Ukraine: The Plot Thickens

[kaskaskiakid]

MOSCOW/WASHINGTON, Feb 22 (Reuters) - The United States is concerned by greater alignment between China and Russia, the U.S. State Department said on Wednesday after Russian President Vladimir Putin hailed "new frontiers" in ties with Beijing and signalled China's Xi Jinping would visit his country.

Word of Xi's visit comes as Washington has said China is considering providing weapons for Russia's war in Ukraine, a move that would threaten to escalate the conflict into a confrontation between Russia and China on the one side and Ukraine and the U.S.-led NATO military alliance on the other.

Biden issued a warning to China yesterday about providing weapons to Ukraine.

I don't like where this is going.

 

[Toots_mcgee]

China is going to “force” us to waste even more resources on war and weaken us further as a nation.

 

[MGHS]

MOSCOW/WASHINGTON, Feb 22 (Reuters) - The United States is concerned by greater alignment between China and Russia, the U.S. State Department said on Wednesday after Russian President Vladimir Putin hailed "new frontiers" in ties with Beijing and signalled China's Xi Jinping would visit his country.

Word of Xi's visit comes as Washington has said China is considering providing weapons for Russia's war in Ukraine, a move that would threaten to escalate the conflict into a confrontation between Russia and China on the one side and Ukraine and the U.S.-led NATO military alliance on the other.

Biden issued a warning to China yesterday about providing weapons to Ukraine.

I don't like where this is going.

Biden's warning was laughable.... China and Russia have aligned and will now destroy America with Economic superiority.... China was on the verge of Economic collapse in the next decade from within according to most reports.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/10-years-left-famed-geopolitical-160000503.html

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/14/economy/china-party-congress-economy-trouble-xi-intl-hnk/index.html

Five reasons why China's economy is in trouble

President Xi Jinping faces his greatest challenge yet ahead of a historic Communist Party meeting.

www.bbc.com

Now with Biden's insane Proxy war Russia a Natural resource rich Country and China a Cheap Labor/Slave country are going to Prop each other up.

Something fishy is going on because it made way more sense to negotiate with Russia as opposed to throwing Billions to the Corrupt President Z regime in a unwinnable proxy war.

Best case scenario Russia and China just destroy us economically and we are still alive but poor. Worst case Scenario this ends with thousands or millions dead in a hot World War.....3!

 

[kaskaskiakid]

There was/is no negotiating with Putin. His goal is to rebuild the Russian Empire and he's not going to stop with Crimea and now Ukraine. I have been on the fence from the beginning on the amount of US involvement. Ukraine does have a long history of corruption in the government. And it could become another quagmire that never ends well for the US.

Our involvement is being sold as our obligation if we are to be the beacon of democracy to the world. If China throws support to Putin, it tips the scales to Russia. I am concerned about our allies willingness to escalate support. Is the US and the rest of the free world willing to go to war to defend a democratic country from a much larger invader?

If the US does nothing to support Ukraine, Russia takes the Ukraine back and continues on to the other former Russian states, and rebuilds the Russian Empire. Do we allow that to happen?

 

[Expect2Win]

Calling Zelensky corrupt while ignoring Trump's corruption is laughable.
Exactly what are we supposed to do with Putin?
Do we let him have Ukraine where does he stop? Where is the place to make them stop?
Forget bringing back the USSR, he will take as much of Europe as he wants. Is Germany or Italy going to stop him? France?
China joins forces with Russia we stop exporting to them, and we don't pay them the debt we owe them, they'll change their mind, they can't as much from Russia as they can from us.

 

[MGHS]

There was/is no negotiating with Putin. His goal is to rebuild the Russian Empire and he's not going to stop with Crimea and now Ukraine. I have been on the fence from the beginning on the amount of US involvement. Ukraine does have a long history of corruption in the government. And it could become another quagmire that never ends well for the US.

Our involvement is being sold as our obligation if we are to be the beacon of democracy to the world. If China throws support to Putin, it tips the scales to Russia. I am concerned about our allies willingness to escalate support. Is the US and the rest of the free world willing to go to war to defend a democratic country from a much larger invader?

If the US does nothing to support Ukraine, Russia takes the Ukraine back and continues on to the other former Russian states, and rebuilds the Russian Empire. Do we allow that to happen?

I disagree Russia would of negotiated... that was why the invaded they thought we would give up territory like Crimea before in negotiations. Yes Putin wants the Ukraine back in the empire because of the grain and mineral resources and to stop them from Joining NATO. He really didn't think America would react this way and fight a Proxy war we called his bluff, I rather enjoy that, but not sure it's tactically wise.

I do think Putin would stop after the Ukraine. He knows he can't fight NATO even with China's backing it would end in World War 3. The other Russian States are in NATO now Poland and 6 others so any invasion Triggers World War 3. Putin went after the Ukraine because they are not in NATO.

The best way for Russia to rebuild their empire is to align with China .... taking Ukraine would not at all bolster Russia lackluster economy. But with China and them together Russia has a partner and could easily utilize their vast resources in a productive way.

 

[MGHS]

Calling Zelensky corrupt while ignoring Trump's corruption is laughable.
Exactly what are we supposed to do with Putin?
Do we let him have Ukraine where does he stop? Where is the place to make them stop?
Forget bringing back the USSR, he will take as much of Europe as he wants. Is Germany or Italy going to stop him? France?
China joins forces with Russia we stop exporting to them, and we don't pay them the debt we owe them, they'll change their mind, they can't as much from Russia as they can from us.

Yes Trump is way more corrupt than Zelensky and Biden Combined... feel better now on to the topic.

You do understand the NATO treaty... Most of Europe is in NATO. The Ukraine is really the only Place Russia could invade and not trigger a massive World War. They invade those countries and it's a full on hot war... America has over a 100 military bases World Wide. We have the most sophisticated Military at this time, and with Europeans by are side the whole thing would be ugly for Russia.

Think about it in this way. Russia his fighting the Ukraine and it's not been a cake walk at all. There is no doubt Russia will win this war of attrition in the end probably by this April or May. We have sent Billions and Billions to the Ukraine in a Proxy war to weaken and humiliate Putin. That was the point of the whole thing bleed Russia financially in this war wreck their economy, make it a unfavorable war to the Russian people and if possible topple Putin because of the Ukraine debacle and the outcome long term for Russia it's self.

But We gambled and Lost because we thought that China would remain neutral!! They have not the allied themselves with Putin.... propping up him and the Russian Economy.

America imports way way more from China than we export to them.... China is already making deals for the Plentiful oil from Russia and other natural resources as well, China might be evil but they are not stupid. So that idea of stopping exports is not really viable for us, it will hurt us more than them.

And not paying off the trillions of dollars of debt that we owe China is not a great idea either the ramifications on the world stage would haunt us for decades and decades.

You seem to think China needs us as much as we need them!! That is not true they have been slowly but surely taking Global Control of Economy one nation at a time.

 

[kaskaskiakid]

China is an awakening giant. We could also be helping defend Taiwan soon.

 

[bullitpdq68]

I disagree Russia would of negotiated... that was why the invaded they thought we would give up territory like Crimea before in negotiations. Yes Putin wants the Ukraine back in the empire because of the grain and mineral resources and to stop them from Joining NATO. He really didn't think America would react this way and fight a Proxy war we called his bluff, I rather enjoy that, but not sure it's tactically wise.

I do think Putin would stop after the Ukraine. He knows he can't fight NATO even with China's backing it would end in World War 3. The other Russian States are in NATO now Poland and 6 others so any invasion Triggers World War 3. Putin went after the Ukraine because they are not in NATO.

The best way for Russia to rebuild their empire is to align with China .... taking Ukraine would not at all bolster Russia lackluster economy. But with China and them together Russia has a partner and could easily utilize their vast resources in a productive way.

Neville Chamberlain?? I thought you were dead old chap. Appeasement of ruthless dictators always works out in the end.....And they won't come back wanting more knowing you already gave them all they wanted...or did you?​

 

[HomeyR]

Neville Chamberlain?? I thought you were dead old chap. Appeasement of ruthless dictators always works out in the end.....And they won't come back wanting more knowing you already gave them all they wanted...or did you?​

When has Putin ever truly negotiated ?

 

[MGHS]

Neville Chamberlain?? I thought you were dead old chap. Appeasement of ruthless dictators always works out in the end.....And they won't come back wanting more knowing you already gave them all they wanted...or did you?​

This isn't Hitler and again NATO makes anymore expansion a moot point as it would trigger World War 111.... Putin choose Ukraine for a reason. He'd prefer to invade Poland or some of the other Baltic states but they are in NATO now he can't and he knows it.

We have been allowing Soviet and Communist regime to take over From Cuba to Venezuela.

So I guess you are in favor of sending American Troops?

Let's be truthful this war is lost... Russia is going to overrun the Ukraine unless we send in our forces and our Sons and Daughters die. President Z. knows that, hence his lie that if we don't send them now we will be sending them later when Russia invades some NATO nation. He needs us to buy into that idea so we can win this war for him.

 

[Toots_mcgee]

 

[Toots_mcgee]

 

[MGHS]

You do realize that Putin has threatened limited use of Nukes...... to win. He is not beyond applying that threat. Putin has staked his Power on it and he must win! Russia and Putin have no Red Lines.

This could very well be a stalemate but if that is the case Russia wins and will keep Ukrainian territory. Regroup, Build up over a few years and do it again.

Russia in a Long war has the advantage, even more so with the backing of China. And with record sales of Oil to India as well.... they are replenishing their Coffers all though slowly.

Russian Defense factories are running full bore and the Ukraine is relying on the West to Keep them afloat. The People of Ukraine are Hero's and Resilient and Should be held in high regard. But the West is propping them up with Military and Financial Support.

If reconstruction started today it would exceed a trillion dollars....and guess who pays for that??

We all Want Russia to fail and lose... but wanting something and the reality of the situation is not the same.

 

[kaskaskiakid]

One of the basic tenants of Communism is to expand to form a greater society to produce and share more resources for the good of all. Putin sees all the surrounding independent countries that were under the former USSR umbrella as ex-communicated states with valuable resources, and Putin will never stop trying to reclaim what he sees as rightfully belonging to Russia.

 

[MGHS]

I agree he desires to reclaim all the previous Satellite countries... but I highly doubt he would move to WW3 and invade a NATO country. Putin came to power in 1999.

And a lot of former members of Russia joined and nothing happened but Saber Rattling. Ukraine as I said is really one of the few countries he could invade without a major war happening.

 

[kaskaskiakid]

I agree he desires to reclaim all the previous Satellite countries... but I highly doubt he would move to WW3 and invade a NATO country. Putin came to power in 1999.

And a lot of former members of Russia joined and nothing happened but Saber Rattling. Ukraine as I said is really one of the few countries he could invade without a major war happening.

One step at a time for Putin, he has time on his side. If he would succeed in annexing Ukraine, it would be a tremendous financial boost for Russia to build more weapons.

 

[MGHS]

Putin has already got his Financial boost with his alliance with China..... Russia is going full bore with Weapons as we speak. This is a bigger economic drain on us long term....you can see the effects world wide.

 

[HomeyR]

Putin has already got his Financial boost with his alliance with China..... Russia is going full bore with Weapons as we speak. This is a bigger economic drain on us long term....you can see the effects world wide.

So we do what...fold our tent ?

 

[kaskaskiakid]

Putin has already got his Financial boost with his alliance with China..... Russia is going full bore with Weapons as we speak. This is a bigger economic drain on us long term....you can see the effects world wide.

Bringing Ukraine under Russian control is a bigger boost than China's offer of assistance.

 

[MGHS]

So we do what...fold our tent ?

Start a Negotiation....or Force one.

 

[MGHS]

Bringing Ukraine under Russian control is a bigger boost than China's offer of assistance.

And why do assume that? China and Russia in a Alliance economically is more dangerous than Russia taking Ukraine and getting a defensive position and natural resources.

Russia has tons and tons of Natural resources but lacks the competence to exploit them on the Global Market. China has the need for such resources and has the Industrial machine to put them to proper use.

China has been snapping up Oil and Coal from Russia, China has sent troops to Russian in recent months for maneuvers and had joint naval exercises. These on going Military exercises which included mock seizures of islands are clearly a signal to the West. Two Nuclear Powered Giants flanking Europe and Asia is a game Changer now that they are Allied.

This Alliance is and will shift the balance of power. Why do you think the U.S. Govt has tried hard to pressure China to remain neutral! China has backed Putin stating in Public that HIs Security Concern of NATO expansion was valid and Must be addressed. In response Russia backed China Claim to Taiwan...

The issue is China... Standing up to Putin and making a mess of his plans is a great and wonderful thing as long as it doesn't drag China into the Mix to support Russia and their goals.

The Rand Research Organization estimates a War involving China would slash their GDP 25% and America's GDP 5%. Which on the suffers seems great and a U.S. win. But let's not forget that in 07 and 09 the U.S. GDP fell by just 2.6% ...that eliminated 9 million jobs, and sent stocks down 55%. So double that and you got the consequences with a War with China.

This whole affair has been bungled from the start by the U.S. We should of of tried to negotiate.... which more than likely would of failed. But we would of had the high ground morally and then we should of taken a bold stance and Given Ukraine Air Superiority coupled with the other Military Aid we are giving now. This would of more than likely turned the tide of the War in the Ukraine's favor quickly and stopped the China Alliance as they would of seen the war as a lost cause.

Now we are in a long drawn out proxy war and in a economic war with China and Russia.

 

[kaskaskiakid]

And why do assume that? China and Russia in a Alliance economically is more dangerous than Russia taking Ukraine and getting a defensive position and natural resources.

I don't see a China and Russia alliance as a now and forever alliance. China is posturing to stand up to the US by providing military hardware, just as we are doing. They will match us tit for tat. If we send troops, so will China.

Putin wants the Ukraine breadbasket profits. Bringing Ukraine back under the Russian umbrella brings billions in rubles, and the desperately needed boost to the Russian economy.

 

[MGHS]

China is in desperate need of Natural resources... and if Russia will provide them and it strengthens China economically the alliance could last. That alliance is actually strengthening Russia as well economically and soften the loss of sales to Europe.

I think you are looking at this to much from a western mindset... Putin is less interested in the bread basket and profits as he is in Control and Bolstering his image at home in bringing back the Glory of the Iron Bear. He has suffered humiliation so far and this could drive him to insane measures.

Russia has more Natural Resources than any country on Earth they should easily be a economic powerhouse. But their system is flawed and corrupt. Obtaining the Ukraine and their food production is a secondary gain for Putin.

 

[kaskaskiakid]

Time will tell if Xi is going to jump in bed with Putin.

 

[HomeyR]

Start a Negotiation....or Force one.

I've already stated that Putin doesn't negotiate. If Xi does aid Putin in some way, it will be on his terms not Putin's.