I really like the facilities without a track. Allows the seating to be much closer to the field.
Which conference in Missouri has the best facilities ?
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But yet, that same year Webb beat CJ at Webb by only 7 in the playoffs, and CJ had the lead till the last 2 minutes. Then Webb destroyed everyone else in the class 4 playoffs till they lost to Kearney in the championship game. Lamar was extraordinary that year and was extremely motivated on their home field that night. That Lamar win does not show the COC is weak ... because it's not. It just shows how extraordinary that Lamar team was.
Webb also had one of their worst seasons that year 4 losses . Last time they did that was 15 years ago. The days of them just thrashing everyone in conference are over ...that's not because they have stepped back ...they get more and more kids every year and they will continue to be good for the foreseeable future.....the reason is the rest of the conference is much improved . Cj today is night and day where they were even 4 years ago . Numbers are way up and same can be said for most COC teams
Maybe I am a homer but I disagree (mostly). I will give you that there are more top level teams in KC. And there should be because there are larger pools of talent and resources - plus they all play and build off each other. It's definitely more tough up there especially in the larger classes and we know that. After Joplin fought through the OC last year no one was talking about a state title. We know KC football is better. But to claim that Joplin wasn't good last year is crazy talk.
I also think it's crazy talk to suggest that CJ, Carthage, Nixa, Ozark aren't good just because they haven't racked up a ton of state titles or been able to capture the Webb City unicorn.
Personally I think the COC is at least partly responsible for WC getting to where they are now. They were good in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s, but moving into the COC exposed them routinely to larger schools and I believe that helps them tremendously come playoff time when they start playing smaller schools than what they are used to. I would be curious to see other C4 teams that play an almost exclusively C5 or larger schedule. West Plains comes to mind.
Anyways, no one would claim that the COC is the best conference in the state, just like I don't think anyone would claim that CJ or Carthage is the best team in SWMO. But I do think the COC is a great conference with some great quality teams, some teams with history, some teams building and working on the future and a few that are just trying to find their way. All things considered I think it's a fun conference to follow and like the original point of the thread, some venues that are fun to visit.
I also think it's crazy talk to suggest that CJ, Carthage, Nixa, Ozark aren't good just because they haven't racked up a ton of state titles or been able to capture the Webb City unicorn.
Personally I think the COC is at least partly responsible for WC getting to where they are now. They were good in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s, but moving into the COC exposed them routinely to larger schools and I believe that helps them tremendously come playoff time when they start playing smaller schools than what they are used to. I would be curious to see other C4 teams that play an almost exclusively C5 or larger schedule. West Plains comes to mind.
Anyways, no one would claim that the COC is the best conference in the state, just like I don't think anyone would claim that CJ or Carthage is the best team in SWMO. But I do think the COC is a great conference with some great quality teams, some teams with history, some teams building and working on the future and a few that are just trying to find their way. All things considered I think it's a fun conference to follow and like the original point of the thread, some venues that are fun to visit.
Absolutely. COC teams run the guantlet much like the(miaa which is the sec of d2 football) and the sec . These teams beat the crap out of each other. Branson has been down recently but is tradition rich . Ozark is tradition rich. Nixa has produced more d1 talent then any other COC team. Basically all COC teams are trending up . Joplin was twords the top in the Ozark conference I think they may be the 4th best team in the COC but we shall see
I believe they won the league last year and a nice group of underclassman from that team returning.
Joplin also looked good at the Blue Springs South team camp earlier in June. They competed well against the schools that were there, probably one of the top two teams on the day I was there. I think the schools that participated were Blue Springs South, Ray-Pec, Mill Valley, Fort Osage, and Eureka if I'm not mistaken.
I am not claiming that the COC is terrible just average and lucky. In class 5 coming out of the COC you can almost assuredly make it to the semis just by beating your conference opponents and maybe an OC school, just because of how many class 5 schools are in this area. Please show me the history of the COC schools, who besides Webb has any state Champion banners hanging from the rafters from the COC? and that goes all the way back to when alot of those schools were class 2 3 & 4 I don't think anybody has thought of the COC as a football conference. I will give you that I do think they are trying to get better you can tell by the money they have put in their football stadiums, but until you can seriously mention a COC class 5 school as being a serious state title contender they are not there yet. I don't think I have ever heard anybody say the road to the Class 5 state title goes thru the COC.
You can just look at how CJ, Carthage and Webb have done since joining the COC and realize that the other schools don't play the same brand of football as those in the SW corner do.
How much D-1 talent has Nixa had walking their halls and yet they still have never beaten Webb....makes you go hmmmm.
Now basketball that is a whole other story COC & OC is a beast around here. But until those towns quit beating their chest and thinking that making a "deep" run playoffs makes you great in football they will never make it to the top.
I guess your idea of Tradition rich and mine are different. I consider Webb to have Tradition. Lamar has tradition.
Beating your chest because you produced more D-1 talent than anybody else in the area, or made a deep run in the playoffs by beating local schools, is not tradition rich to me. It is something to build on, but until you can hang a few banners in your rafters that say you were the best in your class....You are just
Just shows that the Big 8 champ who was a class 2 school was probable better than most of the COC schools who are class 5. I don't think that is helping your argument.
I think one could make the same argument for the Big 8. One dominate team at the top and bunch class 3 teams who make deep runs. Congrats to your Cubs for getting over the hump a few years ago. I don't think you would want anyone to call them lucky would you? I mean they have a nice tradition but they were not world beater previous to that or since. Seneca and Mt Vernon, were they lucky?
As for the level of play in the COC it is much better than it was at the time of the merger. Not everyone of them are great by any means but as a whole the level of football is much better than it used to be.
BOOM SHAKALAKA ...
Ohhhh yeahhhhhh....This post has become the unofficial kickoff to the 2018 MoSports football season!!!!!
Ohhhh yeahhhhhh....This post has become the unofficial kickoff to the 2018 MoSports football season!!!!!
Is the COC better or is it because Webb, Carthage and CJ have been added and that just makes it look better on paper??? If the SWC was still together and you added CJ and Joplin who would you consider better? The SWC or the COC?
The Big 8 Gyms are littered with State banners from several schools not just one like the COC. Cassville, Monett, Lamar, Aurora, Seneca, & Mt Vernon have all hosted the state championship hardware at some point and it runs thru several decades. Tradition runs deep in the Big 8 for football we don't hang our hat on deep runs we want that hardware that says you are the best, not 3rd or 4th runner up. You think Webb would be considered great if all those state titles were 2nd place finishes or deep runs instead...just would not have the same meaning would it. Hey we made it to the semis last year!!!
I will be honest I don't consider my beloved Cubs tradition rich, we have tradition just not constantly, and before long we will probable be class 4 and will have to step it up to compete on that level to prove we can hang. But we have 3 state titles which is 3 more than the original COC schools have. And we have 6 other schools with State championships in the conference which proves we are just not a one hit wonder for a conference.
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Hard to argue with many of those points. But as far as your first sentence goes, while they do not have championships to prove it, I have stood on COC sidelines for 8 years and the I can guarantee the level of football is much better than it was at the merger.
FWIW I think you are putting too much emphasis on championships. The Big 8 has great tradition but there is a lot of teams in that league that have been very average for the most part but you exalt them because they have a championship banner that is decades old and sporadically make deep playoff runs. I dont want to tear the Big 8 down because I actually love they way they football and love the passion in most communities. Southwest Missouri as a whole has some good football being played in it.
Overall yes I think Webb is playing better opponents being in the COC, I think CJ will do better along with Carthage, and somehow we forgot Neosho.
All I am saying is the COC by virtue of adding teams added to the conference power ranking. If I was Webb and looking for a conference to join it would be the COC large it is the only option. I am sure it is better than what and who they played in the past and much better than looking for schools outside of conference opponents to play.
As for championships I might be, but that is how I believe you measure success of a conference over the years. Does a conference have teams that can not only make deep runs but compete year in and year out for that championship. The Big 8 has proven over decades that "towns" not just one certain town can rise up and challenge the best and win. The conference race for the most part is always open year in and year out.
I mean again would Webb be Webb if they had never won a title and could only hang their hat on deep runs, you and I both know the truth. I don't think Webb would have been looking for non conference opponents.
I hear it all the time from your fans, on this very board, before you play a conference foe, it will be close but in the end we will pull away by 2-4 TD's.... and well they are usually right more times then not. So not even your fans show a lot of respect for your conference opponents. If the COC was a really tuff conference of Class 5 schools, Webb and CJ would be fighting to just finish in the top 1/4 of the conference, but instead most of those class 5 schools are pointing to class 4 schools to the tradition to build on and gauging their success on weather they can beat them or not....
I do think from Class 1-4 we have some really good football. I think Class 5 we are at times top 10, but if you took our best class 5 school and took them up to KC to play the best 10 in that area I don't know if they could finish above .500? Do you? Class 6 right now we don't have a school that could win, I keep hoping Joplin can turn the corner we shall see.
It kind of seems like you have a burr under your saddle regarding the COC, specifically the original members but I'm not sure why. Winning a state title at any point in time seems like an odd way to value a program's worth in the present day. But to each his own. If you are just trying to make the point that KC is where it's at in class 5/6 then I think we've already agreed on that point.
In my opinion the class 3 landscape is way different than class 5. You mentioned the Big 8 being wide open (after Lamar) and I think that's true and partly because class 3 in general is wide open more so than other classes that tend to be very top heavy, especially the larger ones. We had a thread about this last year.
In my opinion the class 3 landscape is way different than class 5. You mentioned the Big 8 being wide open (after Lamar) and I think that's true and partly because class 3 in general is wide open more so than other classes that tend to be very top heavy, especially the larger ones. We had a thread about this last year.
So you can you answer my question, do you believe a class 5 school from the COC would fair better than .500 against the top 10 Class 5 schools from the north?
And how do you measure conference power rankings? What makes a conference solid in your words top to bottom..
I don’t think anyone is arguing the class 5 teams in the COC are the best in the state. They have made strides and are getting better. You put a group of good (not great) class five teams with a great class 4 and that makes for a good conference.
You know, I probably would not had a problem with anything you have said if you would just have left the lucky part out.
You know, I probably would not had a problem with anything you have said if you would just have left the lucky part out.
Now does that feel that bad to say?
I thought about the lucky part but really it is true in football. Luck is just part of the game a lucky bounce on a fumble can certainly change the outcome of a tight game. So how many district championship banners you can hang in your Gym can be a product of hard work, or pure luck of just being in an area that has weak teams in a district. Take class 4 for example anybody in SWmo is pretty unlucky in class 4 because the state title goes thru Webb end of story but I also think we have some of the best Class 4 teams in this area but they just never make that far because well they happen to have to play Webb early that is unlucky. So to be able to hang a district banner you have to beat Webb, and even if you have a great team and get beat by Webb by 1 point the team that Webb beats by 35 in the State title game is considered 2nd best because they were lucky to go thru a weak bracket and make it that far. Even your fans talk about wanting to seed teams so the Championship game is not so lopsided at times. So why is it so hard for you to believe that your own conference class 5 schools "could" just be lucky when making it so far currently?
I have said multiple times that moving to class 5 has been great for Carthage because it's easier to advance through a district that doesn't include what may be the best program in the entire state. People around here from Webb City are generally eager to point that out to Carthage fans so the point is not lost I assure you. I think it's been good for Carthage for the championship to go through a variety of schools, the Staley, Battle, and Chaminades, rather than one next-door neighbor Webb City. Even if the finish line is harder.
Don't misunderstand the COC as an attempt to create a power football conference. It's a matter of convenient geography and scheduling between similar schools that compete with each other relatively well across many sports. Each school tends to have sports where they shine. For a few it's football. For some it's basketball, or baseball. Neosho is a power in wrestling and I think Willard is as well. Carthage track team won a state championship this year.
So was Monett lucky that John Burroughs recruiting has been down a little lately? Or that Marysville slipped a notch from their usual self? Is the class 3 programs in the Big 8 lucky that Marysville is in a different quadrant and its easier to make a run to the semis/ championship game without going through the Spoofhounds? Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Heck is Marysville lucky they dont have to play in the Big 8 and get beat up during the regular season?
Monett proved on the field that they were the best team in Class 3 that day end of story, so not sure what your point is bringing up John Burroughs who has one state title over the last several years, Seneca knocked them off on their march to the title game a few years ago?
I would have to say that due to the playoff setup that Mt Vernon had an easier path to the championship game last year than Maryville it happens since we don't seed teams. But again those schools have also proved they can win it all. I have seen Webb get tested more in the playoffs than the championship game I am sure you have too.
But the Big 8 doesn't have to prove nothing, we had multi class state titles just as recently as 2016. Over the years we have had multi class schools competing in the title games. But this is not about the Big 8 I am not on here saying it is a premier conference beating my chest that we are the bad ass class 3 football conference. This is about you trying to prove to me that the COC is fielding teams in class 5 that are good enough to win it all yearly and no matter how you try to spin it that just is not true. At the end of the day it is just an average conference with some average class 5 schools and one really really good class 4 school that dominates it.
Again who out of the Class 5 schools in the COC do you see making in the championship game this year in class 5?
Im not sure were in the world I ever said that the class 5 in the COC were championship contenders year in and year out. I beg you to re-read what I have said regarding the class 5 teams in the conference. The statement was made by another poster that Nixa and Carthage had been very successful the last handful of years by reaching the semi finals and finals. You decided to poo-poo those accomplishment and called them lucky. I was simply defending those accomplishments. You stated it was due to geography that they were able to advance. I was simply stating that if the Big 8 was located elsewhere they may be in a similar situation. My main reason for even posting anything on here was to simply say that from my observations over the last 9 years, the class 5 teams play much better than they did at the merger. For the record I do not believe this the the best football conference in the state, I said that 6 post ago! I do believe each year they produce an above average team or two. Carthage will be salty this year. Can they win it all, I have no idea?
All this is funny. The tradition rich Big 8 just added a bunch of programs with very little history and a few lucky seasons. Seems like both conferences are in the same boat now.
Im done with this conversation because I feel like a slime-ball saying negative things about the Big 8 programs because they have accomplished a ton over the years and Im not particularly comfortable defending Carthage and Nixa either.
Sorry that is what you made it sound like...
I will say this as my last shoot. We lost a coach to the COC I asked the Admin and school board how did you let this happen. This is what I was told they were prepared to offer more money than the other school was paying, But it would not have mattered, because the path to a winning season and a district title was easier in the COC large class 5 than the current situation.
I have also heard that from a few other coaches and administration and one was from Webb, that you can go coach COC large class 5 and with an average team win a district title and possible advance one more round.
Interesting reading. I don't want to put down the Big 8, but there are several parallels between the Big 8 and COC. Replace Webb with Lamar in the above points about the COC, and I think a lot of the same points can be made about the Big 8. Again, I think the Big 8 is a very good conference., but so is the COC. Both leagues are made better by a powerhouse in the smaller class that is raising the quality of football in both leagues.
I was scratching my head through this whole thread trying to figure out why a big 8 fan would have an axe to grind against the COC and I think I might get it now.
I might feel the same way especially if it was a coach I felt was particularly valuable. Unfortunately unless a coach has personal ties to the smaller school - a larger division school is going to win the recruiting battle nearly every time. A larger community with more to offer, more resources, bigger talent pool, facilities, and a conference on a little bit bigger stage. The perception of a potentially easier playoff pathway is just icing on the cake in that deal, not the cake itself. And the playoff pathway changes every year. Until Webb City moves up to C5 - it's absolutely going to be more up for grabs and I like it that way.
If it makes people feel better about themselves to minimize other teams accomplishments, I guess so be it. Like I said, many Webb fans around here are good at that. That is just the kind of the culture in which we find ourselves these days.
Realistically I don't think C5 in this part of the state is (relatively speaking) easier or harder than C3. They have districts that more or less feature rematches from the regular season. They just strike me as very similar. Unlike C4, neither are dominated by a single team that no one has beat in a quarter century.
