Legal Formations

[touchdownsilly]

	80	66	55	65	75	85			18
								15		22
	25		5

Is this a legal offensive formation in high school? I saw a team run this formation after a timeout and immediately sub number 76 in for 80. They would run 5 verts and then send 25 out on a wheel route giving them 6 receivers. Watching this team run it multiple times I am wondering if they found a loop hole in the rule book. I also could not understand how 85 was not made ineligible being covered up by 18. Formation is real the jersey numbers are fictitious. Any insight would be appreciated.

 

[J. Kane]

 

[touchdownsilly]

True

 

[og71]

85 is ineligible in that formation but the officials have to recognize that

 

[touchdownsilly]

	80	66	55	65	75	85			18
								15		22
	25		5

Is this a legal offensive formation in high school? I saw a team run this formation after a timeout and immediately sub number 76 in for 80. They would run 5 verts and then send 25 out on a wheel route giving them 6 receivers. Watching this team run it multiple times I am wondering if they found a loop hole in the rule book. I also could not understand how 85 was not made ineligible being covered up by 18. Formation is real the jersey numbers are fictitious. Any insight would be appreciated.

Sorry had to fix the formation using a table, my bad.

 

[runbillyrun]

85 is ineligible in that formation but the officials have to recognize that

AND teach your defenders to point it out to the officials so that they DO recognize it.

 

[Depth of Knowledge]

In 11 man I thought you needed 5 linemen numbered between 50-79 on the line of scrimmage?

 

[J. Kane]

In 11 man I thought you needed 5 linemen numbered between 50-79 on the line of scrimmage?

 

[Depth of Knowledge]

I would think the team running the formation subbing quickly probably realized it was illegal and just played the odds on it not being called. Was this a High School Varsity game? I could see it being missed in a JV or JH level. At the collegiate level with replay I could not imagine anybody even trying it. Interesting very Belichickish!

 

[BoosterBosko]

This sounds like something Coach Fox did on Monday Night Football one time. He ran in a back up QB, who was terrible but everyone thought was extremely good looking. While everyone was distracted by this guys looks, Coach Fox ran a play that went for a touchdown. Coaching genius that guy!

 

[J. Kane]

 

[kaching]

hmm, if you didn't catch it until you watched the game film, could a team file a protest?

 

[Depth of Knowledge]

Did the team running the illegal formation win or lose the game in question?

 

[Treadmill]

	80	66	55	65	75	85			18
								15		22
	25		5

Is this a legal offensive formation in high school? I saw a team run this formation after a timeout and immediately sub number 76 in for 80. They would run 5 verts and then send 25 out on a wheel route giving them 6 receivers. Watching this team run it multiple times I am wondering if they found a loop hole in the rule book. I also could not understand how 85 was not made ineligible being covered up by 18. Formation is real the jersey numbers are fictitious. Any insight would be appreciated.

85 is ineligible because he's covered up, and, there is only 4 players between 50 & 79 on the line, so that makes it illegal. If 85 was switched for a number between 50 & 79, the whole formation would be fine.

 

[Bill_Shakespeare]

Have to have 5 #’s between 50-79 on LOS, unless it’s a “kicking formation” on 4th down. Then you can sub in as many eligible #’s as you want, but you still can’t send a covered player down field for a pass.

 

[kaching]

we've always had our players call out when there is a covered receiver IF they see it. but we also defend that receiver because too many times they go out for a pass and it's not called. But when you have six eligibles going out for a pass that becomes problematic.

if it is a sub varsity game it might come down to whether it was played here or there. there are still "homer" calls.

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

80 66 55 65 75 85 18
15 22

25 5
Is this a legal offensive formation in high school? I saw a team run this formation after a timeout and immediately sub number 76 in for 80. They would run 5 verts and then send 25 out on a wheel route giving them 6 receivers. Watching this team run it multiple times I am wondering if they found a loop hole in the rule book. I also could not understand how 85 was not made ineligible being covered up by 18. Formation is real the jersey numbers are fictitious. Any insight would be appreciated.

Assuming

This sounds like something Coach Fox did on Monday Night Football one time. He ran in a back up QB, who was terrible but everyone thought was extremely good looking. While everyone was distracted by this guys looks, Coach Fox ran a play that went for a touchdown. Coaching genius that guy!

All that is missing is the Hot Mom on the sideline yelling to distract the opposing coach BoosterBosko

 

[BoosterBosko]

Assuming

All that is missing is the Hot Mom on the sideline yelling to distract the opposing coach BoosterBosko

Thats right out of the Kearney playbook!

 

[J. Kane]

Thats right out of the Kearney playbook!

 

[BoosterBosko]

WHOA HO!!! The first Bosko likey of 2021!

 

[r14veer]

Have to have 5 #’s between 50-79 on LOS, unless it’s a “kicking formation” on 4th down. Then you can sub in as many eligible #’s as you want, but you still can’t send a covered player down field for a pass.

There is a way to get only 4 ineligible numbers on the field during 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down rather than the normally required 5. If the team sets or shifts into a scrimmage kick formation, the snapper may be an eligible number (but ineligible by alignment). He must be between the ends, and therefore, is ineligible. In this circumstance the rule books says there must then be 4 ineligible numbers on the LOS in addition to the eligibly-numbered snapper.

 

[kaching]

not true - show me where that is in the rule book. that's why the a-11 offense is not legal anymore.

 

[Bill_Shakespeare]

I'm not 100% certain on how they determine this but what r14veer is saying may be true, the only way you're able to get into a scrimmage kick formation on 1/2/3down and do that shift is if it's a legitimate kicking situation(think FG at the end of half). But if you're going to shift into an offensive set, there's pretty much no reason not to have your typical center in since he's still ineligible for a pass.

 

[freezeoption]

So I can't punt on 1st down anymore and let my defense win the game for me. I believe everyone is eligible to get a pass if it is thrown behind the line of scrimmage and backwards.

 

[kaching]

So I can't punt on 1st down anymore and let my defense win the game for me. I believe everyone is eligible to get a pass if it is thrown behind the line of scrimmage and backwards.

that's true about a backwards pass

 

[Mofan79]

So I can't punt on 1st down anymore and let my defense win the game for me. I believe everyone is eligible to get a pass if it is thrown behind the line of scrimmage and backwards.

It doesn't even have to be behind the line of scrimmage

 

[r14veer]

not true - show me where that is in the rule book. that's why the a-11 offense is not legal anymore.

Please. It is rule 7-2-5b (Exception). Here it is:

"b. At the snap, at least five A players on their line of scrimmage must be numbered 50-79.
EXCEPTIONS:
1. On first, second or third down, when A sets or shifts into a scrimmage-kick formation as in 2-14-2a, the snapper may be a player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99. If Team A has the snapper in the game under this exception, Team A shall have four players wearing numbers 50-79 on its line of scrimmage. The snapper in the game under this exception must be between the ends and is an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b).
2. On fourth down or during a kick try, when A sets or shifts into a scrimmage-kick formation, any A player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99 may take the position of any A player numbered 50 to 79. A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b)."

 

[r14veer]

I'm not 100% certain on how they determine this but what r14veer is saying may be true, the only way you're able to get into a scrimmage kick formation on 1/2/3down and do that shift is if it's a legitimate kicking situation(think FG at the end of half). But if you're going to shift into an offensive set, there's pretty much no reason not to have your typical center in since he's still ineligible for a pass.

There is no requirement that it be a "kicking situation" in the rule book. Further, there is no requirement that you actually kick the ball. A scrimmage kick formation is as follows:

"ART. 2 ... A scrimmage kick formation is one in which no player is in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs, and at the snap, either:

a. A player is in position with a knee on the ground 7 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage, in position to be the holder and receive the long snap and with another player 3 yards or less behind that player in position to attempt a place kick, OR

b. A player is 10 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage and in position to receive the long snap."

You wouldn't be able to trot your punt team out on 1st - 3rd down according to rule 7-2-5b (Exception), unless you have the required at least 4 ineligible numbers. Your PAT/FG team almost certainly will have the required numbers, but if it didn't, you'd have to sub in the required amount of ineligibles (at least 4 in a scrimmage kick on 1st-3rd downs).

It was put in place to get rid of the possibility of the A-11, but it restricts something it wasn't meant to restrict, which sucks. Also, just from experience, I doubt too many officials call you on it, because many (not most, but many) are barely (if at all) aware of the exception, or it just doesn't occur to them in the moment...particularly among those who primarily officiate small class football, but not always limited to them.

 

[r14veer]

So I can't punt on 1st down anymore and let my defense win the game for me. I believe everyone is eligible to get a pass if it is thrown behind the line of scrimmage and backwards.

There is nothing in the rules that says you can't punt on whatever down you like. You do have to satisfy the numbering requirements (or the exception), however. You are correct that everyone is eligible on any lateral or backwards pass, but that goes for anywhere on the field, not just behind the LOS.

 

[tigerfan_55]

Must have 5 on the line between 50-79, unless in a scrimmage kick formation when the snapper can replace any player but still remains ineligible by position. Only a player on the end of the line of scrimmage or behind the line of scrimmage are eligible receivers. With that being said, you can only have ineligibles down the field, or pass interference for that matter, if the legal forward pass crosses the line of scrimmage. If the pass crosses the line, and an ineligible receiver catches the ball you would have 2 live ball fouls. Illegal touching and ineligibles down field.
I doesn't get caught in a lot of JV/Jr High games because of schools not having enough jerseys with the right numbers or kids playing out of position with their normal jersey. Plus, a lot of JV/Jr HIgh games are played and newer, less experienced officials work those games to get experience training to make a Friday night crew and it is tough to catch if you cant rely on jersey numbers. The shortage of officials is real and these newer guys have got to train somewhere.

 

[Pancho and Lefty]

I remember in the pre spread offense days, a time or two you would see a team break the huddle with 10 players, then sneak a guy from their sideline out there after the defense was lined up. if the line or side judge wasn't paying attention, team might steal a big one.

 

[Bill_Shakespeare]

There is no requirement that it be a "kicking situation" in the rule book. Further, there is no requirement that you actually kick the ball. A scrimmage kick formation is as follows:

"ART. 2 ... A scrimmage kick formation is one in which no player is in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs, and at the snap, either:

a. A player is in position with a knee on the ground 7 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage, in position to be the holder and receive the long snap and with another player 3 yards or less behind that player in position to attempt a place kick, OR

b. A player is 10 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage and in position to receive the long snap."

You wouldn't be able to trot your punt team out on 1st - 3rd down according to rule 7-2-5b (Exception), unless you have the required at least 4 ineligible numbers. Your PAT/FG team almost certainly will have the required numbers, but if it didn't, you'd have to sub in the required amount of ineligibles (at least 4 in a scrimmage kick on 1st-3rd downs).

It was put in place to get rid of the possibility of the A-11, but it restricts something it wasn't meant to restrict, which sucks. Also, just from experience, I doubt too many officials call you on it, because many (not most, but many) are barely (if at all) aware of the exception, or it just doesn't occur to them in the moment...particularly among those who primarily officiate small class football, but not always limited to them.

What is it restricting that it wasn’t meant to restrict?

 

[kaching]

I stand corrected about the long snapper on a non-4th down play. guess it just doesn't come up very much. I saw a lot of punters not at ten yard depth that would theoretically negate this unusual scenario.

oh well, to the initial post - that formation was illegal and the coach that did it should be drawn and quartered.

 

[r14veer]

What is it restricting that it wasn’t meant to restrict?

If your punt team has, let's say, 8 eligibly-numbered players on it, you can't use that full punt team (that you always practice with) on 1st-3rd downs if you felt the situation dictated that you punt; you'd have to sub until you had at least 4 ineligibly-numbered players (which may not be great in punt coverage), or you could always do a quick kick out of a more normal formation, obviously, but not all teams have that luxury. It's a rare situation, for sure.

 

[J. Kane]

 

[Jomjam]

I stand corrected about the long snapper on a non-4th down play. guess it just doesn't come up very much. I saw a lot of punters not at ten yard depth that would theoretically negate this unusual scenario.

oh well, to the initial post - that formation was illegal and the coach that did it should be drawn and quartered.

Coach is getting off to easy, should be murdered in the face immediately

 

[freezeoption]

I don't know about quarter, I'd say at least 50 cents.

 

[J. Kane]

I don't know about quarter, I'd say at least 50 cents.

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

I'm more of a Slim Shady guy

 

[Mofan79]

I don't know about quarter, I'd say at least 50 cents.

Cant do any less than Tree fiddy