Lineup...Again

[Eagles_Ball]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it...I know. But Wong needs to move up and Dejong down. Thoughts?

Marp--1B
Wong--2B
Pham--LF
Fowler--CF
Molina--C
Martinez--RF
Gyorko--3B
Dejong--SS

 

[Neutron Monster]

And Duck says Mo never bought him a cleanup hitter

 

[3Rfan]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it...I know. But Wong needs to move up and Dejong down. Thoughts?

Marp--1B
Wong--2B
Pham--LF
Fowler--CF
Molina--C
Martinez--RF
Gyorko--3B
Dejong--SS

Why would you want a power/SO guy hitting 8th? And no I don't like Grichuk hitting ahead of the pitcher either.

 

[Neutron Monster]

Why would you want a power/SO guy hitting 8th? And no I don't like Grichuk hitting ahead of the pitcher either.

Because the OBP in the nine hole is horriboe

 

[3Rfan]

Because the OBP in the nine hole is horriboe

I don't want a big SO guy hitting ahead of the pitcher. If nothing else happens in an inning you need to get the pitcher out of the way so a SO is not good thing in the 8 hole. How many good teams have a HR/SO guy hitting 8th?

 

[Neutron Monster]

I don't want a big SO guy hitting ahead of the pitcher. If nothing else happens in an inning you need to get the pitcher out of the way so a SO is not good thing in the 8 hole. How many good teams have a HR/SO guy hitting 8th?

Most teams have their worst regular hitter ahead of the pitcher.

It just so happens in baseball that a lot of the worst hitters now hit for more HR relative to 10 years ago.

 

[3Rfan]

Most teams have their worst regular hitter ahead of the pitcher.

It just so happens in baseball that a lot of the worst hitters now hit for more HR relative to 10 years ago.

DeJong is far from being their worst hitter.

 

[Neutron Monster]

DeJong is far from being their worst hitter.

I agree that so far, yeah. Although he's a slump away from being Grichuk, Part II.

 

[3Rfan]

I agree that so far, yeah. Although he's a slump away from being Grichuk, Part II.

Anybody is, look at Gyroko and Fowler.

 

[wccards21]

I don't want a big SO guy hitting ahead of the pitcher. If nothing else happens in an inning you need to get the pitcher out of the way so a SO is not good thing in the 8 hole. How many good teams have a HR/SO guy hitting 8th?

Where do you think Baez bats?

 

[3Rfan]

Where do you think Baez bats?

Do the Cardinals have a lineup like they do?

 

[wccards21]

Do the Cardinals have a lineup like they do?

Your question was about what good teams have a power hitter in the 8 hole

I gave you a team

 

[3Rfan]

Your question was about what good teams have a power hitter in the 8 hole

I gave you a team

Yeah how many others have that? I said a HR/SO guy, does Baez SO 150 times in a season? You notice when Garcia is in the game HE bats ahead of the pitcher. Low SO guy that has very little power.

 

[wccards21]

Yeah how many others have that? I said a HR/SO guy, does Baez SO 150 times in a season? You notice when Garcia is in the game HE bats ahead of the pitcher. Low SO guy that has very little power.

Does Baez strike out a lot? You really don't get out much past STL baseball, do you?

He's at a 28% K rate....and that's good. He also hits. 270. Mariners have Zunino (17 HRS/119 SO), Baltimore has Davis and Smith 7/8, Colorado has Story, Dodgers have Puig

 

[Neutron Monster]

Anybody is, look at Gyroko and Fowler.

Fowler takes a ton of walks. He can be a decent hitter if he hits .250. Grichuk and dejong at .250 are not league average players

 

[Neutron Monster]

Yeah how many others have that? I said a HR/SO guy, does Baez SO 150 times in a season? You notice when Garcia is in the game HE bats ahead of the pitcher. Low SO guy that has very little power.

Garcia strikes out 20 percent of the time. That's about average. He's basically exactly at the league average for 2017

 

[Neutron Monster]

Does Baez strike out a lot? You really don't get out much past STL baseball, do you?

He's at a 28% K rate....and that's good. He also hits. 270. Mariners have Zunino (17 HRS/119 SO), Baltimore has Davis and Smith 7/8, Colorado has Story, Dodgers have Puig

Lots of eight hitters are bad. Lots of bad hitters have high K rates. Not earthshattering stuff

K rates are also rising pretty fast.

 

[wccards21]

Lots of eight hitters are bad. Lots of bad hitters have high K rates. Not earthshattering stuff

K rates are also rising pretty fast.

Specialized pen arms and more starters throwing 100mph....

22-25% will be average soon

 

[Neutron Monster]

Specialized pen arms and more starters throwing 100mph....

22-25% will be average soon

and an increase in recognized value of HR and walks. Teams aren't selecting hitters as much on their ability to make contact

 

[3Rfan]

Fowler takes a ton of walks. He can be a decent hitter if he hits .250. Grichuk and dejong at .250 are not league average players

DeJong is NOT a .250 hitter! He may be someday but he hasn't been this season. His slg and ops is higher than anyone on this team. You guys love those stats until I use them. Neither you nor I know what he will do in the future but he is doing quite well THIS season.

 

[Neutron Monster]

DeJong is NOT a .250 hitter! He may be someday but he hasn't been this season. His slg and ops is higher than anyone on this team. You guys love those stats until I use them. Neither you nor I know what he will do in the future but he is doing quite well THIS season.

He hit .260 in AA last year. Odds are very, very good that he's not anywhere close to a .300 hitter at a major league level right now. He's running hot. That's great. I hope it continues. But if I had to bet my money on what is more likely for the next 2 months, it's more likely he hits .250 than .300.

It's really, really hard to hit .300 when you strike out 30% of the time. See Grichuk, Randal.

I agree he has some real pop but the batting average is pretty darn suspect.

 

[Neutron Monster]

Is it really that difficult to believe that Pham and DeJong are running hot relative to their true talent level whereas some other guys are running below their expectations? E.g. Piscotty is a lot better player overall than he's been year to date, whereas Paul DeJong isn't terribly likely to hit .300 over the next 3 months.

Some guys are really good and we can expect them to be good (i.e. Martinez). Some guys make a real leap (Rosie seems to have made a leap.) Other guys just get hot for a bit.

 

[3Rfan]

He hit .260 in AA last year. Odds are very, very good that he's not anywhere close to a .300 hitter at a major league level right now. He's running hot. That's great. I hope it continues. But if I had to bet my money on what is more likely for the next 2 months, it's more likely he hits .250 than .300.

It's really, really hard to hit .300 when you strike out 30% of the time. See Grichuk, Randal.

I agree he has some real pop but the batting average is pretty darn suspect.

So the slugging and OPS numbers mean nothing when you don't want it to but it does when it's Fowler or someone else. I have NEVER said he would be a star SS or hitter. I have said he is a star hitter right now. He may very well fall on his face like Diaz did but right now he is as good as we have and I've not said any different.

 

[Neutron Monster]

So the slugging and OPS numbers mean nothing when you don't want it to but it does when it's Fowler or someone else. I have NEVER said he would be a star SS or hitter. I have said he is a star hitter right now. He may very well fall on his face like Diaz did but right now he is as good as we have and I've not said any different.

The core of what I'm saying is that you can only put so much weight on 60-70 games of MLB experience. Dejong has been very very good so far. And the power looks real. But the batting average seems like a blip given his minor league experience and K rate. And the OPS and SLG will also come down if his BA drops.

Paul DeJong could be awesome, but he could also be a backup in a month. That's all I'm saying.