Really good, thanks for posting.
This is the sort of thing I'm thinking about when I said the other day that we need to have a coherent strategy beyond "bomb ISIS." We need to understand the situation on the ground in Iraq and Syria (and, potentially, Libya at this point). We need to have an actual strategy for how to defeat our enemy and also for how to try to prevent its successors from doing this again.
This is the sort of thing I'm thinking about when I said the other day that we need to have a coherent strategy beyond "bomb ISIS." We need to understand the situation on the ground in Iraq and Syria (and, potentially, Libya at this point). We need to have an actual strategy for how to defeat our enemy and also for how to try to prevent its successors from doing this again.
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Stevedangos
Guest
Obamas "Arab Spring" was a real bad thing. The leaders of Lybia, Egypt, Syria ect may have been evil dictators but they pretty much kept the peace in their own countries.
The idea of fueling revolutions with no plan for a stable govt to step in shows Obama (and Bush) has no understanding at all about that part of the world.
Lots more people going to die before that mess is ever straightened out.
The idea of fueling revolutions with no plan for a stable govt to step in shows Obama (and Bush) has no understanding at all about that part of the world.
Lots more people going to die before that mess is ever straightened out.
Believe it or not, things happen that are not under the control of the President of the United States. Most notably, Arab Spring began in a place you didn't even mention where the US didn't intervene at all - Tunisia.
The US was not a major player in Arab Spring. It was a major player in a couple of countries (notably, our support for the Yemeni government of Saleh and its successor and our eventual intervention in Libya against Gaddafi at the best of our European allies). But, we were not a major initiator of the tide of change that swept over a number of Arab countries.
At its core, Arab Spring was a domestic issue in its local countries, not a Western-led movement. It's not the first regional wave like this, nor will it be the last. It's what happens in unstable parts of the world with sizable populations of underemployed young men.
And, the main place where ISIS comes from has nothing to do with Arab Spring - ISIS is al Qaeda in Iraq under new leadership. Baghdadi is a Sunni Iraqi. Most of his core leaders are former Baathists or former al Qaeda in Iraq loyalists.
This doesn't excuse the fact that Obama underestimated ISIS, and also that he doesn't seem to have a clear strategy for how to confront it at the moment.
The US was not a major player in Arab Spring. It was a major player in a couple of countries (notably, our support for the Yemeni government of Saleh and its successor and our eventual intervention in Libya against Gaddafi at the best of our European allies). But, we were not a major initiator of the tide of change that swept over a number of Arab countries.
At its core, Arab Spring was a domestic issue in its local countries, not a Western-led movement. It's not the first regional wave like this, nor will it be the last. It's what happens in unstable parts of the world with sizable populations of underemployed young men.
And, the main place where ISIS comes from has nothing to do with Arab Spring - ISIS is al Qaeda in Iraq under new leadership. Baghdadi is a Sunni Iraqi. Most of his core leaders are former Baathists or former al Qaeda in Iraq loyalists.
This doesn't excuse the fact that Obama underestimated ISIS, and also that he doesn't seem to have a clear strategy for how to confront it at the moment.
Bush and Cheney's "spread democracy" crap got it all started. Those people have no idea how live under, or run, a democracy. Look at Egypt. They had what seemed to be fair and free elections then didn't like what they got so they took them out too. Now we don't really know what they have. Their form of government is pretty much none of our business and if we had not gotten involved we couldn't get the blame for it among the radicals. Iraq was/is THE biggest recruiting tool for radicals to this day. The guys that were in power were no doubt bad dudes, but they had to be to keep those people under control. Most of them had been our friends for many years until we encouraged or assisted in booting them out. Now look at the mess they have over there, and they think WE should come clean it up.
"Spread Democracy" has been our foreign policy since long before Bush/Cheney. It's just that Clinton, Reagan, Carter, and Ford didn't get as much into the military side of it as Bush did. Vietnam had chastened us.
There's no question that Bush/Cheney had no real plan for how to handle Iraq post-Saddam. This is the #1 failure of their foreign policy. It's like no one even considered what to do.
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I can define Egypt's government for you: military oligarchy. The same thing it has been for most of the last 60 years. It's what Turkey was for much of the mid-late 20th century. They have state-managed elections and they throw out any leader who dares to oppose them.
The last four years have been great for the clique that runs Egypt. The Brotherhood were given just enough rope to hang themselves. This was a great outcome for the powers that be in Egypt. They were able to achieve a generational transfer of power from Mubarak to al-Sisi while embarrassing the Islamists and keeping the military in high esteem. The monied class kept its businesses and fiefdoms. Could you have a scripted a better transfer of power?
There's no question that Bush/Cheney had no real plan for how to handle Iraq post-Saddam. This is the #1 failure of their foreign policy. It's like no one even considered what to do.
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I can define Egypt's government for you: military oligarchy. The same thing it has been for most of the last 60 years. It's what Turkey was for much of the mid-late 20th century. They have state-managed elections and they throw out any leader who dares to oppose them.
The last four years have been great for the clique that runs Egypt. The Brotherhood were given just enough rope to hang themselves. This was a great outcome for the powers that be in Egypt. They were able to achieve a generational transfer of power from Mubarak to al-Sisi while embarrassing the Islamists and keeping the military in high esteem. The monied class kept its businesses and fiefdoms. Could you have a scripted a better transfer of power?
It was pretty funny that the military the masses were sooo mad at when they were rising up against Mubarak turned out to be the government they ended up with. They will rule with the kind of authority we consider a dictatorship. They know nothing else over there.
The problem with the US getting involved with anything like this, is that we don't do what is needed to do to get the job done. Just hearing the stories from both Iraq and Afghanistan will make you shake your head.
We could end all of this rather quickly if the political correct crowd would let our soldiers do their job.
Must be cold over there.
We could end all of this rather quickly if the political correct crowd would let our soldiers do their job.
Must be cold over there.
Drop now you sound like Cheney and Bush if you really think that these problems can be solved rather quickly if we just let our soldiers do their job. We tried that in Nam, Iraq, and Afghanistan and I would ask you how quick those wars ended. The American people are weary of sending their sons and daughters to a foreign land where they are not wanted to die. There is no way to quickly eliminate these terrorists and to say that there is makes me wonder if you would like to just nuke them off the face of the earth.
The best fighters in Iraq seem to be the only group we won't give arms too. The Peshmerga are the baddest fighters around but we don't want to make the "leadership" in Baghdad mad so we won't give them what they need to succeed. Unlike the Iraqi's those guys are willing to fight and we ain't helpin em much. We should give them any kind of arms they asked for and we wouldn't have to worry about ISIS in northern Iraq anymore. You can bet they wouldn't run off and leave it behind for ISIS to use all over the Middle East. Biden and others were right to begin with. Iraq should have been split into 3 separate countries and come up with a plan to share the oil revenue so all could survive.
Hey bobby, which part of this said lets go to war? And which part says we need more soldiers? I simply stated our politicians handcuff our military to the point that they are not even close to being as affective as they could be. Don't be stupid. Go ask somebody who has served.
Good ol'veer, comes in firing aimlessly. Must suck to be you. #youhavenoideawhatthe****youretalkingabout
Also, those two bombs in japan seemed to do what it was intended to do. I know both my Grandparents were thankful to come home from the pacific.
Times have changed obviously.
Really what we should all do is hold hands and sing glory glory hallelujah.
Times have changed obviously.
Really what we should all do is hold hands and sing glory glory hallelujah.
The people loved the military for not interceding on behalf of Mubarak. They weren't mad at them.
affective?
Like you know anything? Oh wait..you bought some soldiers a beer so they'd talk to you. I forgot.
If all the great thinkers like yourself served, we could use them as cannon fodder instead of the ones we send now. Great plan. Now get to that recruiting office!
This post was edited on 2/18 1:55 PM by Veer2Eternity
I'm not one to agree with Veer on just abut anything, but you are taking the convenient view of history. I am a bit of a hawk, however if you think that politics weren't alive and well in how a war was adjudicated prior to Korea and Vietnam you are quite mistaken. FDR, and Churchill were neck deep in war strategy, and generals like Ike were more politician than warriors. The politics that played into the defeat of Nazi Germany and the creation of the Soviet Bloc were incredible and actually quite despicable. Actually, the Soviet Army provides an instructive view into the behavior of soldiers who are allowed to truly fight an enemy to capitulation. The horrors that they inflicted on the German people actually caused them to flee to the western allies in the hope of protection!
Further, the bombing of Hiroshima was really all that needed to be done to realize the goal of Japanese capitulation. It could be argued that Nagasaki was nothing more than a revenge killing(s).
My belief is that the US is quite capable of wiping ISIS and much of the Middle East off the map. The media and the general public will never let it happen. Maybe (and I'm not sure ethically) this is a good thing as true war is a brutal, in-humane abomination. We are however in the case of ISIS we are fighting a truly evil, and committed enemy. I hope that our leaders form a strategy sooner rather than later.
Further, the bombing of Hiroshima was really all that needed to be done to realize the goal of Japanese capitulation. It could be argued that Nagasaki was nothing more than a revenge killing(s).
My belief is that the US is quite capable of wiping ISIS and much of the Middle East off the map. The media and the general public will never let it happen. Maybe (and I'm not sure ethically) this is a good thing as true war is a brutal, in-humane abomination. We are however in the case of ISIS we are fighting a truly evil, and committed enemy. I hope that our leaders form a strategy sooner rather than later.
Evil is determined by which side you're looking from.
When we wiped out cities in Iraq and then used Depleted Uranium as well....that's evil. If you don't think so...drop a case or two opened up in your loved ones bedrooms. Good times.
What it boils down to is this: Most of the GOP leaders and their message bearers on the internets didn't serve. Guys like BG82 that did...he's not talking like these other guys. He's been there and my guess is he'll tell you it's not all gut and glory. War is like you say a brutal and inhumane abomination.
The citizens of the US needs to realize we're not the 'good guys' .
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ag-man
Guest
The citizens of the U.S. need "to realize we're not the good guys" ? What are you meaning Veer ?
Two real easy examples:
Depleted Uranium. What good man would use these things? It causes birth defects and cancer. WE used that in Iraq. Najaf particularly.
Benghazi was a torture house. It's the only thing that makes sense. We torture . That's not 'good'.
Blackwater. We (or we paid people to ) rape and murder all over Iraq.
Ask yourself this..if your town gets invaded tomorrow how will you respond? What if they used DU? Want some grandbabies with birth defects? Cancer more likely than the flu?
WE did that.
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ag-man
Guest
I have researched your examples a little Veer, not going to spend all night on it, your points are arguable. Not going too. If we are so bad here in the U.S., why are you here ?
I am proud of my country, are you?
I am proud of my country, are you?
Silly.
While your boys bush and cheney were avoiding combat in "nam guys like me and bg82s old men were knee deep in the crap while the GOP boys were snorting coke and 'having better things to do'.
Yet those pansies will send more kids into the meat grinder in the Middle East....for what? Iraq was never a threat to us. Period. They were under control of Saddam. Only an idiot thought removing him was a good idea. Lucky for israel and the defense contractors, bush is that idiot.
We always have a boogey man so we can keep using our tax dollars to keep those rich weapons dudes rich. And the only reason it works is because america is dumb.
Why are we doing israel's work (regime change)? Why do we allow dual-citizens (israelis) in our upper government? You are either an American or not..isn't that the line we hear? Dual allegiance is caca. We allow it for what reason?
Religion.
Which makes us no different that the other theocracy in the world: Our good (terrorist) friends Saudi Arabia.
Since 1980 America has gone in the crapper. Vietnam really messed us up. Too many politicians like Reagan that say what we want to hear but do exactly opposite. GOP for fiscal responsibility yet...tada...they NEVER lower the deficit when they're in charge.
And people just keep buying it.
I want my country back.
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ag-man
Guest
As I say Veer, I am sure you are free to leave.
I have a very good friend that is a Vietnam vet as well as a marine brother in law that has seen many a combat in foreign countries. They would probably disagree with your comments.
I have a very good friend that is a Vietnam vet as well as a marine brother in law that has seen many a combat in foreign countries. They would probably disagree with your comments.
NM I guess we remember the uprising in Egypt differently. The military started to crack down on the protestors but decided to hold back. The generals decided it was their chance to gain power. Then the people forced the elections and the Muslim Brotherhood won fair and square. Once the people saw what they had they let the military to take over. Pretty sure the people didn't get what they wanted when they decided to oust Mubarak and I'm real sure WE didn't get anything good out of it. We have continually stuck our nose where it doesn't belong over there and it keeps coming back to bite us. This crap about ousting evil dictators is a joke. There are many of them all over the world that we don't lift a finger to stop from doing as they please to their own people. But I guess most of them don't have any oil to spare.
Just like you and yours are free to leave when you don't like what the Dumocraps do.
Don't be a lemming.
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ag-man
Guest
I am proud of my country when the Democrats or the Republicans are running things. Have we, and do we make mistakes? Yes, but America is still the greatest country on earth.
You comparing her to every other 3rd world dump is a little unappreciative when you are setting in your nice warm house, behind a computer, all safe and sound. A lot of people in the world are not so fortunate.
You comparing her to every other 3rd world dump is a little unappreciative when you are setting in your nice warm house, behind a computer, all safe and sound. A lot of people in the world are not so fortunate.
Lets face it, a whole lot of our military grunts weren't exactly the sharpest tools in the box. They are used like pawns and don't even appreciate leaders who do everything they can NOT to put them in harm's way. Then they defend the cowardly idiots like
W and Cheney who use false pretenses to get our own boys slaughtered and then say
the doves "don't support the troops". You are as dumb as they are if you are proud of us torturing
innocent people. If you don't think that lead to more beheadings please never vote again.
W and Cheney who use false pretenses to get our own boys slaughtered and then say
the doves "don't support the troops". You are as dumb as they are if you are proud of us torturing
innocent people. If you don't think that lead to more beheadings please never vote again.
I can't agree with your last line. No doubt there is a great amount of gray, however in many instances the US is pulled into conflicts because as the wealthiest and most powerful player we are forced to intervene in many cases. While the picture is rarely clear this role requires picking the slightly lesser of the evils in order to maintain some semblance of order. To act otherwise would take us back to the isolationist days and there are negative consequences of that approach as well.
I do think that we are the good guys - at least the intent is generally on target.
Finally, there are activities that go on every day that we here arguing never hear about (and maybe that is for the best!). It is a very scary world out there and sadly someone has to the the police officer.
I do think that we are the good guys - at least the intent is generally on target.
Finally, there are activities that go on every day that we here arguing never hear about (and maybe that is for the best!). It is a very scary world out there and sadly someone has to the the police officer.
There is a reason the citizens of Arab countries overwhelmingly hate the United States. It has to do with our actions just as much as it has to do with propaganda.
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ag-man
Guest
So are you saying NM, that we are the BAD guys, and Bashar al-Assad, isis and al-Qaeda for example, are the GOOD guys?
Never said that. But, we have to be aware of our footprint.
Let's take Sunnis in Iraq for an example. This group went from being in charge of Iraq under Saddam to being completely marginalized by the Shia. This is why the mid 2000's Iraq war was so bad in places like Fallujah - we were fighting the Sunni insurgents who were, at their core, fighting against the Shia government (who we were propping up). America acted, basically, as an agent of the Shias. This infuriated a large number of Sunnis all over the Arab world.
Guess who forms the core of ISIS? These same Sunni Iraqis. Guess how they feel about America right now?
The core of it all goes back to Israel, though, and that cannot be understated. We have clearly picked Israel as our main ally, and that has a big impact on the population of nearly every Arab country. You have to acknowledge this fact when you consider American action in Arab countries.
Let's take Sunnis in Iraq for an example. This group went from being in charge of Iraq under Saddam to being completely marginalized by the Shia. This is why the mid 2000's Iraq war was so bad in places like Fallujah - we were fighting the Sunni insurgents who were, at their core, fighting against the Shia government (who we were propping up). America acted, basically, as an agent of the Shias. This infuriated a large number of Sunnis all over the Arab world.
Guess who forms the core of ISIS? These same Sunni Iraqis. Guess how they feel about America right now?
The core of it all goes back to Israel, though, and that cannot be understated. We have clearly picked Israel as our main ally, and that has a big impact on the population of nearly every Arab country. You have to acknowledge this fact when you consider American action in Arab countries.
I always hear what a great ally Israel is to us but I don't recall them sending troops or bombers to many of the places we have had a "coalition" of countries helping us in our battles in the Middle East. Has Israel ever sent some of their firepower, or man power, to fight beside U.S. troops in any of these conflicts? If so I never hear about a number of troops or war planes they're helping us out with.
He shows us very questionable info that shows that war is not neat and clean then won't answer a direct question. You waste your time trying to pin him down on ANY issue.
I have a nephew who served in Iraq who has 2 masters and is getting his PHD at Yale currently. He must have been snookered by W and Cheney.
War is hell! Winning is the goal (at least it used to be) and playing nice doesn't win wars.
To step back from the anecdotes, if you go to the actual data, that's not a common thing anymore.
The US military used to come from all classes in the days when we had a draft. In 2015, the military is disproportionately made up of grunts from lower middle class families who reside rural areas.
To go to the anecdote, I and all of my first cousins grew up in metropolises and all have college degrees. None of us ever spent a day in the military. We are what America is like in 2015 - people like me join the military at a very low rate compared to a kid from rural Missouri whose parents didn't go to college.
War is fought by young adults who went to Poplar Bluff High who enlist straight from high school, it's not fought by kids who went to CBC or Parkway West and then went to Mizzou.
The US military used to come from all classes in the days when we had a draft. In 2015, the military is disproportionately made up of grunts from lower middle class families who reside rural areas.
To go to the anecdote, I and all of my first cousins grew up in metropolises and all have college degrees. None of us ever spent a day in the military. We are what America is like in 2015 - people like me join the military at a very low rate compared to a kid from rural Missouri whose parents didn't go to college.
War is fought by young adults who went to Poplar Bluff High who enlist straight from high school, it's not fought by kids who went to CBC or Parkway West and then went to Mizzou.
