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Cuba

Neutron Monster

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2014
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It's past time for this. The Cold War ended over 20 years ago.

When Obama goes down in history, we're going to have to acknowledge that he didn't have much of a backbone until he was a lame duck President. But he's showing some spine now.

I'm not sure he can get this through Congress, but it's an interesting test of bipartisanship on an issue that doesn't divide neatly on party lines.
 
He had a backbone for about 2 months in 2001, and now.

Not what the people who elected him, wanted, but it will do.

Cuba has been a mistake for a very long time. This is absurd. (from the link)


Dan Snow, a travel agent in Austin, boasts that he has sent many Americans legally and illegally. "Maybe one in 100 have a license," he says.
Snow is the only American who was, as he puts it, "ever convicted for traveling."
In 1990, he spent 45 weekends in federal prison after he was convicted of violating the ban by taking eight fishermen to Cuba in 1987. He says he has since made about 50 trips.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/02/12/usat-cuba.htm
 
I got a chuckle out of Rubio saying this is going to give the government the boost it needs to survive. It's been in power for over 5 decades! It's time to stop pretending the embargo has some magic ability to bring down the Castros.
 
All we did was trade prisoners. As long as Helms-Burton is in place there will not be much done. More bread and circus from the President.
 
Originally posted by PeabodyandSherman:
All we did was trade prisoners. As long as Helms-Burton is in place there will not be much done. More bread and circus from the President.
I don't think Helms-Burton is going away in this Congress but I think it's going to be stretched to the absolute limit.

Establishing diplomatic relations is more meaningful than trading prisoners. This is not Nixon going to China but it is a sea change in terms of messaging.

As long as things remain normal between the US and Cuba, the embargo will be living on borrowed time. It's bad policy already, but it becomes even harder to justify when the world doesn't come to an end just because you acknowledge the existence of the Cuban government.

The embargo exists for the appeasement of a very narrow interest group. It works against the interests of everyone else in America.
 
Obama used all of his political capital on the healthcare law, then never could get any momentum because of the debt ceiling and government funding debates. It is what it is: a wasted presidency.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Not sure the old bread and circus reference makes much sense in this context.
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The expression "bread and circuses" captures a certain cynical political view that the masses can be kept happy with fast food (think Cartman's "Cheesy Poofs" on South Park) and faster entertainment (NASCAR races, NFL games, and the like). In the Roman Empire, it was bread and chariot races and gladiatorial games that filled the belly and distracted the mind, allowing emperors to rule as they saw fit.

There's truth to the view that people can be kept tractable as long as you fill their bellies and give them violent spectacles to fill their free time. Heck, Americans are meekly compliant even when their government invades their privacy and spies upon them. But there's a deeper, more ominous, sense to bread and circuses that is rarely mentioned in American discourse. It was pointed out to me by Amy Scanlon.

In her words:
Basically ancient Rome was a society that completely revolved around war, and where compassion was considered a vice rather than a virtue... [The] Romans saw gladiatorial contests not as a form of decadence but as a cure for decadence. And decadence to the Romans had little to do with sexual behavior or lack of a decent work ethic, but a lack of military-style honor and soldierly virtues. To a Roman compassion was a detestable vice, which was considered both decadent and feminine. Watching people and animals slaughtered brutally [in the arena] was seen as a way to keep the civilian population from this 'weakness' because they didn't see combat...
Scanlon then provocatively asks, "Could our society be sliding towards those Roman attitudes in a bizarre sort of way?"

I often think that America suffers from an empathy gap. We are simply not encouraged to put ourselves in the place of others. For example, how many Americans fancy the idea of a foreign power operating drones in our sovereign skies, launching missiles at gun-toting Americans suspected by this foreign power of being "militants"? Yet we operate drones in places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Yemen, killing suspected militants with total impunity. Even when innocent women and children are killed, our emperors and our media don't encourage us to have compassion for them. We are basically told to think of them as collateral damage, regrettable, perhaps, but otherwise inconsequential.

Certainly, our military in the last two decades has put new stress on American troops as "warriors" and "warfighters," a view more consistent with the hardened professionals of the Roman Empire than with the citizen-soldiers of the Roman Republic. Without thinking too much about it, we've come to see our troops as an imperial guard, ever active on the ramparts of our empire. War, meanwhile, is seen not as a last course of defense but as a first coueven though that "defense" treats the entire globe as a potential killing field.

Scanlon's view of the Roman use of bread and circuses -- as a way to kill compassion to ensure the brutalization of Roman civilians and thus their compliance (or at least their complacency) vis-à-vis Imperial expansion and domestic policing -- is powerful and sobering.

At the same time, the Obama administration is increasingly couching violent military intervention in humanitarian terms. Deploying troops and tipping wars in our favor is done in the name of defeating petty tyrants (e.g. Khadafy in Libya; Is Assad of Syria next?). Think of it as our latest expression of "compassion."

All things considered, perhaps our new national motto should be: When in America, do as the Roman Empire would do. Eat to your fill of food and violence, cheer on the warfighters, and dismiss expressions of doubt or dismay about military interventions and drone killings as "feminine" and "weak."

At least we can applaud ourselves that we no longer torture and kill animals in the arena like the Romans did. See how civilized we've become?



This post was edited on 12/17 6:09 PM by runyouover
 
Thanks and that was an interesting commentary on the bread and circuses comment that I made. I was more basic, i.e. sounds like a big deal, but it is just fluff that will keep 'em occupied for a while. A popular theme in politics. The Cuba thing will take much longer than many people realize. Personally, I'd like for it to move forward, but that does not look like it will happen based on the law that is in place or a Congress that appears to want to move forward. I'd like to think I am wrong about that, but I am probably right. And if you really want to read something interesting try this: http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/studio/multimedia/20141204/index.html#section-31185


This post was edited on 12/17 11:33 PM by PeabodyandSherman
 
While I understand that the sanctions weren't doing what we wanted them to do as far as change, they were doing what was intended as far as punishment. If sanctions are a bad idea then we shouldn't be putting them on Iran or others.
I also have no real problem with lifting the sanctions but there should be more in it for us. This simply looks like we are saying we were wrong to impose them or we give in. Either case is bad policy.
 
I think there are two big differences in Cuba vs Iran:

1. We are basically alone on Cuba. Iran is more of a global effort due to its nuclear program.

2. We have a clear goal of the sanctions and a clear path to how the sanctions can be lifted for everyone's gain.
 
Can't say I'm totally against new Cuban relations, overall I believe Obama got it right but...

Human Right Issues associated with Cuba should not be forgiven.
 
Obama's Drone Strikes have killed far more children than Gitmo.
Be proud of your president...
 
That was funny 3r!

Just kidding people
Have a nice Xmas...

You too Veer, even though you've never been to Texas.
 
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