Fair Deal on North Korean Nukes

[outsideveer89]

What if Trump would offer to remove all US forces from South Korea in exchange for North Korea giving up all nuclear weapons and ballistic missile program assets. Program to be implemented and verified by UN including US inspectors and technicians to VERIFY they are doing away with nukes and missile program

we don't really need the 25,000 servicemen there, they are basically a tripwire, if we move them to Japan they could be back on station at the DMZ in a matter of hours.

Commit to signing a peace treaty ending the war, but no US aid to North Korea of any kind unlike the Clinton/Albright deal

if we don't do something to defuse the situation we might as well start shooting now and do away with North Korea before its a real threat to the USA

 

[wcowherd]

I think it’s fantasy to believe NK will give up their weapons program. The only reason Un wants to meet with Trump is to be seen on the world stage as his equal.

 

[Blizzard2.0]

Failed Libs need to chill.

Trump’s got this.

 

[millerbleach]

Failed Libs need to chill.

Trump’s got this.

Time will tell what the end of the story is but, Trump has gotten much farther than anyone thought possible already. The launches have stopped, NK and SK are working together some and, just talking about disarming NK was unthinkable just a couple months ago. Un has an ego that Trump could possibly stroke to get more progress.

Not bad no matter how the story ends.

 

[wcowherd]

Time will tell what the end of the story is but, Trump has gotten much farther than anyone thought possible already. The launches have stopped, NK and SK are working together some and, just talking about disarming NK was unthinkable just a couple months ago. Un has an ego that Trump could possibly stroke to get more progress.

Not bad no matter how the story ends.

There are plenty of ways this story ends badly.

 

[Neutron Monster]

Time will tell what the end of the story is but, Trump has gotten much farther than anyone thought possible already. The launches have stopped, NK and SK are working together some and, just talking about disarming NK was unthinkable just a couple months ago. Un has an ego that Trump could possibly stroke to get more progress.

Not bad no matter how the story ends.

What? Much farther? Agreeing to get on a plane is not much farther, and Trump has nothing to do with NK and SK talking. That has to do with SK having a new President.

What serious concessions have been extracted? What sanctions have been removed? That sort of thing.

 

[Neutron Monster]

What if Trump would offer to remove all US forces from South Korea in exchange for North Korea giving up all nuclear weapons and ballistic missile program assets. Program to be implemented and verified by UN including US inspectors and technicians to VERIFY they are doing away with nukes and missile program

we don't really need the 25,000 servicemen there, they are basically a tripwire, if we move them to Japan they could be back on station at the DMZ in a matter of hours.

Commit to signing a peace treaty ending the war, but no US aid to North Korea of any kind unlike the Clinton/Albright deal

if we don't do something to defuse the situation we might as well start shooting now and do away with North Korea before its a real threat to the USA

It's pure fantasy to think NK is going to give up its entire nuclear weapons program.

It'd be a great win if they accomplished that, don't get me wrong, but it's not going to happen.

 

[vbsideout]

More blabbering from the blabber mouth and chief!

 

[3Rfan]

Time will tell what the end of the story is but, Trump has gotten much farther than anyone thought possible already. The launches have stopped, NK and SK are working together some and, just talking about disarming NK was unthinkable just a couple months ago. Un has an ego that Trump could possibly stroke to get more progress.

Not bad no matter how the story ends.

Or Un could stroke Trump's ego and get him to say anything he wants him to. I really hope some grownups are in the room when/if this meeting ever takes place, and with a good translator.
I have never understood why we think our president shouldn't talk to a foreign adversary as if he/she is on the same level as he is. Like it or not Un IS the leader of his country so he IS on the same level. If it makes him feel better to treat as such go for it. If we don't talk to our adversaries how do we know what it will take to appease their concerns about the U.S. overthrowing their government or wiping them off the face of the earth? I'd say moving a LOT of troops out of SK would be good start if that would make them give on something too. A ground war there would not be a pretty site for anyone involved so why not pull out a LOT of our soldiers for starters? Look at all the money it would save.

 

[Neutron Monster]

Or Un could stroke Trump's ego and get him to say anything he wants him to. I really hope some grownups are in the room when/if this meeting ever takes place, and with a good translator.
I have never understood why we think our president shouldn't talk to a foreign adversary as if he/she is on the same level as he is. Like it or not Un IS the leader of his country so he IS on the same level. If it makes him feel better to treat as such go for it. If we don't talk to our adversaries how do we know what it will take to appease their concerns about the U.S. overthrowing their government or wiping them off the face of the earth? I'd say moving a LOT of troops out of SK would be good start if that would make them give on something too. A ground war there would not be a pretty site for anyone involved so why not pull out a LOT of our soldiers for starters? Look at all the money it would save.

Because he will use it for propaganda. It means more to them than to us. We always held it in reserve as a a reward for a diplomatic win

 

[3Rfan]

Because he will use it for propaganda. It means more to them than to us. We always held it in reserve as a a reward for a diplomatic win

If you don't talk how the hell will you ever get anything else done? So what if get to brag he talked to a U.S, president, at we ain't shooting at each other, or worse launching missiles at each other. China has been very little help, more likely they've been helping NK deal with the sanction along with Russia. Why do you think China is so against US talking to NK directly? This insanity of not talking directly to the leader of a country we're at odds with is just that, INSANITY!!

 

[Neutron Monster]

If you don't talk how the hell will you ever get anything else done? So what if get to brag he talked to a U.S, president, at we ain't shooting at each other, or worse launching missiles at each other. China has been very little help, more likely they've been helping NK deal with the sanction along with Russia. Why do you think China is so against US talking to NK directly? This insanity of not talking directly to the leader of a country we're at odds with is just that, INSANITY!!

We have lots of ways to talk with them that don't involve giving them a PR win. We have an entire Cabinet department dedicated to this sort of diplomacy. Meeting the President is a dog and pony show for the cameras.

China, by all accounts, has actually come down pretty hard over the last 6-12 months on NK. They have cut off their exports. Much moreso than in the past. Russia...not so much.

 

[3Rfan]

We have lots of ways to talk with them that don't involve giving them a PR win. We have an entire Cabinet department dedicated to this sort of diplomacy. Meeting the President is a dog and pony show for the cameras.

China, by all accounts, has actually come down pretty hard over the last 6-12 months on NK. They have cut off their exports. Much moreso than in the past. Russia...not so much.

So what does a PR win get them? Pretty much no one likes them so why do we care? That little fat guy IS the leader of a nuclear power country and he might just be crazy enough to use them, we better think about that before we piss him off any more. Let our crazy leader talk to him if that will make him back off. What is the great alternative that we have? None of this 'we ain't talkin to you' crap has gained us anything in the last 50 years, maybe it's time we try something different.

 

[wcowherd]

I would think the danger in letting Trump talk directly to Un is he might say something stupid. Hard to imagine I know.

 

[3Rfan]

I would think the danger in letting Trump talk directly to Un is he might say something stupid. Hard to imagine I know.

That is what I'm most concerned about. That's why I said I hope they have some adults in the room from our side and a good translator. I still say talking is better than not talking and giving a little is better than stickling our feet in the ground, or head in the sand. If we're talking to each other we're most likely NOT shooting at each other. Kinda like on these message boards, people will say a LOT of things on here they would NEVER say to somebody in person. But then again I'm pretty sure Trump ain't on here.

 

[wcowherd]

I would not have Trump negotiate a deal with NK for the same reason I’m glad Obama did not personally negotiate the Iran deal. Neither are an expert in nuclear policy and the state department has people that are experts. Let them handle it.

 

[Neutron Monster]

So what does a PR win get them? Pretty much no one likes them so why do we care? That little fat guy IS the leader of a nuclear power country and he might just be crazy enough to use them, we better think about that before we piss him off any more. Let our crazy leader talk to him if that will make him back off. What is the great alternative that we have? None of this 'we ain't talkin to you' crap has gained us anything in the last 50 years, maybe it's time we try something different.

Internal stability is their #1 goal. Your first question answers itself when you think about it like that.

 

[Neutron Monster]

That is what I'm most concerned about. That's why I said I hope they have some adults in the room from our side and a good translator. I still say talking is better than not talking and giving a little is better than stickling our feet in the ground, or head in the sand. If we're talking to each other we're most likely NOT shooting at each other. Kinda like on these message boards, people will say a LOT of things on here they would NEVER say to somebody in person. But then again I'm pretty sure Trump ain't on here.

You keep acting like trump going to NK is a substantive negotiation. That’s not what it is.

The real talks happen behind the scenes

 

[bullitpdq68]

How is this any different than when Obama tried to stabilize relations with Cuba and Castro? They gave up nothing and Obama decided to try and normalize relations with them. And I am not saying he was wrong just saying it comes to a point we forget what we were actually fighting for. Some of these wars or domestic squabbles were fought decades ago. While NK does treat their people bad today, our government still does business with other countries that might also be just as bad on their people but don't care because they have something to offer. But I don't see this as a bad thing to try.

Trump probable is not the best person to try and pull this off, would rather see somebody else do it. I am sure NK knows he has a big ego and has thought to themselves they might be able to use that to their advantage, number one they can meet with him.

 

[Blizzard2.0]

How is this any different than when Obama tried to stabilize relations with Cuba and Castro? They gave up nothing and Obama decided to try and normalize relations with them. And I am not saying he was wrong just saying it comes to a point we forget what we were actually fighting for. Some of these wars or domestic squabbles were fought decades ago. While NK does treat their people bad today, our government still does business with other countries that might also be just as bad on their people but don't care because they have something to offer. But I don't see this as a bad thing to try.

Trump probable is not the best person to try and pull this off, would rather see somebody else do it. I am sure NK knows he has a big ego and has thought to themselves they might be able to use that to their advantage, number one they can meet with him.

Hopefully Trump won't wire a billion bucks to NK and hope for the best.

 

[Neutron Monster]

How is this any different than when Obama tried to stabilize relations with Cuba and Castro? They gave up nothing and Obama decided to try and normalize relations with them. And I am not saying he was wrong just saying it comes to a point we forget what we were actually fighting for. Some of these wars or domestic squabbles were fought decades ago. While NK does treat their people bad today, our government still does business with other countries that might also be just as bad on their people but don't care because they have something to offer. But I don't see this as a bad thing to try.

Trump probable is not the best person to try and pull this off, would rather see somebody else do it. I am sure NK knows he has a big ego and has thought to themselves they might be able to use that to their advantage, number one they can meet with him.

I'm not saying Cuba is an amazing, friendly place, but there's not a real comparison between NK of 2018 and Cuba of 2015.

NK is a significant proliferator of weapons, a rampant cyber criminal, a major developer of missile and nuclear weapon technology, someone who used a chemical weapon overseas within the last 18 months, a regime which uses overseas embassies to carry out significant frauds, a constant violator of sanctions, and a general threat to peace in its region of the world.

Cuba is a repressive regime, and it has some nasty friends, but it's no NK.

NK is under significant, world-wide sanctions because the US, its allies, and some of its enemies believe it is a threat to the global order. That's not what Cuba was. It was a place with US-specific sanctions related to actions from multiple decades ago.

The Cuban sanctions were an anachronism left in place to placate Cuban voters in Miami, not to achieve a foreign policy goal. Obama was accepting reality when he got rid of them. They weren't in place with a global effort to achieve some obvious policy goal (regime change is not a realistic goal to be achieved by US-only sanctions)

Obama/EU/Russia Iran deal is the more realistic comparison.

 

[Neutron Monster]

How is this any different than when Obama tried to stabilize relations with Cuba and Castro? They gave up nothing and Obama decided to try and normalize relations with them. And I am not saying he was wrong just saying it comes to a point we forget what we were actually fighting for. Some of these wars or domestic squabbles were fought decades ago. While NK does treat their people bad today, our government still does business with other countries that might also be just as bad on their people but don't care because they have something to offer. But I don't see this as a bad thing to try.

Trump probable is not the best person to try and pull this off, would rather see somebody else do it. I am sure NK knows he has a big ego and has thought to themselves they might be able to use that to their advantage, number one they can meet with him.

NK wants to be able to say that it is so powerful that it got the evil President of the US to fly all the way to Pyongyang to meet its Great Leader. This is not a diplomatic negotiation event to NK. It is a win that will be broadcast on TV for years and years.

If the US wants a win, it has to get it before Trump goes. His attendance is leverage.

 

[bullitpdq68]

NK wants to be able to say that it is so powerful that it got the evil President of the US to fly all the way to Pyongyang to meet its Great Leader. This is not a diplomatic negotiation event to NK. It is a win that will be broadcast on TV for years and years.

If the US wants a win, it has to get it before Trump goes. His attendance is leverage.

But it is only a win in the eyes of their citizens, the average Joe or Mary could care less about who traveled but more about what comes out of the process.

 

[bullitpdq68]

I'm not saying Cuba is an amazing, friendly place, but there's not a real comparison between NK of 2018 and Cuba of 2015.

NK is a significant proliferator of weapons, a rampant cyber criminal, a major developer of missile and nuclear weapon technology, someone who used a chemical weapon overseas within the last 18 months, a regime which uses overseas embassies to carry out significant frauds, a constant violator of sanctions, and a general threat to peace in its region of the world.

Cuba is a repressive regime, and it has some nasty friends, but it's no NK.

NK is under significant, world-wide sanctions because the US, its allies, and some of its enemies believe it is a threat to the global order. That's not what Cuba was. It was a place with US-specific sanctions related to actions from multiple decades ago.

The Cuban sanctions were an anachronism left in place to placate Cuban voters in Miami, not to achieve a foreign policy goal. Obama was accepting reality when he got rid of them. They weren't in place with a global effort to achieve some obvious policy goal (regime change is not a realistic goal to be achieved by US-only sanctions)

Obama/EU/Russia Iran deal is the more realistic comparison.

All I am saying is I don't care who does what but I think it is time to try something new, just in the case of Cuba and some of the other deals we have made. As long as we don't give away the house like we did with Iran.

But again I don't know if Trump is the best man for the job in this case, I think his ego is a huge negative.

 

[Neutron Monster]

But it is only a win in the eyes of their citizens, the average Joe or Mary could care less about who traveled but more about what comes out of the process.

Sure, but when you're the despotic leader of NK, you care about your citizens a heck of a lot more than Joe or Mary in the US

His goal is to remain in power. Trump visiting makes him look powerful to his people, which helps him achieve his main goal.

 

[Neutron Monster]

All I am saying is I don't care who does what but I think it is time to try something new, just in the case of Cuba and some of the other deals we have made. As long as we don't give away the house like we did with Iran.

But again I don't know if Trump is the best man for the job in this case, I think his ego is a huge negative.

I don't disagree with trying, but I note the track record here suggests we should keep our expectations low. And it also suggests the US shouldn't give away a visit from the President without getting something of value.

 

[bullitpdq68]

I don't disagree with trying, but I note the track record here suggests we should keep our expectations low. And it also suggests the US shouldn't give away a visit from the President without getting something of value.

No I agree, but again Trump has a ego and he loves that he is doing this were he feels all others have failed.

 

[bullitpdq68]

Sure, but when you're the despotic leader of NK, you care about your citizens a heck of a lot more than Joe or Mary in the US

His goal is to remain in power. Trump visiting makes him look powerful to his people, which helps him achieve his main goal.

The fact that he starves his people and keeps them isolated keeps him in control. If we open up the borders and his people get to see the outside world for what it really is might do more damage to him then anything really. The people are so brain washed they don't know any better, he needs us to be an enemy more than we need them.

 

[Neutron Monster]

The fact that he starves his people and keeps them isolated keeps him in control. If we open up the borders and his people get to see the outside world for what it really is might do more damage to him then anything really. The people are so brain washed they don't know any better, he needs us to be an enemy more than we need them.

We don't have much of an ability to open their borders, though, absent ending sanctions on trade. Kim controls the media. He controls travel. He controls communications technology. Etc. Trade with China does more to share information than anything with the US - information/technology flows in over the Yalu.

It's also true that Kim's economic reforms have improved living conditions over the last few years along with some modest, market-based reforms, which has helped the stability of the regime. The sanctions appear to have hurt some on this, because China has actually cracked down.

 

[3Rfan]

We don't have much of an ability to open their borders, though, absent ending sanctions on trade. Kim controls the media. He controls travel. He controls communications technology. Etc. Trade with China does more to share information than anything with the US - information/technology flows in over the Yalu.

It's also true that Kim's economic reforms have improved living conditions over the last few years along with some modest, market-based reforms, which has helped the stability of the regime. The sanctions appear to have hurt some on this, because China has actually cracked down.

I have one thing to mention for ALL of your arguments about who we make nice with. Saudi Arabia, nothing more needs to be said!

 

[bullitpdq68]

I have one thing to mention for ALL of your arguments about who we make nice with. Saudi Arabia, nothing more needs to be said!

If we were to find out that they had discovered the largest oil fields in North Korea I guarantee America would be bending over backwards to end this and normalize relations. You only have to look at Iran to see what happens when you have something the world needs. A lot of atrocities against your people and your nuclear program can be over looked.

 

[wcowherd]

If we were to find out that they had discovered the largest oil fields in North Korea I guarantee America would be bending over backwards to end this and normalize relations. You only have to look at Iran to see what happens when you have something the world needs. A lot of atrocities against your people and your nuclear program can be over looked.

But we didn’t overlook Iran’s nuclear program...

 

[bullitpdq68]

But we didn’t overlook Iran’s nuclear program...

I know it is supposed to be controlled, we will see.

 

[Neutron Monster]

If we were to find out that they had discovered the largest oil fields in North Korea I guarantee America would be bending over backwards to end this and normalize relations. You only have to look at Iran to see what happens when you have something the world needs. A lot of atrocities against your people and your nuclear program can be over looked.

Certainly, it would be different. China would love to get its hands on that oil if it existed.

 

[Neutron Monster]

I have one thing to mention for ALL of your arguments about who we make nice with. Saudi Arabia, nothing more needs to be said!

This probably applies more to Cuba than to NK. Saudis export instability, but they don't have an active nuclear weapons program that we're aware of.

 

[3Rfan]

This probably applies more to Cuba than to NK. Saudis export instability, but they don't have an active nuclear weapons program that we're aware of.

They paid the folks that hijacked and flew planes into those big buildings in NY, the Pentagon and were over powered and crashed into a field in a another one. That doesn't even count how many other terrorists they have funded while being 'our friend.'

 

[Neutron Monster]

They paid the folks that hijacked and flew planes into those big buildings in NY, the Pentagon and were over powered and crashed into a field in a another one. That doesn't even count how many other terrorists they have funded while being 'our friend.'

The US government would say that the people in control of the Saudi government did not do that.

 

[3Rfan]

The US government would say that the people in control of the Saudi government did not do that.

My point exactly! They say it was just some rich Saudi Prince or Princes. It was Saudis and they knew about it.