege to federal property for weeks....burning Police Stations, Killing Civilians and LEO as well. They even strong armed whole municipalities into letting them control area's of a City Chaz/Chad and even changed the way police engage dangerous and criminal behavior because of the fear they instilled in the elected community leaders. Got millions of idiot foot soldiers believing the dogma and you can blackmail those in power.


And then compare that to this


Sure those people are breaking the law, misguided, pizzed off/mad has heck disenfranchised and look foolish as all get out.... but they are anything but well organized and there with a legit plan...to over throw the gov.


I mean If BLM/Antifa had stormed the Capital it would of been much more effective and I could easily see them taking control of the location for a extended time period. I give them credit they are way better funded have way more supporters and have a legit organization who's leaders have stated goals and actual plan that has toppled democracy's in the past. Venezuela, Cuba, etc.

I never gave much credit or credence to protesting and such....I always felt that it was ineffective, a cathartic release of emotion and frustration that made all involved look like buffoons....ie see the Capital rioters classic emotional protestors/rioters who accomplished nothing but felt like they had.....But in doing a little research it became clear that I was wrong that the Marxist/Leftist power heads have used Protesting and riots that are well coordinated to their advantage from the onset.


And Yes Most people who have a nice lifestyle and feel vested have zero reason to protest or riot.....that is unless you drink the flavor-aid that the System is systemically racist and oppressive based on propaganda and lies. The system that elects black presidents, black congressmen, has had black Attorney Generals, elects the Squad self proclaimed leftist......the system where the richest women in America is black. The system that has black LEO officers, the system that has laws making racism illegal and punishable.

But that doesn't matter as long as you believe that it's racist and evil and needs to be toppled.....same as those who believe that the election was stolen different sides of the same coin. But the Biggest difference is that one side has Millions of followers with Millions of Dollars and a legit Plan the other side is a bunch of knuckle heads screaming Trump Got cheated and then posting about it....so the gov. can then find them and convict them.....

I mean the only way to get the working and and middle class on board with division is to alienate and demonize the other political side as racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, homophobic and less than human. Of course in response the other side feels threatened, disenfranchised and ultimately distrustful. That culminates into irrational behavior. This works in the favor of those who want to fundamentally change the system.

As far as Gen-X's go I think as I stated our biggest failure is our kids...we raised them to be entitled and spoiled... My daughter told me one of her College Prof. said that Gen-Xs and Millennials/GenZ had a hard time coexisting in work because GenX didn't like all the BS questioning, complaining and entitlement. GenX's where just shut up and Grind it out....the opposite of the younger generation.

She agreed and I agreed that was correct(yes small sample size) and that was part of our conflict. Cause My Ex-Wife always made excuses and helicopter parented her going to the school to smooth or manipulate everything I was who cares small potatoes just work through it of course I lost every time ...most of the wives of my friends who are teachers also admit they have spoiled and entitled all their children as well and created problems.

This is a lot. A lot of emotionally-charged rhetoric, a little objectively incorrect information, and a few solid points.

I will point out that my response is a little shorter than what I am responding to, so it's got that going for it.

Loaded, emotionally-charged words as well as conflated words and concepts are highly effective as a basis for rhetoric on many people, maybe even the majority of people. That is why, despite nearly 50 years of legal precedent to the contrary, Republican politicians still campaign on Roe v. Wade and the judges those politicians will appoint to overturn it, yet, curiously, it still stands and likely will continue to stand, even with the current court make-up. But the problem with that method lies in its very nature: it exchanges verifiable fact and logical discourse with a tacit understanding that if you get into a person's feelings deep enough, they'll agree with your premises, faulty though they may be, because you believe they already agree with you deep down and just need to be shown the way. Appeals to emotion are largely wasted on well-informed people, however.

Also, I'm interested in where you got the information on the millions of "foot soldiers" etc. about BLM. Going down to a protest and hashtagging BLM on social media is hardly the hallmark of a well-oiled organization, let alone a "foot soldier." There is no central organization or hierarchy, just a bunch of independent local groups, actually pretty opposite but equal of groups on the right who are similarly capable of organizing. Also, on the funding, let's not pretend the Proud Boys, et al, are not well-funded: Proud Boys and other far-right groups raise millions via Christian funding site. I can't imagine that Jesus would be all that...proud.

The idea that racism is not systemic because of some elected and appointed officials is based on a faulty premise and fallacious logic. Is it better in many ways than it was a few decades ago? Absolutely. But you know as well as I do that "better" does not mean it has been eliminated and is no longer a problem. Also, if you're simply defining racism as things that people consciously say or do, I doubt that this evidence is going to change your mind: Minorities Who 'Whiten' Job Resumes Get More Interviews or Demographic differences in sentencing. If you're not defining it that way, then I'm not sure how can make some of your claims with intellectual honesty. Also, that's one black president, one vice president, and around 160 representatives and senators out of the over 12,000 elected...ever. I'm sure you have a good grasp on statistics. Those show anomalies, not the end of racism.

Also, the claim that the richest woman in America is black is just not true, nor is it even close. Oprah is the richest black woman and is 327th on the overall list and 49th on the richest women list. The richest black man, Robert F. Smith, is 125th on the overall list: Richest Americans. Of the over 600 billionaires in America, there are 7 who are black.

Here's what I'm interested in: which political rhetoric in a two-party system qualifies as divisive? It's divisive by definition, isn't it? I think I know the answer to this. Basically, if you have an emotional investment in an issue and another person also has an emotional investment in an issue that is the opposite of yours, then that is "divisive" to you. In other words, if you do not agree with my political beliefs, you are divisive. That is exactly what you are accusing "the left" of doing. And they are, of course, doing it. And so are you and everyone else. The moral application of the fable of the "Man and the Lion" is one we would do well to remember if we are interested in being intellectually honest: we are but sorry witnesses in our own cause.
 
You can't compare the online activity of a couple of a couple of hundred loosely affiliated people with no central organization and limited funds to Let's say BLM.... who has near a hundred Million in monetary backing and Millions of Foot soldiers who have been doing their biding for almost a year now. Gotta give them credit though they have low overhead only spent around 8 million in operating expenses.


I mean let's be real if this Organization had the thousands of ex-vets and LEO at their disposal that is claimed.... with them being well armed and trained would the storming of the capital of been so hap hazard, full of confusion, and without purpose. People not hiding their identity, videoing and posting what is going on and trying to loot gov. trinkets?
I'm not saying that some nut jobs where not communicating via online communication but what ever they are doing is laughable and 100% ineffective and destined to fail at every turn. Hand signals and a supposed pipe bomb that didn't even go off....you know all these former LEO military people incapable of building a simple pipe bomb and not capable of using basic breach and sweep tactics either to secure and control the capital to stop the electoral process.

Come on compare that to BLM/Antifa well funded, laying siege to federal property for weeks....burning Police Stations, Killing Civilians and LEO as well. They even strong armed whole municipalities into letting them control area's of a City Chaz/Chad and even changed the way police engage dangerous and criminal behavior because of the fear they instilled in the elected community leaders. Got millions of idiot foot soldiers believing the dogma and you can blackmail those in power.


And then compare that to this


Sure those people are breaking the law, misguided, pizzed off/mad has heck disenfranchised and look foolish as all get out.... but they are anything but well organized and there with a legit plan...to over throw the gov.


I mean If BLM/Antifa had stormed the Capital it would of been much more effective and I could easily see them taking control of the location for a extended time period. I give them credit they are way better funded have way more supporters and have a legit organization who's leaders have stated goals and actual plan that has toppled democracy's in the past. Venezuela, Cuba, etc.

I never gave much credit or credence to protesting and such....I always felt that it was ineffective, a cathartic release of emotion and frustration that made all involved look like buffoons....ie see the Capital rioters classic emotional protestors/rioters who accomplished nothing but felt like they had.....But in doing a little research it became clear that I was wrong that the Marxist/Leftist power heads have used Protesting and riots that are well coordinated to their advantage from the onset.


And Yes Most people who have a nice lifestyle and feel vested have zero reason to protest or riot.....that is unless you drink the flavor-aid that the System is systemically racist and oppressive based on propaganda and lies. The system that elects black presidents, black congressmen, has had black Attorney Generals, elects the Squad self proclaimed leftist......the system where the richest women in America is black. The system that has black LEO officers, the system that has laws making racism illegal and punishable.

But that doesn't matter as long as you believe that it's racist and evil and needs to be toppled.....same as those who believe that the election was stolen different sides of the same coin. But the Biggest difference is that one side has Millions of followers with Millions of Dollars and a legit Plan the other side is a bunch of knuckle heads screaming Trump Got cheated and then posting about it....so the gov. can then find them and convict them.....

I mean the only way to get the working and and middle class on board with division is to alienate and demonize the other political side as racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, homophobic and less than human. Of course in response the other side feels threatened, disenfranchised and ultimately distrustful. That culminates into irrational behavior. This works in the favor of those who want to fundamentally change the system.

As far as Gen-X's go I think as I stated our biggest failure is our kids...we raised them to be entitled and spoiled... My daughter told me one of her College Prof. said that Gen-Xs and Millennials/GenZ had a hard time coexisting in work because GenX didn't like all the BS questioning, complaining and entitlement. GenX's where just shut up and Grind it out....the opposite of the younger generation.

She agreed and I agreed that was correct(yes small sample size) and that was part of our conflict. Cause My Ex-Wife always made excuses and helicopter parented her going to the school to smooth or manipulate everything I was who cares small potatoes just work through it of course I lost every time ...most of the wives of my friends who are teachers also admit they have spoiled and entitled all their children as well and created problems.
Another book on Mosports I see.
 
Ok the Proud boys have well funded....all that doesn't even add up to a couple of Million.

Here is the National Organization for BLM own web site..


Again the report near a 100 million in funds. And yes every person duped into doing their bidding is a Foot Solider. I'm not saying the are willing to die on that Hill of BLM, but the are very willing to carry out the BLM leaders request and dictates.

And don't confuse Antifa with BLM.....yes Antifa is very compartmentalized and groups are loosely affiliated. But BLM is a different Animal. They are well funded and organized as their web site clearly points out.

I whole heartedly disagree that Racism is systemic in the system. Because if that was the case then POC could not achieve those positions of power. How in the Heck do you have a Black Supreme court justice if the System is set up to make sure nobody but white people achieve positions of power. If the system was racist and exclusion and that was the goal of the system then none of the things I mentioned would be possible.

What you are talking about is people have bigoted view points as individuals not a system set up for failure of POC. Bias can never be eradicated from the hearts of men and women. Clearly you cannot legislate the hearts and minds of people and the choices they make.
And as far as the statement about POC in powerful positions that I made that is almost a exact quote from my GF and one of My BF both are Black Women. Both think the idea of the system being racist is laughable, do they think Individual Racism exist HECK yes and both will tell you along with Another friend of Mine Layton from Jamaica that the most Racist people are Asians, then Blacks, Hispanics and they think of all the races white people are the least. That was a huge surprise to me but take it for what it is that is their experience.

Also your statistical comparison is not valid....clearly nobody is debating the system was not systemically racist....Clearly it was when POC couldn't vote and only counted as a partial human. But my OP is that the system is not now systemically racist.

And I was in error Oprah is one of the richest self made women in America....I mean clearly if the system was racist then Women of Color wouldn't be able to achieve that level ever.

I'm not saying the system is 100% perfect but in this day and age it might of reached it zenith of fairness do to the nature of individual humans and their hardwired biases.

And yes everything has a emotional bent to it. That is pretty obvious but what I pointed out was not emotionally charged. That is the clear stated goals of BLM and The Radical Left. I have no issue with Blue Dog Dem's at all. In fact a lot of my Friends are old school Blue Dogs...and a lot of them are gravitating away from the Democratic party do the Radicalization that is setting in.

Again my issue with the Radical left is their blatant want to radically change the system and labeling everyone on the other side as racist, homophobic and what ever ism they can hurl.
 
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This is a lot. A lot of emotionally-charged rhetoric, a little objectively incorrect information, and a few solid points.



Here's what I'm interested in: which political rhetoric in a two-party system qualifies as divisive? It's divisive by definition, isn't it? I think I know the answer to this. Basically, if you have an emotional investment in an issue and another person also has an emotional investment in an issue that is the opposite of yours, then that is "divisive" to you. In other words, if you do not agree with my political beliefs, you are divisive. That is exactly what you are accusing "the left" of doing. And they are, of course, doing it. And so are you and everyone else. The moral application of the fable of the "Man and the Lion" is one we would do well to remember if we are interested in being intellectually honest: we are but sorry witnesses in our own cause.

@r14veer @MGHS going to say what you guys have written seems to be well thought out and informative...

But Veer one of the thing things you mention that really gets me is the two party system and how it has evolved especially in the last say 10-15 years and the partisan divide has really grown into more or less two camps, I would almost say we no longer have two political parties but two political gangs, who demand undying support...no matter what the leaders do or say or you are you will be considered no longer loyal and that goes for both parties.

Since both of you like to write very long responses I think you both will find this an interesting read.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/two-party-system-broke-constitution/604213/

Just an excerpt.

John Adams worried that “a division of the republic into two great parties … is to be dreaded as the great political evil.” And that’s exactly what has come to pass.

Over the past three decades, both parties have had roughly equal electoral strength nationally, making control of Washington constantly up for grabs. Since 1992, the country has cycled through two swings of the pendulum, from united Democratic government to divided government to united Republican government and back again, with both sides seeking that elusive permanent majority, and attempting to sharpen the distinctions between the parties in order to win it. This also intensified partisanship.

These triple developments—the nationalization of politics, the geographical-cultural partisan split, and consistently close elections—have reinforced one another, pushing both parties into top-down leadership, enforcing party discipline, and destroying cross-partisan deal making. Voters now vote the party, not the candidate. Candidates depend on the party brand. Everything is team loyalty. The stakes are too high for it to be otherwise.

The consequence is that today, America has a genuine two-party system with no overlap, the development the Framers feared most. And it shows no signs of resolving. The two parties are fully sorted by geography and cultural values, and absent a major realignment, neither side has a chance of becoming the dominant party in the near future. But the elusive permanent majority promises so much power, neither side is willing to give up on it.

But the elusive permanent majority promises so much power, neither side is willing to give up on it.

When I read this sentence this is when I realize why the Pubs are so unwilling to dump Trump to save themselves....it is the promise of the power at they believe he can bring to them.....
 
The system was set up as two parties simply because it's a winner take all type of election. I fully respect the Founding Fathers and their wisdom in most aspects but having a Winner takes all system doesn't allow for a third party to exist.

I learned this back in High School from a Great teacher, he explained that in reality saying you are voting for the person is laughable...that the Party they belonged to controlled the Money and their prospects of being re-elected and basically how they vote in most cases, break the party line to much and you become a Joe Liberman or Ben Campbell etc.. So you have to pick a Party that best meets your idea's and vote with them.

And yes you are partially right on why us Conservatives have backed Trump..... but a lot of his backing by the populace is a response of the Power of the Dems, the Cancel Culture and silencing of the Voices of Rep/Conservatives, the Attack on the 2nd amendment and other Conservative ideals.

Now the Points I'm going to make are not regarding the Rank and File Blue Dog Dems but for the Power Elites in the Democratic party and the Radical Left they are in league with.

At this point with the current state of the divide .....There are 3 options....1)Reconciliation between the two sides which seems like a Pipe Dream at this point.2) Subjugation which seems to be the goal of many of the Radical Dems....take away the right to own guns, don't allow the Free expression of conservative view points and social media and other venues. Attack any idea that runs counter to theirs and have a consequence culture as opposed to a free culture of thought using mobs and such to intimidate with fear.3) Civil War and we have discussed that on here before. I'd say we are in a Cold Civil War as we speak.
 
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The system was set up as two parties simply because it's a winner take all type of election. I fully respect the Founding Fathers and their wisdom in most aspects but having a Winner takes all system doesn't allow for a third party to exist.

I learned this back in High School from a Great teacher, he explained that in reality saying you are voting for the person is laughable...that the Party they belonged to controlled the Money and their prospects of being re-elected and basically how they vote in most cases, break the party line to much and you become a Joe Liberman or Ben Campbell etc.. So you have to pick a Party that best meets your idea's and vote with them.

And yes you are partially right on why us Conservatives have backed Trump..... but a lot of his backing by the populace is a response of the Power of the Dems, the Cancel Culture and silencing of the Voices of Rep/Conservatives, the Attack on the 2nd amendment and other Conservative ideals.

Now the Points I'm going to make are not regarding the Rank and File Blue Dog Dems but for the Power Elites in the Democratic party and the Radical Left they are in league with.

At this point with the current state of the divide .....There are 3 options....1)Reconciliation between the two sides which seems like a Pipe Dream at this point.2) Subjugation which seems to be the goal of many of the Radical Dems....take away the right to own guns, don't allow the Free expression of conservative view points and social media and other venues. Attack any idea that runs counter to theirs and have a consequence culture as opposed to a free culture of thought using mobs and such to intimidate with fear.3) Civil War and we have discussed that on here before. I'd say we are in a Cold Civil War as we speak.

What's dumb about the whole thing is that our system never was supposed to be a winner-take-all election, nor is it written that way in the original Constitution, so we can't really put any blame on the founders with what it's become.

In fact, the electoral college voters were supposed to be free to vote for whomever they deemed fit, which has its own problems, of course (not least of which is that there is no popular vote even mentioned as originally intended). The courts have found that the states are within their rights to require their electors to pledge to vote a certain way (though not all states have so-called faithless elector laws), since the Constitution says: "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors...etc." But it was really the 12th Amendment that solidified a 2-party system: 12 Amendment, Annotated.

The way the system was originally set up was to prevent a 2 party system because the founders knew what would happen if it came to that (and it has). In reality, the goal was actually that the electoral system would rarely work, since it would be difficult to gain a majority of electoral votes if 3 or more people ran every year. It would then get sent to the House, and that the House would more often than not elect the president (parliamentary democracy was a way proposed and supported by a lot of the delegates at the Constitutional Convention).
 
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Well I do blame them to a degree as the system was sort of ripe for what has happened. It was just 28 years after 1776 the 12th Amendment was passed. The issue should of been addressed from the get go. I mean having a President and Vice President from different sides is never a great thing.

Although I'm not sure I wouldn't prefer the two party system over the parliamentary democracy approach.
 
Well I do blame them to a degree as the system was sort of ripe for what has happened. It was just 28 years after 1776 the 12th Amendment was passed. The issue should of been addressed from the get go. I mean having a President and Vice President from different sides is never a great thing.

Although I'm not sure I wouldn't prefer the two party system over the parliamentary democracy approach.

Their failure was really a lack of foresight and insight into human nature. They thought "great men" would deliberate and pick another "great man" as the president. On the parliamentary democracy, one thing it has going for it is that when there isn't a majority, which is often, they have to work with another party (sometimes even a party that is ideologically the opposite) to form a governing coalition. Heck, the Liberal Democrats and the Tories formed a governing coalition and it often does a good job of moderating the fringe wackos. I'm not a huge fan of a prime minister who is not elected by the full electorate, but sometimes we elect people like Chester A. Arthur, Warren G. Harding, and Herbert Hoover, and others, so sometimes I think maybe a prime minister wouldn't be so bad.
 
I get what your saying....I mean in the past (90's)I've looked into the idea like other gov. where you could have Seats in the house and senate occupied based on the percentage of votes each party got. Not sure that is the answer. I'm really not that concerned about the Winner take all President. They come and they Go. The life long tenure in the 2 Houses though and the gov. Bureaucracy are much more of a issue than the President who get's 8 years max.

Biden is a Dolt and a Lousy President but really the scary people are behind the scenes and in the House and Senate.
 
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What's dumb about the whole thing is that our system never was supposed to be a winner-take-all election, nor is it written that way in the original Constitution, so we can't really put any blame on the founders with what it's become.

In fact, the electoral college voters were supposed to be free to vote for whomever they deemed fit, which has its own problems, of course (not least of which is that there is no popular vote even mentioned as originally intended). The courts have found that the states are within their rights to require their electors to pledge to vote a certain way (though not all states have so-called faithless elector laws), since the Constitution says: "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors...etc." But it was really the 12th Amendment that solidified a 2-party system: 12 Amendment, Annotated.

The way the system was originally set up was to prevent a 2 party system because the founders knew what would happen if it came to that (and it has). In reality, the goal was actually that the electoral system would rarely work, since it would be difficult to gain a majority of electoral votes if 3 or more people ran every year. It would then get sent to the House, and that the House would more often than not elect the president (parliamentary democracy was a way proposed and supported by a lot of the delegates at the Constitutional Convention).


Actually the founding fathers never thought the electoral college would decide the the presidential election either. They thought that 3 or for people would run for President and that most of the time that nobody would get enough electors to win...Thus our president would then be decided by the house who was voted on by the people. But it wasn't long that people figured parties work... And here we are.
 
Actually the founding fathers never thought the electoral college would decide the the presidential election either. They thought that 3 or for people would run for President and that most of the time that nobody would get enough electors to win...Thus our president would then be decided by the house who was voted on by the people. But it wasn't long that people figured parties work... And here we are.

You might have missed the last sentence or two, and I'm horribly, terribly, no-goodly offended: "In reality, the goal was actually that the electoral system would rarely work, since it would be difficult to gain a majority of electoral votes if 3 or more people ran every year. It would then get sent to the House, and that the House would more often than not elect the president (parliamentary democracy was a way proposed and supported by a lot of the delegates at the Constitutional Convention)."
 
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I get what your saying....I mean in the past (90's)I've looked into the idea like other gov. where you could have Seats in the house and senate occupied based on the percentage of votes each party got. Not sure that is the answer. I'm really not that concerned about the Winner take all President. They come and they Go. The life long tenure in the 2 Houses though and the gov. Bureaucracy are much more of a issue than the President who get's 8 years max.

Biden is a Dolt and a Lousy President but really the scary people are behind the scenes and in the House and Senate.

I'm fully on board with congressional term limits. New blood, new ideas, less entrenched. Bureaucracy definitely should be more efficient, but it can't be completely done away with, practically and logistically speaking.
 
I'm fully on board with congressional term limits. New blood, new ideas, less entrenched. Bureaucracy definitely should be more efficient, but it can't be completely done away with, practically and logistically speaking.

I think congressional limits should be a full spectrum.... you should be limited to how much time you can spend in elected capacity completely. Be it 20 to 25 years. Again elected positions were never meant to be held for decades.

Biden is a prime example no way should he ever been allowed to run for president after spending 40 some years in the Senate, after awhile you lose touch with how we the people actually have to live under the legislation they pass.
 
I'm fully on board with congressional term limits. New blood, new ideas, less entrenched. Bureaucracy definitely should be more efficient, but it can't be completely done away with, practically and logistically speaking.
I'm not wanting to do away with it at all you have to have some form of bureaucracy in place, but some how and some way the power behind the Elected officials need to be neutered and controlled. Two many gov. agency's who act like their Own little fiefdoms with to much power and minimal oversite.

The bureaucracy needs to be addressed in that a lot of the people entrenched in the gov. have more control on how policies are written, how they are enforced and if they even make it to a vote. I've heard politicians talk about how good bills and such are sandbagged by those in control of the bureaucracy because it might effect them and theirs even though it would be a benefit to the citizens and society at large. They wield vast amounts of power and have the ears of those who are elected. But with that said I have little hope it will change...in fact it will get worse IMO.


 
I'm not wanting to do away with it at all you have to have some form of bureaucracy in place, but some how and some way the power behind the Elected officials need to be neutered and controlled. Two many gov. agency's who act like their Own little fiefdoms with to much power and minimal oversite.

The bureaucracy needs to be addressed in that a lot of the people entrenched in the gov. have more control on how policies are written, how they are enforced and if they even make it to a vote. I've heard politicians talk about how good bills and such are sandbagged by those in control of the bureaucracy because it might effect them and theirs even though it would be a benefit to the citizens and society at large. They wield vast amounts of power and have the ears of those who are elected. But with that said I have little hope it will change...in fact it will get worse IMO.



True statements. We might also consider that, equally, maybe even more disgustingly, corporations, industry groups, and think tanks are writing legislation.
 
I'm not wanting to do away with it at all you have to have some form of bureaucracy in place, but some how and some way the power behind the Elected officials need to be neutered and controlled. Two many gov. agency's who act like their Own little fiefdoms with to much power and minimal oversite.

The bureaucracy needs to be addressed in that a lot of the people entrenched in the gov. have more control on how policies are written, how they are enforced and if they even make it to a vote. I've heard politicians talk about how good bills and such are sandbagged by those in control of the bureaucracy because it might effect them and theirs even though it would be a benefit to the citizens and society at large. They wield vast amounts of power and have the ears of those who are elected. But with that said I have little hope it will change...in fact it will get worse IMO.


Both the Speaker of the House and the Senate Majority Leader have WAAAY too much power in this country. There is NO way one person in each chamber should get to decide they won't even put a bill up for a vote in their chamber if they don't like it just because a majority of their caucus don't like it. It should get an up or down vote and if some crossover to make it pass then it should pass.
 
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