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Fire Matheny now.

Duck_walk

Duck_walk

Well-Known Member
Oct 17, 2002
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They have fixed NOTHING.

First inning and they have the slow footed Carpenter thrown out by 20 feet at home on a routine hit to left center. Its just absurd. Your fifth place hitter is coming up, there is no reason to take a risk with a damn tortoise on the bases. The coach literally got Carp hurt by sending him when he had no chance.
 
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Do they ever work on fundamental skills?
Wacha bunts the ball straight down for a DP.
Even the ESPN announcers question the teams fundamentals. Unbelievable.
 
Do you really want journeyman Bowman vs the league mvp in the 8th inning of a 1 run game? If Oh and Rosey cant pitch in that spot...wth
 
Duck_walk said:
Do you really want journeyman Bowman vs the league mvp in the 8th inning of a 1 run game? If Oh and Rosey cant pitch in that spot...wth
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Then speedy Yadi get thrown out by 3 feet trying to steal right before a HR. UHHHHGGGGGG:confused::confused::mad::mad::eek::eek::(:(This team needs to be taken apart.
 
Wth was yadi doing running in a tied game and thrown out easily? GET CONTROL OF YOUR TEAM.
 
Duck_walk said:
Wth was yadi doing running in a tied game and thrown out easily? GET CONTROL OF YOUR TEAM.
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When ur 2 leaders run into out after out something has to be done. This game could be 4 or 5 to 3. At this point MO has to be held just as responsible. Something has to be done this type of baseball should not be allowed to continue. As a fan I have no confidence that this team will ever win unless their up by 5 in the 8th inning and even that is sketchy
 
One thing the Birds do better than anyone else in baseball is take a called 3rd strike on a 3-2 count and cry about it.
 
vbsideout said:
When ur 2 leaders run into out after out something has to be done. This game could be 4 or 5 to 3. At this point MO has to be held just as responsible. Something has to be done this type of baseball should not be allowed to continue. As a fan I have no confidence that this team will ever win unless their up by 5 in the 8th inning and even that is sketchy
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I've mentioned before that most managers of a team that has a winning tradition lie the Cards and have played this bad for half a season would have been gone long before now. Maybe Mo got out of the GM job so he doesn't have to be the one to fire him.
 
Mo and Matheny are both to blame. What an inferior product they are pedaling. Gyorko and Yadi at 4 and 5???? Are you kidding me? How did this happen to a great organization? Piss poor planning.
 
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3Rfan said:
I've mentioned before that most managers of a team that has a winning tradition lie the Cards and have played this bad for half a season would have been gone long before now. Maybe Mo got out of the GM job so he doesn't have to be the one to fire him.
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This has been going on or 1.5 seasons
 
HomeyR said:
Does your ownership even care ?
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Yes I believe Bill DeWitt does care. You don't compile the record they have just by accident. They've done so pretty much without breaking the bank. They think they can still do that and be competitive. One thing I don't think they thought would happen is the just plain bad play that's been going on for some time now. This team would likely be leading the division if they just played sound ball. There's easily 5 games that could have had a different outcome if not for mental errors. The issue is how is this bad direction going to turn around. Possibly a bigger issue I think is they really do like MM and want to see him succeed.

The questions that have to be gnawing at Mr DeWitt are 1) will a trade or two turn them into a legitimate threat this year, or 2) do they bail on this year, make a few changes and try to get more help next winter, or 3) do they decide that a lot of the issues fall back on coaching and make a big move there.

Honestly I'll be shocked if they bail on MM. I also don't think they completely bail on the season. That's just not DeWitt's mentality. I think they'll try to make a deal or two and see if it provides enough spark to make them a playoff contender.
 
oldroundballer said:
Yes I believe Bill DeWitt does care. You don't compile the record they have just by accident. They've done so pretty much without breaking the bank. They think they can still do that and be competitive. One thing I don't think they thought would happen is the just plain bad play that's been going on for some time now. This team would likely be leading the division if they just played sound ball. There's easily 5 games that could have had a different outcome if not for mental errors. The issue is how is this bad direction going to turn around. Possibly a bigger issue I think is they really do like MM and want to see him succeed.

The questions that have to be gnawing at Mr DeWitt are 1) will a trade or two turn them into a legitimate threat this year, or 2) do they bail on this year, make a few changes and try to get more help next winter, or 3) do they decide that a lot of the issues fall back on coaching and make a big move there.

Honestly I'll be shocked if they bail on MM. I also don't think they completely bail on the season. That's just not DeWitt's mentality. I think they'll try to make a deal or two and see if it provides enough spark to make them a playoff contender.
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They have the supporting cast to win if they place a star in the middle of the line up and shore up the D up the middle. The Cardinals have never won without a star. In either of our lifetimes.
 
Duck_walk said:
They have the supporting cast to win if they place a star in the middle of the line up and shore up the D up the middle. The Cardinals have never won without a star. In either of our lifetimes.
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... and in order to achieve that, someone (ownership) is going to have to loosen the purse strings. My original point remains...
 
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HomeyR said:
... and in order to achieve that, someone (ownership) is going to have to loosen the purse strings. My original point remains...
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I agree Homey, but hey they will tell us they tried but just came in 2nd place.
 
vbsideout said:
I agree Homey, but hey they will tell us they tried but just came in 2nd place.
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They have opened up the purse strings but nor for the right people. $30 million for a LH reliever that can't get lefties out?!!! A new contract for Piscotty before he proved he could repeat last years numbers at the plate? A new contract for Wong before he proved ANYTHING on a consistent basis? I still think the Fowler is a bust. I've seen NOTHING to make me believe he an upgrade to the OF in Stl. He plays very deep so he can cut off a ball in the gap, maybe, but he gives up a lot of base hits in front of him and he has a avery average arm. I'm won't jump on them for his hitting, I doubt anyone could have guessed he would hit as poorly as he has this year. I would like to know if they got duped on his heel issues. I never heard a word about such a thing until he was out of the lineup recently because of it. If they were going go get an upgrade in the OF it should have been one that hits for power AND plays good defense. I realize that would have cost more but they have the frickin money! I'm all done now. :D
 
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Fowler is a CF with an 800 OPS. In no world is he hitting badly. He's fine. He's not over performing but he's been the stable ML average guy they thought they were buying. He's getting 16 M a year in free agency. That's the cost of a fine player. Not a star.

You gotta think of Wong and piscotty contracts more like lotto tickets where players take set for life money in exchange for giving up their upside. They overpay guys if they suck and underpay them if they develop. Cards have a 150 M payroll. Spending 30 M over five years is not a major commitment overall. Especially if you can buy some team friendly options as a part of the deal. Some of them turn into terrible deals like Allen Craig. Other times you wind up with the original Waino deal which bought two super cheap options.
 
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Neutron Monster said:
Fowler is a CF with an 800 OPS. In no world is he hitting badly. He's fine. He's not over performing but he's been the stable ML average guy they thought they were buying. He's getting 16 M a year in free agency. That's the cost of a fine player. Not a star.

You gotta think of Wong and piscotty contracts more like lotto tickets where players take set for life money in exchange for giving up their upside. They overpay guys if they suck and underpay them if they develop. Cards have a 150 M payroll. Spending 30 M over five years is not a major commitment overall. Especially if you can buy some team friendly options as a part of the deal. Some of them turn into terrible deals like Allen Craig. Other times you wind up with a Salvador Perez deal.
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I don't care what the other numbers say, hitting .240 is NOT very productive. Is Fowler is hitting as well as he did with the Cubs last year? That's what they thought they were getting.
I think somebody should tell Wong, and several others on this team, to RUN to 1st base every time they hit the ball. The ball he hit down the line tonight was never a sure foul ball like he treated it. You just run!! They'll tell you to come back if it's foul or if some one catches it. That stuff drives me crazy and there is NO excuse for it at ANY level!
 
3Rfan said:
I don't care what the other numbers say, hitting .240 is NOT very productive. Is Fowler is hitting as well as he did with the Cubs last year? That's what they thought they were getting.
I think somebody should tell Wong, and several others on this team, to RUN to 1st base every time they hit the ball. The ball he hit down the line tonight was never a sure foul ball like he treated it. You just run!! They'll tell you to come back if it's foul or if some one catches it. That stuff drives me crazy and there is NO excuse for it at ANY level!
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Should have been a triple and earlier Yadi hit a ball down the line and he didn't run and the ball came very close to dropping. These are the type of things that keep you from winning.
 
oldroundballer said:
Yes I believe Bill DeWitt does care. You don't compile the record they have just by accident. They've done so pretty much without breaking the bank. They think they can still do that and be competitive. One thing I don't think they thought would happen is the just plain bad play that's been going on for some time now. This team would likely be leading the division if they just played sound ball. There's easily 5 games that could have had a different outcome if not for mental errors. The issue is how is this bad direction going to turn around. Possibly a bigger issue I think is they really do like MM and want to see him succeed.

The questions that have to be gnawing at Mr DeWitt are 1) will a trade or two turn them into a legitimate threat this year, or 2) do they bail on this year, make a few changes and try to get more help next winter, or 3) do they decide that a lot of the issues fall back on coaching and make a big move there.

Honestly I'll be shocked if they bail on MM. I also don't think they completely bail on the season. That's just not DeWitt's mentality. I think they'll try to make a deal or two and see if it provides enough spark to make them a playoff contender.
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I wouldn't be shocked to see a change at manager, but I'd be surprised. MM's warts are becoming obvious, even to those of us that haven't pounded on him since the beginning.

I'd also be a bit surprised to not see the Birds punt on this season. Too many pieces that hold value to other teams in the short-term (Lynn, Rosie/Oh, OF depth), that the front office don't view as vital to a 2018 run. I do not believe you'll see a fire sale/ complete rebuild, but I do believe you'll see some movement to ready for 2018. Or maybe that's my hope.
 
3Rfan said:
I don't care what the other numbers say, hitting .240 is NOT very productive. Is Fowler is hitting as well as he did with the Cubs last year? That's what they thought they were getting.
I think somebody should tell Wong, and several others on this team, to RUN to 1st base every time they hit the ball. The ball he hit down the line tonight was never a sure foul ball like he treated it. You just run!! They'll tell you to come back if it's foul or if some one catches it. That stuff drives me crazy and there is NO excuse for it at ANY level!
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1. No, the Cards didn't necessarily think they were getting the guy the Cubs had. No team should be thinking this in 2017. They should be looking at the overall career, the aging curve, etc. Dexter hit .250 in 2015. I can pretty much guarantee you that the Cardinals projected him to hit under .276 for 2017 when they signed him. That's what every external projection expected.

The Cards are way, way too advanced on this stuff to seriously believe they were signing 2016 Dexter Fowler for the next five years.

2. A guy hitting .240 can be plenty productive when he walks in 12% of his plate appearances and 10% of his at bats result in extra base hits. We are talking about a guy who plays an up the middle defensive position at a league average level.

You would do a better job evaluating players by looking at OBP and SLG than BA.
 
Eagles_Ball said:
I wouldn't be shocked to see a change at manager, but I'd be surprised. MM's warts are becoming obvious, even to those of us that haven't pounded on him since the beginning.

I'd also be a bit surprised to not see the Birds punt on this season. Too many pieces that hold value to other teams in the short-term (Lynn, Rosie/Oh, OF depth), that the front office don't view as vital to a 2018 run. I do not believe you'll see a fire sale/ complete rebuild, but I do believe you'll see some movement to ready for 2018. Or maybe that's my hope.
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They don't necessarily have to punt, but they have to think some of these guys aren't in their long term plans. Are you really going to resign Oh and Lynn?

The OF depth feels like it is set up for a trade as well, as you note. that feels more like a position of strength type of thing, though - you have a lot of young guys who you could, in theory, move for a quality major leaguer now.
 
Neutron Monster said:
They don't necessarily have to punt, but they have to think some of these guys aren't in their long term plans. Are you really going to resign Oh and Lynn?

The OF depth feels like it is set up for a trade as well, as you note. that feels more like a position of strength type of thing, though - you have a lot of young guys who you could, in theory, move for a quality major leaguer now.
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I would suspect this is exactly what the Cards are thinking and it makes perfect sense. If they tank this week it might change but I don't expect that. I expect them to still have a decent chance at the division. They're only 4 games back now. That's nothing over 2 months. They can make a couple of moves and still stay in contention, maybe even improve the odds.
 
oldroundballer said:
I would suspect this is exactly what the Cards are thinking and it makes perfect sense. If they tank this week it might change but I don't expect that. I expect them to still have a decent chance at the division. They're only 4 games back now. That's nothing over 2 months. They can make a couple of moves and still stay in contention, maybe even improve the odds.
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It feels like the Cards could do a mix of tanking and obtaining current ML talent - i.e. dump Lynn/Oh but throw in a minor league OF to get a current ML player
 
Neutron Monster said:
It feels like the Cards could do a mix of tanking and obtaining current ML talent - i.e. dump Lynn/Oh but throw in a minor league OF to get a current ML player
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Imagine this, of all mlb players with 700 or more plate appearances since the beginning of 2016, Grichuk has the second worst OBP.

You dont learn plate discipline at the major league level. When Dejong's hot streak ends you will see something similar.
 
They would be absolute idiots to keep Jedd. Move his low level contract at a peak value he will never reach again.

Lynn, Oh, Rosenthal & Carp(if you keep Jedd). Hell, I'd move Pham too. 29 year old who had barely played and all of a sudden is putting up All Star numbers..... milk that trade value.
 
wccards21 said:
They would be absolute idiots to keep Jedd. Move his low level contract at a peak value he will never reach again.

Lynn, Oh, Rosenthal & Carp(if you keep Jedd). Hell, I'd move Pham too. 29 year old who had barely played and all of a sudden is putting up All Star numbers..... milk that trade value.
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I totally agree. You can trade Lynn and then sign him as a free agent if you like. Carp is a DH. Pham will never be more valuable than he is right now. They already blew it not trading Adams or Wong earlier. They just cant pull the trigger. Ball less. Buy low. Sell high is pretty simple.
 
Duck_walk said:
Imagine this, of all mlb players with 700 or more plate appearances since the beginning of 2016, Grichuk has the second worst OBP.

You dont learn plate discipline at the major league level. When Dejong's hot streak ends you will see something similar.
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Both of these guys are borderline major leaguers unless they get a little better at getting on base, yeah.

I do wonder if Grichuk has a market. He seems like the kind of guy someone wants to take a chance on.
 
Duck_walk said:
I totally agree. You can trade Lynn and then sign him as a free agent if you like. Carp is a DH. Pham will never be more valuable than he is right now. They already blew it not trading Adams or Wong earlier. They just cant pull the trigger. Ball less. Buy low. Sell high is pretty simple.
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The Adams/Carp nonsense bothers me more than Wong. They thought Wong would hold 2B cheaply so they could spend in FA at other positions. It made sense, although it's the sort of move that makes more sense if you're making splashes in free agency.

But what the plan was with Carp/Adams/Moss...sheesh.
 
Neutron Monster said:
Both of these guys are borderline major leaguers unless they get a little better at getting on base, yeah.

I do wonder if Grichuk has a market. He seems like the kind of guy someone wants to take a chance on.
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you might get a small market AL team to bite as a DH. Maybe Oakland? TB? Very limited window to move him though
 
wccards21 said:
you might get a small market AL team to bite as a DH. Maybe Oakland? TB? Very limited window to move him though
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He's not a DH. He's a decent corner OF from a defensive standpoint. We aren't talking about Mark Trumbo here. He can play in the field for any team.

He's a 25 year old who is still not even eligible for arbitration with oodles of power. Teams will take a flier on a guy like that. I'm not saying you get a stud, but all it takes is one team to take a bite. You'd like him to show a little more progress, though.
 
Neutron Monster said:
He's not a DH. He's a decent corner OF from a defensive standpoint. We aren't talking about Mark Trumbo here. He can play in the field for any team.

He's a 25 year old who is still not even eligible for arbitration with oodles of power. Teams will take a flier on a guy like that. I'm not saying you get a stud, but all it takes is one team to take a bite. You'd like him to show a little more progress, though.
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I wouldn't want him in my OF, personally. He's not Kris Davis bad, but mehhhh.
 
wccards21 said:
I wouldn't want him in my OF, personally. He's not Kris Davis bad, but mehhhh.
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He grades out slightly above average to both the scouts and the stats guys as a corner OF. He has pretty good range/speed for a guy with power (being about 26 years old helps here)

the real issue remains OBP and contact
 
Neutron Monster said:
It feels like the Cards could do a mix of tanking and obtaining current ML talent - i.e. dump Lynn/Oh but throw in a minor league OF to get a current ML player
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What has Lance Lynn done to deserve the lack of respect he has had as a Cardinal? All he does is win and he didn't even have to have some crazy hair style to do it. :confused:
 
Neutron Monster said:
1. No, the Cards didn't necessarily think they were getting the guy the Cubs had. No team should be thinking this in 2017. They should be looking at the overall career, the aging curve, etc. Dexter hit .250 in 2015. I can pretty much guarantee you that the Cardinals projected him to hit under .276 for 2017 when they signed him. That's what every external projection expected.

The Cards are way, way too advanced on this stuff to seriously believe they were signing 2016 Dexter Fowler for the next five years.

2. A guy hitting .240 can be plenty productive when he walks in 12% of his plate appearances and 10% of his at bats result in extra base hits. We are talking about a guy who plays an up the middle defensive position at a league average level.

You would do a better job evaluating players by looking at OBP and SLG than BA.
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Imagine how good he could be if he would just hit from the left side all the time. Why do guys insist on being a switch hitter when their numbers are so much worse from one side?
 
3Rfan said:
Imagine how good he could be if he would just hit from the left side all the time. Why do guys insist on being a switch hitter when their numbers are so much worse from one side?
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I just saw Fowler is back on the DL with a forearm issue. At least we get a look Bader now.
 
Bowman gives up another bomb in the 8th inning. Why? Why? Why is he in there?
 
3Rfan said:
What has Lance Lynn done to deserve the lack of respect he has had as a Cardinal? All he does is win and he didn't even have to have some crazy hair style to do it. :confused:
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Have a contract that expires in about 2.3 months is really all it is.

The question is are you going to sign him vs. use Reyes/Weaver/etc. and spend the money elsewhere? It may take a Leake-like deal to bring him back. When you consider the contract situations of Martinez/Leake/Waino/Wacha plus Reyes/Weaver being under team control for another half a decade each...it's plausible to think the Cards may move on.
 
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