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Universal Basic Income

Veerman_12

Veerman_12

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2019
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Congress (and the Dems) seem dead set on implementing some form of UBI, right now claiming it's for covid relief.

The thing is once huge government programs like this get off the ground it's virtually impossible to stop them (case in point Social Security).

If we're going to have our taxes jacked way up to pay for UBI I propose there should be some type of service attached to receiving those benefits.

Doesn't have to be military service, but there is absolutely no reason every man and woman over 18 in this country should get $1200 - $2000 a month for nothing.

Heck if the government was so interested in "giving" us money they should just eliminate income taxes and let us keep the money we earn.
 
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bullitpdq68 said:
You can never roll back a hand out.
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Correct.

If they're going to do it anyway, don't make it a handout.

Civil or military service could help offset the handout part of it.

2 years of service = $500/month UBI

3 years of service = $750/month UBI

4 years of service = $1000/ month UBI

To cap out at $2000/month for 8 years of civil/military service.

I'm even ok starting this service at 16 (legal right to work age) in a civil or ROTC type program.
 
Veerman_12 said:
Correct.

If they're going to do it anyway, don't make it a handout.

Civil or military service could help offset the handout part of it.

2 years of service = $500/month UBI

3 years of service = $750/month UBI

4 years of service = $1000/ month UBI

To cap out at $2000/month for 8 years of civil/military service.

I'm even ok starting this service at 16 (legal right to work age) in a civil or ROTC type program.
Click to expand...

Greece tried this and their economy crashed. I’m all for helping the .5 to 1% of people that can’t work or really need assistance but if you incentivize not working then people won’t work. If my neighbor just decides not to work they are not entitled to part of my tax dollars if I do. It is not government money. It is taxpayer money.
 
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Cheetah King said:
Greece tried this and their economy crashed. I’m all for helping the .5 to 1% of people that can’t work or really need assistance but if you incentivize not working then people won’t work. If my neighbor just decides not to work they are not entitled to part of my tax dollars if I do.
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I totally agree it's a bad idea and I wish we would eliminate or privatize most if not all federal handouts (welfare, SS, etc), but the fact is, the Dems have latched on to the UBI train. It's not going anywhere.

I'm also forward thinking enough to know this will get worse in the coming years. Stacy Abrams, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Jeff Mackler will be gunning for the White House for the next 40+ years. One of them may eventually get it especially if they succeed in marginalizing the flyover states by eliminating the Electoral College.

UBI is an inevitability at this point. Might as well make it tolerable and get something of societal benefit out of it.
 
Veerman_12 said:
I totally agree it's a bad idea and I wish we would eliminate or privatize most if not all federal handouts (welfare, SS, etc), but the fact is, the Dems have latched on to the UBI train. It's not going anywhere.

I'm also forward thinking enough to know this will get worse in the coming years. Stacy Abrams, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Jeff Mackler will be gunning for the White House for the next 40+ years. One of them may eventually get it especially if they succeed in marginalizing the flyover states by eliminating the Electoral College.

UBI is an inevitability at this point. Might as well make it tolerable and get something of societal benefit out of it.
Click to expand...

it might be inevitable at some point but if that point is 60 years from now instead of 2-4 years from now then it is worth the fight. UBI is like a hungry alligator eating his own tail. An economy not based on productivity can’t survive.
 
Veerman_12 said:
I totally agree it's a bad idea and I wish we would eliminate or privatize most if not all federal handouts (welfare, SS, etc), but the fact is, the Dems have latched on to the UBI train. It's not going anywhere.

I'm also forward thinking enough to know this will get worse in the coming years. Stacy Abrams, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Jeff Mackler will be gunning for the White House for the next 40+ years. One of them may eventually get it especially if they succeed in marginalizing the flyover states by eliminating the Electoral College.

UBI is an inevitability at this point. Might as well make it tolerable and get something of societal benefit out of it.
Click to expand...


Now while I agree with you in part on some of these things. Social Security I do have issues with, now I would not mind having options. I think they should be able to give you the option to opt out at a certain age, but sorry I have paid in for over 36 years. So if they are going to do away with SS they need to write me a check and I would be fine with that. But otherwise when I retire I paid in I should get out. Same with all the other things I have paid into over the years. These are things I have paid into you want to get rid of it pay me off and I will sign something saying I don't need it. But I want interest too!!
 
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Cheetah King said:
it might be inevitable at some point but if that point is 60 years from now instead of 2-4 years from now then it is worth the fight. UBI is like a hungry alligator eating his own tail. An economy not based on productivity can’t survive.
Click to expand...

It won't be 60 years. It'll be here within the next decade. Count on it.

The beauty (if you want to look on the bright side) is there will still be productivity. The economy may likely shift, but how many people really just want to live on $2000 a month (likely with taxes taken out)? It will be a supplement for those who want it, and potentially a huge help for those who don't.

Could reduce crime by pulling those with limited means out of poverty, could cause mass inflation, some people will remain poor because they just will. I get a lot of the arguments for and against. My thing is, it's going to happen, might as well influence it so it's not just "money for existing".

Also, eliminate social security and welfare if you're going to implement UBI. No need to have three redundant handouts.
 
bullitpdq68 said:
Now while I agree with you in part on some of these things. Social Security I do have issues with, now I would not mind having options. I think they should be able to give you the option to opt out at a certain age, but sorry I have paid in for over 36 years. So if they are going to do away with SS they need to write me a check and I would be fine with that. But otherwise when I retire I paid in I should get out. Same with all the other things I have paid into over the years. These are things I have paid into you want to get rid of it pay me off and I will sign something saying I don't need it. But I want interest too!!
Click to expand...

I'd be fine with grandfathering in the people currently on SS, just don't allow anyone else on. Or just double the UBI for former SS recipients. Could you make it on 4k a month?
 
Veerman_12 said:
StableMoscowLazerPigDuck would tell you medicare for all. Which makes less sense than UBI to be honest.
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I would like to see the insurance companies having less control of the cost, To many people trying to make a profit off our health care cost which just actually drives up the cost.
I would like to see us controlling cost by insurance companies being less involved in everyday health care cost and more of a catastrophic coverage. You should be able to see a doctor for around $100 or way less depending on what you see them for. I mean when I go they see me for less than 5 minutes to tell me I have what I already knew I had but need them to write the prescription. And in the end total cost with my copay of $50
 
bullitpdq68 said:
I would like to see the insurance companies having less control of the cost, To many people trying to make a profit off our health care cost which just actually drives up the cost.
I would like to see us controlling cost by insurance companies being less involved in everyday health care cost and more of a catastrophic coverage. You should be able to see a doctor for around $100 or way less depending on what you see them for. I mean when I go they see me for less than 5 minutes to tell me I have what I already knew I had but need them to write the prescription. And in the end total cost with my copay of $50
Click to expand...

I agree.
 
Veerman_12 said:
I'd be fine with grandfathering in the people currently on SS, just don't allow anyone else on. Or just double the UBI for former SS recipients. Could you make it on 4k a month?
Click to expand...
If you don't have anyone paying into SS the people drawing it now won't get it for very long. What you pay inis only a part of the pension plan, employers have to pay some of that too. When you're working YOU pay for those that are already retired then the folks behind you do the same. If all current RR workers stopped paying into the system my checks wouldn't last long. I paid for others for over 30 years, I want those behind me to keep doing the same.
 
3Rfan said:
If you don't have anyone paying into SS the people drawing it now won't get it for very long. What you pay inis only a part of the pension plan, employers have to pay some of that too. When you're working YOU pay for those that are already retired then the folks behind you do the same. If all current RR workers stopped paying into the system my checks wouldn't last long. I paid for others for over 30 years, I want those behind me to keep doing the same.
Click to expand...

Why do you only read half the statement in an effort to argue?

I also said how about just double the UBI for people currently on SS?

Do you currently make more than $4000 a month in SS? If not, you're complaining about a net gain in your monthly payment just for the sake of being pedantic.
 
Veerman_12 said:
It won't be 60 years. It'll be here within the next decade. Count on it.

The beauty (if you want to look on the bright side) is there will still be productivity. The economy may likely shift, but how many people really just want to live on $2000 a month (likely with taxes taken out)? It will be a supplement for those who want it, and potentially a huge help for those who don't.

Could reduce crime by pulling those with limited means out of poverty, could cause mass inflation, some people will remain poor because they just will. I get a lot of the arguments for and against. My thing is, it's going to happen, might as well influence it so it's not just "money for existing".

Also, eliminate social security and welfare if you're going to implement UBI. No need to have three redundant handouts.
Click to expand...

I think you are wrong about it reducing crime.....those on assistance already augment their income with crime the 2,000 a month won't stop anything of that nature.
 
3Rfan said:
If you don't have anyone paying into SS the people drawing it now won't get it for very long. What you pay inis only a part of the pension plan, employers have to pay some of that too. When you're working YOU pay for those that are already retired then the folks behind you do the same. If all current RR workers stopped paying into the system my checks wouldn't last long. I paid for others for over 30 years, I want those behind me to keep doing the same.
Click to expand...

That's the issue it's a horrible legal ponzi scheme and So in SS.....everyone should pay into a individual account and only draw out from their account....Never should the money be pooled and the new person help pay for the previous person.

But I get your point you did pay in to others and so now you deserve that in kind but it should never have been set up that way. Nothing should....a person only deserves what they have put in. I know cost increase blah blah blah...then the wise choose to put in more when they are working in prep for that. Those who don't will suffer.
 
IF a UBI comes about this country will be in a economic collapse within 5-10 years....and probably in a massive social upheaval soon after. Once you take away the drive for success and the basic need to support yourself with your own work ethic then society will devolve.

I get it the powers that be, love the idea of having the masses dependent upon their handouts.
 
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MGHS said:
I think you are wrong about it reducing crime.....those on assistance already augment their income with crime the 2,000 a month won't stop anything of that nature.
Click to expand...

Maybe maybe not. If human needs are met there is no need to steal. Not that it won't happen, just may reduce the rate.
 
Veerman_12 said:
Why do you only read half the statement in an effort to argue?

I also said how about just double the UBI for people currently on SS?

Do you currently make more than $4000 a month in SS? If not, you're complaining about a net gain in your monthly payment just for the sake of being pedantic.
Click to expand...
Wake up boy! I just posted that I draw RR retirement, I will never draw dime from SS. I paid into RR retirement for over 30 years and SS for about 2 years when I was making less than $2 an hour. I think the total I paid in is about $550. Where the heck was I complaining about about a net gain in my monthly payment? :confused:
 
3Rfan said:
Wake up boy! I just posted that I draw RR retirement, I will never draw dime from SS. I paid into RR retirement for over 30 years and SS for about 2 years when I was making less than $2 an hour. I think the total I paid in is about $550. Where the heck was I complaining about about a net gain in my monthly payment? :confused:
Click to expand...

So you're arguing just to argue. Exactly what I thought.
 
Veerman_12 said:
So you're arguing just to argue. Exactly what I thought.
Click to expand...
I didn't argue a dang thang about my monthly income. I was merely pointing out that you can't just have everyone that pays into SS suddenly stop if you think the folks that have paid into to all their lives to be able keep drawing it in retirement.
 
3Rfan said:
I didn't argue a dang thang about my monthly income. I was merely pointing out that you can't just have everyone that pays into SS suddenly stop if you think the folks that have paid into to all their lives to be able keep drawing it in retirement.
Click to expand...

Did I or did I not already cover that?

Spoiler, I did already cover that. So why are you continuing to argue a moot point? Oh right, because you dislike me and want to try to argue with me over anything.

If I said the sky was blue today you'd come back with "No it rained this morning" as if that negates the fact that it was a beautiful afternoon/evening. You do that crap all the time.

I covered it, it's over.
 
Veerman_12 said:
Did I or did I not already cover that?

Spoiler, I did already cover that. So why are you continuing to argue a moot point? Oh right, because you dislike me and want to try to argue with me over anything.

If I said the sky was blue today you'd come back with "No it rained this morning" as if that negates the fact that it was a beautiful afternoon/evening. You do that crap all the time.

I covered it, it's over.
Click to expand...
I have no idea what you're talking about and I'm pretty sure you don't either. I don't dislike you, I don't even know you. I disagree with your thinking on many subjects and you disagree with me. I didn't call you young punk until you started with the old man crap over the space travel issue. Again, I did NOT argue about anything about my income related to SS except that I had already said I do NOT draw SS. Maybe YOU should read a little better.
 
3Rfan said:
I have no idea what you're talking about and I'm pretty sure you don't either. I don't dislike you, I don't even know you. I disagree with your thinking on many subjects and you disagree with me. I didn't call you young punk until you started with the old man crap over the space travel issue. Again, I did NOT argue about anything about my income related to SS except that I had already said I do NOT draw SS. Maybe YOU should read a little better.
Click to expand...

The only thing I've said even remotely regarding your age is that you're near the end of your life and foresight doesn't matter as much to you anymore. You don't care about the space program because it doesn't/won't impact you that much.

I wasn't disrespectful, never called you "old man" or any derivative thereof.

You consistently argue about stuff and disagree just to disagree and then act clueless when you get called on it. That's your game, everyone knows it.
 
Veerman_12 said:
The only thing I've said even remotely regarding your age is that you're near the end of your life and foresight doesn't matter as much to you anymore. You don't care about the space program because it doesn't/won't impact you that much.

I wasn't disrespectful, never called you "old man" or any derivative thereof.

You consistently argue about stuff and disagree just to disagree and then act clueless when you get called on it. That's your game, everyone knows it.
Click to expand...
You're a low life punk that treats 3R with nothing but disrespect on EVERY post. I have never seen anyone on this forum treated as as bad as you treat him. You ignore people for doing the same thing you do nearly every post. The only reason I hate to be on your ignore is that I can't remind you what a coward your are. I hope some one copies and pastes this in one of their post so you have to see it. Scum.
 
Veerman_12 said:
The only thing I've said even remotely regarding your age is that you're near the end of your life and foresight doesn't matter as much to you anymore. You don't care about the space program because it doesn't/won't impact you that much.

I wasn't disrespectful, never called you "old man" or any derivative thereof.

You consistently argue about stuff and disagree just to disagree and then act clueless when you get called on it. That's your game, everyone knows it.
Click to expand...
I'm 66 and you aid I was near the end of my life. I could most likely work you in the ground today!
Since we won the 'race to the moon' whatever that was worth But it was cool the i was kid. I have pretty always much thought the space program was a waste of money that could be much better used here on earth. We need roads, bridges and all other infrastructure rebuilt and it's been a problem for a LONG time. We could do a LOT of that kind of work for the price one space shot, much less going to the moon again and to Mars. :(
 
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3Rfan said:
I'm 66 and you aid I was near the end of my life. I could most likely work you in the ground today!
Since we won the 'race to the moon' whatever that was worth But it was cool the i was kid. I have pretty always much thought the space program was a waste of money that could be much better used here on earth. We need roads, bridges and all other infrastructure rebuilt and it's been a problem for a LONG time. We could do a LOT of that kind of work for the price one space shot, much less going to the moon again and to Mars. :(
Click to expand...

News flash. Life expectancy for an American male is 76.1 years.

You ARE at the end of your life. Statistically you have a decade left.

What did I say that was untrue?
 
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3Rfan said:
I'm 66 and you aid I was near the end of my life. I could most likely work you in the ground today!
Since we won the 'race to the moon' whatever that was worth But it was cool the i was kid. I have pretty always much thought the space program was a waste of money that could be much better used here on earth. We need roads, bridges and all other infrastructure rebuilt and it's been a problem for a LONG time. We could do a LOT of that kind of work for the price one space shot, much less going to the moon again and to Mars. :(
Click to expand...

We can't stop moving forward as country and a space program is a Must. Being at the cutting edge of space travel could lead to unknown discovery's and technologies ,all things that could improve our life on earth. To just opt out to save a few bucks is short sighted.

I get what you are saying but the issue with our infrastructure is waste and Grift. I'd rather see a robust space program than some failed again infrastructure program. If they would ever get it right I might be on board with it, but they never will.
 
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MGHS said:
We can't stop moving forward as country and a space program is a Must. Being at the cutting edge of space travel could lead to unknown discovery's and technologies ,all things that could improve our life on earth. To just opt out to save a few bucks is short sighted.

I get what you are saying but the issue with our infrastructure is waste and Grift. I'd rather see a robust space program than some failed again infrastructure program. If they would ever get it right I might be on board with it, but they never will.
Click to expand...
We'll see what you think about that when it's the sewer and water system or bridges in your area that collapse. We're not all gonna jump aboard a space ship to save us when that happens.
 
3Rfan said:
We'll see what you think about that when it's the sewer and water system or bridges in your area that collapse. We're not all gonna jump aboard a space ship to save us when that happens.
Click to expand...

You are so incredibly short sighted.
 
3Rfan said:
Off we don't fix the stuff that needs fixin NOW space ain't gonna save us.
Click to expand...

Yeah we should do that too.

Doesn't mean space is unnecessary or something to put on the back burner.
 
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Veerman_12 said:
Yeah we should do that too.

Doesn't mean space is unnecessary or something to put on the back burner.
Click to expand...
Where do we get all this money? We were broke long before the pandemic. If we're going to deficit spend it should NOT be on space travel, it should be used to fix things we can actually use.
 
3Rfan said:
Where do we get all this money? We were broke long before the pandemic. If we're going to deficit spend it should NOT be on space travel, it should be used to fix things we can actually use.
Click to expand...

Do you use a phone? The internet? Mobile banking?

Not having space assets puts all those things at risk. If we don't invest we are allowing China, Russia, India, and Saudi Arabia to take control in space. That's a dangerous game to play.

I'm done trying to convince you. You're wrong, you have no foresight. Failure to act now will leave your grandchildren at the will of foreign governments who have invested in space exploration and defense.
 
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