David Freese
- Thread starter 3Rfan
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Just read an article where he says he doesn't feel worthy of that honor and he's sorry he waited this long to make that decision and apologized to the fans that voted for him.
I was never really sure he deserved it myself. He was a good player and had a great post season one year but a Hofer should have more than that. I don't think I could have made the same decision he did but I guess it shows some character for him to do it. On the other hand it was the fans that voted him in, who else the team's Hall of Fame for?
They seem to be getting a little loose with the red jacket handouts lately. I'm sure Freese being a hometown kid understands the significance more than most. Gotta respect his decision.
But Tad...I seem to agree. Figure there's more to it. Firing Shildt. Holliday parting ways a week or two after he was hired. There might be nothing to any of it. But man, the things the Birds were known for around at least the last 20 or so years seems to be seriously lacking. Marmol is the first manager with Mo's hand (along with his department of protractor wielding dorks) completely up his arse and pulling all the strings. This won't be the most popular take, but look at Mo's tenure. Not the results oriented crap. Look what he was handed. The entire organization. Not just players, but also the player development scouts and coaches. And now look at what it is and the steady decline of on field results.
But Tad...I seem to agree. Figure there's more to it. Firing Shildt. Holliday parting ways a week or two after he was hired. There might be nothing to any of it. But man, the things the Birds were known for around at least the last 20 or so years seems to be seriously lacking. Marmol is the first manager with Mo's hand (along with his department of protractor wielding dorks) completely up his arse and pulling all the strings. This won't be the most popular take, but look at Mo's tenure. Not the results oriented crap. Look what he was handed. The entire organization. Not just players, but also the player development scouts and coaches. And now look at what it is and the steady decline of on field results.
A lot of good people have left or been run off or even died. The decline is pretty obvious. It mostly points back to Mo. But where's the owner in all of it? He's ultimately the one who has allowed the last several years to happen. If we can see the decline across the entire organization surely he can too. Something has to change to turn it around. They're on their third manager and it's still going south. While I'm not all in on Oli I don't really think a fourth is the magic answer, especially if it's another internal guy who keeps Mo's hand warm. It's gong to take something bigger than that.
I could be completely wrong about this, but pretty sure either heard it on TMA or read it in the RFT...but it sticks in my mind...MO and BD3 are super tight, like besties tight. Kids run together, wives are besties...that sort of thing. And other than being the offspring of the owner that built the team back up after the brewery let the early 90s happen, he's pretty much never earned a damned position for what he does. And BDJ has let it all happen. BD3 is the driving force behind all the analytics. MO and his protractor gang are BD3's offshoot.
And I totally agree with your response. Firing Oli isn't going to change anything. They aren't a product of Oli Marmol. They're a product of MO and BD3. If they fired Oli, it's nothing more than a diversionary tactic. I'm afraid, unless BDJ steps in, this is what we're going to get now. A year like this will be the worst (the floor if you will), but the 91 win seasons and getting bounced a game or three into the "playoffs" is probably the ceiling.
What better way to create job security than to buddy up with the bosses. Lol. That does make some sense though. Mo didn't appear to be such an analytical guy in the beginning. But if BD3 was pushing it Mo really had no choice, if he wanted to keep the job. We've seen what's happened to anyone who hasn't been full in.
In a related note, does anyone have any idea why Girsch was given the GM title? We never hear anything from him. I can't tell that anything has changed. It's still always Mo doing the talking. I wonder if he might have been set up to take the first front office fall if things get bad enough. An insulator for Mo maybe.
Pretty sure you hit the nail on the head. Just one more layer of insulation.
There’s a lot wrong with the organization. A lot of things mean more or less depending on how much you care about “just getting in” and if you think “playoffs are important” In the sense of was a season a good one or not.
Personally I don’t care about just getting in. Means very little in 2023. More teams then ever get in. The cardinals organization goal shouldn’t be “getting in” it should be to have a legitimate chance to win once in. I’m very sick of the politics of the FO. They sit on their hands because “we got in” and In making moves now because “we trust our guys” I don’t. And neither do anyone outside of the organization. Why not trade Goldy? Get something. He’s 36 and almost done on his contract.
Next, We as fans have a responsibility to stop over hyping these shitty prospects. I’ve never seen a player as overhyped as Nootbarr. I went to ST Louis last weekend to a game. Saw his shit everywhere. The crowd NOOTs in unison together. He’s not good people! Most of our prospects are not good. We either keep them too long, and they lose all trade value. Or we trade them way too soon. The other growing trend is the awful contracts.
Congrats mo, you won two WS on the back of one of the best players in MLB history in Pujols. (As well as some unlikely heroes) but let’s be real besides being handed Goldy and Nolan there’s not much else that has resulted or could’ve resulted in deep playoff runs and or more WS appearances.
Yes I have extremely high expectations. We are fans of a franchise that’s one of the best franchises in sports. My standards aren’t what are over in KC. Thats my rant. I’ve had growing frustration that’s not just because of this one singular season.
What about Noot makes you say he's not good? He can go get ball and he has a very good arm, he can run and has a little pop. When the "stars" are hitting .250 to .275 and many others less than that he looks pretty good.
He’s a career .240 hitter. His defense is no better or no worse than all but Jordan Walker. He’s average. Great guy, if he married my daughter I’d have a great son in law. But is he a good baseball player? He’s average. He’s nothing special. This is though shining example of us celebrating average play.
Might want to look at the best teams. Our OF doesn’t have a single one that would start over whoever they have. Just saying. Also most are fairly better than a .250 hitter. Lol
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He's pretty good compared to others the Cardinals have that's all he has to be the way things are in STL. right now. He was good enough to play for the World Baseball Classic winning team.
Was he? Or was it difficult to get a roster together with people of decent or origin for a team that happens to be at a level for the WBC. It’s mostly hype. I swear it is. He will be a forgotten STL OF. We have a lot of those the past decade.
And yeah you’ll have to excuse me if I don’t think starting on the STL cards outside of 1B and 3B is not very impressive. Lol That doesn’t mean anything to me.
Nice one. My points were too good to counter. So I must know nothing since I’ve never played. Great intriguing back and fourth bud.
This. A whole freaking lot of this. Where have you gone Jimmy Ballgame, Carlos Beltran, Larry Walker, or Matt Holliday? Hell, I'd settle for a prime Ryan Ludwick at this point. Most of these "prospects" are stiffs. At the very least they're role players on good teams.
I could see Lars for example being a good 4th OF. He’s a good guy as well. But fans (overall) still think even after a few years, he’s an all star caliber player.
Still think Noot is not a good player? He's good as they have in the OF and they do have some good ones but he is more consistent in the field and at the plate than any of them. Strong arm, runs well in the OF and on the bases, will take a walk or work the pitch count and hits to all fields, 2 oppo HR's just recently.
Who said he wasn’t “good”? Nobody has trashed the guy. He’s fine. But that’s about it. He’s nothing special. If Lars Nootbaar is one of your better players (like this team), you’re probably going to suck (like this team). Lars Nootbaar isn’t the reason they suck, btw, before you jump on that.
Agreed. Noot is doing about what I'd expect out of the 3rd best OF on a good team. That's fine. The Cards need that guy too. Unfortunately they also need a first and second best OF. Along with 8-9 pitchers.
And a better number 1 catcher. Contreras is an average to below C. I firmly believe he's a part of the reason the pitchers struggle so much. I don't think he brings out their best. I can't blame all their troubles on him but I think with a better C the pitchers would be a little better. Yes I'm spoiled by Yadi. But WC is a major step down behind the plate and I think it's hurting more than some want to say.
This is trashing? I’d expect many won’t remember Noot doing much to help a winning team 10 yrs from now either. That’s not trashing.
The post before this one is where he dodged him pretty good. I don't know what you guys want from an outfielder that Noot, can't or doesn't do. He can go get the ball with just about anyone, he has a very good arm, he can play any OF position, he hits the ball pretty well and with some power to all fields and he drives pitchers crazy taking pitches, and fouling off pitches til he gets a good one to hit and he can steal a base. Who can the Birds get to put out there that is better?
I like Noot. But I have the same question about another guy. What outfielder do we have who is capable of playing gold glove defense and hitting 30 homeruns? Only one.
Only if he can ever stay healthy and that hasn't happened yet. There is no GG for the IL.
I’m not sure Marmol will be a guy who will ever get the best out of him again. He probably wasn’t in a hurry to return for that man.
I have no problem with the guy, but he’s nothing special. There are a bunch of guys in baseball that give you the overall net return he does.
I don't recall ever saying he is "special". I said he is a good outfielder and does other things well, the other guy said, "he is not a good player", I take exception to that but everybody is entitled the their opinion. If they want someone 'better' than Noot they'll have to trade for him because they don't have one on the roster now.
Yeah, that’s kinda the issue. If that dude is your best OF’er, you got problems. He doesn’t have nearly enough pop to be a good corner guy. He’s not even the best defensive CF on the team. That’s problem with all these guys, none of them can really be anything special. Noots just kinda fine. TON is good when healthy, but that pretty much never. Carlson can’t freaking hit left handed. Walker is about as good defensively as me. Edman and Donovan are essentially utility guys. The team is basically a mess except for 1B and 3B. And hell, the position players are the least of the concerns!
When healthy Edman would be their best SS or best 2B if they would him put in there. I don't know what you expect from an outfielder defensively, Noot can go get the ball with pretty much anybody and has good arm. You can talk about BA or or whatever you want the kid can play in the OF and his hitting is getting better and with more power. It ain't like he's a seasoned veteran, he's still pretty young.
Once again I wanna know what you think a 'real good outfielder' can do that Noot can't or doesn't do. PITCHING is this teams biggest problem along with some injury issues that can happen to any team.
ok well just looking at his baseball reference page gives a good idea. He is a career .248 hitter. Pretty average. He averages 19 HRs over 162 games. Average. Averages 60 RBIs over 162 games. Average. Averages 9 stolen bases. Below average. His walk to K rate is really solid. So he has that going for him. His throwing arm is decent, nothing great.
Literally everything about him screams average OF in todays game.
The best thing he has going for him is the name NOOOOOT which people can yell as he walks to bat.
Literally everything about him screams average OF in todays game.
The best thing he has going for him is the name NOOOOOT which people can yell as he walks to bat.
Eagles said it above. They have 2 consistent positions. Think back to when the Birds actually had good teams. The same 8 guys played the same 8 positions at least 75% of the time. You knew before the lineup was posted who was going to be where. No seriously competitive team changes the lineup and defense every night. You play your best 8 other than a day off every couple weeks or so. Either players haven't proven they're the best at a position or management won't allow them to do so. IMO its the latter. It's a sad state of affairs and it's been going on for several years through three different managers. TLR had enough clout to do things his way. The following mangers haven't been afforded that. It's obvious who's who's calling the shots. And his track record keeps going the wrong direction.
Blah blah blah...You're saying the same thing over and over. Nobody is arguing with you. He's fine. He's decent. He's also nothing special. He doesn't have the pop to be a corner OF'er on a really good team. He's not the best defensive CF'er on this team, Carlson is (by leaps and bounds). But he's fine. If he's your 3rd best OF'er, or your 4th OF'er...cool. But he's not the best OF'er on a really good team. Think about the really good Cardinal teams of the past. And think about who their best OF'ers were. And then think about who their 4th OF'er was. Tell me who Lars Nootbaar most compares to, the best or the 4th. He might very well be the best OF'er on this team, and that's a huge freaking problem.
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