This could change things even more for HS sports

[Pancho and Lefty]

Assume it will close to pass in the Senate. What a deal, rich dude gets a tax credit for a donation to non-profit, non-profit provides scholarships that can include tuition, transportation, and other education related expenses. I have nothing against the rich, nor for people wanting their kids to get the best education possible. Just seems like it can/will be used to bring more athletes to private/parochial schools. I guess time will tell, but if you think their won't be places ready to take advantage, you are naive.

In historic vote, school choice proposal wins final approval in Missouri House

The measure won just enough support to advance to the Missouri Senate.

www.stltoday.com

 

[WaggleQB]

Missouri trying to kill public education one stupid bill at a time.

 

[Pancho and Lefty]

Missouri trying to kill public education one stupid bill at a time.

My thought and I am sure many others have is that a great percentage of charter schools have failed, closed, had fraud of some sort. This bill with the tax credit and involving private schools could really make waves. I am sure there are some coaches with a smile on their face today. Again, I get it that there are areas that the education experience is below par, and don't fault parents for wanting something better for their kids. I think our biggest problems in education mirror our society and politics in a lack of respect, declining work ethic, apathy, breakdown of parental involvement, etc. Meaning a lot of our problems will never be fixed.

 

[r14veer]

My thought and I am sure many others have is that a great percentage of charter schools have failed, closed, had fraud of some sort. This bill with the tax credit and involving private schools could really make waves. I am sure there are some coaches with a smile on their face today. Again, I get it that there are areas that the education experience is below par, and don't fault parents for wanting something better for their kids. I think our biggest problems in education mirror our society and politics in a lack of respect, declining work ethic, apathy, breakdown of parental involvement, etc. Meaning a lot of our problems will never be fixed.

Finland's model is one each state should consider. They go to school for less time, have no standardized testing, among other things, yet they are either at the very top or in the top 5 in the world every year in education since they overhauled their system a few decades ago. https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...gnoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Finland's model is one each state should consider. They go to school for less time, have no standardized testing, among other things, yet they are either at the very top or in the top 5 in the world every year in education since they overhauled their system a few decades ago. https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...gnoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

Finland is a small country with a ton of money. That model works well for them. I'm not terribly convinced there's carryover to other mega nations like the US. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they control their citizenship greatly as well, right? A lot easier in a smaller environment, when you have a lot of money, to implement and control a plan.

 

[Sam Stone]

Finland is a small country with a ton of money. That model works well for them. I'm not terribly convinced there's carryover to other mega nations like the US. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they control their citizenship greatly as well, right? A lot easier in a smaller environment, when you have a lot of money, to implement and control a plan.

The mega nation we live in has plenty of money. We just choose to use it to line the pockets of the military industry, the energy industry, and the ag industry. The untouchables. The entitled. Those on the government tit.

 

[WaggleQB]

Finland is a small country with a ton of money. That model works well for them. I'm not terribly convinced there's carryover to other mega nations like the US. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they control their citizenship greatly as well, right? A lot easier in a smaller environment, when you have a lot of money, to implement and control a plan.

Public Education simply needs to get a fair share of the pot, there is PLENTY of money to be had and shared. Standardized testing is STUPID and needs to go away. Public schools are not allowed to "pick and choose" who they educate and ALL students are required to follow the same requirements. Private and Charter schools do not have this issue (among others they can skirt). This is going to get much worse for Missouri public schools before it gets better. BTW, Sports are the least of my concern regarding this awful situation.

 

[kaskaskiakid]

The problems with our schools are not educational, they are societal. I blame it on the diminished 2 parent household, lack of parenting, and involvement in kid's lives. There is a % of teenagers with no adult supervision in every school, and higher in some areas than others. Look at the attendance records of some of the poorly performing schools. Teachers can't teach students that are absent a couple days a week.

Having said that, we do need to expand on teaching vocational trades for students not on a college path. Not all kids need 4 yrs of math, 4 yrs of English, ...some kids only ambitions are to be manual laborers and we could do better at introducing more practical work skills.

For example, back in the 70s my high school had an advanced shop class that built an entire house every year and sold it. There was a morning class and an afternoon class each working 3 hrs a day. I think the class died off when the teacher retired, but I know they built 5-6 houses in town. It's amazing how many of these guys started their own construction, concrete, plumbing, and electrician businesses, and most worked in a related field all their lives. Our school district is starting to talk about reviving the program.

 

[rebelman54]

"Having said that, we do need to expand on teaching vocational trades for students not on a college path. Not all kids need 4 yrs of math, 4 yrs of English, ...some kids only ambitions are to be manual laborers and we could do better at introducing more practical work skills. "

Amen, from a public school math teacher!

 

[Eagles_Ball]

The mega nation we live in has plenty of money. We just choose to use it to line the pockets of the military industry, the energy industry, and the ag industry. The untouchables. The entitled. Those on the government tit.

Almost any huge organization, public or private, would get hammered in a feasibility study. But yes, I agree, education doesn't see enough funding. Throwing money at a problem won't always solve it though. I think the advantage Finland, Singapore, and S. Korea have over bigger countries is their ability to control the programs while also having the money to fund them at a high level. Pretty sure that's the same theory as state control over education systems.

 

[r14veer]

Finland is a small country with a ton of money. That model works well for them. I'm not terribly convinced there's carryover to other mega nations like the US. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they control their citizenship greatly as well, right? A lot easier in a smaller environment, when you have a lot of money, to implement and control a plan.

That is exactly why I said that each state should look into it, since our federal government has no actual authority in the matter. Missouri should be the prime example. In population, Missouri is at 6.1 million to Finland's 5.6 million, very close. In 2019, Missouri's GDP was about $328.4 billion while Finland's was $269.3. If nothing else, at least we could try it.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

The problems with our schools are not educational, they are societal. I blame it on the diminished 2 parent household, lack of parenting, and involvement in kid's lives. There is a % of teenagers with no adult supervision in every school, and higher in some areas than others. Look at the attendance records of some of the poorly performing schools. Teachers can't teach students that are absent a couple days a week.

We are guilty of this in my house more than I'd like to admit. Two parents working and crazy extra-curricular schedules for myself and two of the kids make it hard. A lot of this probably started with the growth of both parents working. Sometimes I wished we lived simpler, but then again...we like nice things.

Having said that, we do need to expand on teaching vocational trades for students not on a college path. Not all kids need 4 yrs of math, 4 yrs of English, ...some kids only ambitions are to be manual laborers and we could do better at introducing more practical work skills.

There is a real crossroads for this right now. Federal funding and the multipliers have been tied to post-secondary education options for a decade or two now. This causes districts to "push" students down the AP/IB/Dual Credit/ACT route, even though it's not a fit. It bothers the hell out of me. The world needs good ditch diggers too, and that ditch digger doesn't need AP classes.

For example, back in the 70s my high school had an advanced shop class that built an entire house every year and sold it. There was a morning class and an afternoon class each working 3 hrs a day. I think the class died off when the teacher retired, but I know they built 5-6 houses in town. It's amazing how many of these guys started their own construction, concrete, plumbing, and electrician businesses, and most worked in a related field all their lives. Our school district is starting to talk about reviving the program.

The art of a trade has been lost for 20+ years now, but I see it making a bit of a comeback. Especially in larger rural areas that can afford the programs. I think it's a trend that will continue. If nothing else, I hope the pandemic has taught us that it would be better for all involved if we produced more of our own resources. To do that, we have to have skilled laborers...and not out of work college grads with a Life Sciences or History degree.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

That is exactly why I said that each state should look into it, since our federal government has no actual authority in the matter. Missouri should be the prime example. In population, Missouri is at 6.1 million to Finland's 5.6 million, very close. In 2019, Missouri's GDP was about $328.4 billion while Finland's was $269.3. If nothing else, at least we could try it.

Agreed. This is basically what I was trying to say in my reply to Sam. I couldn't agree more.

 

[Missouri Kid]

"Having said that, we do need to expand on teaching vocational trades for students not on a college path. Not all kids need 4 yrs of math, 4 yrs of English, ...some kids only ambitions are to be manual laborers and we could do better at introducing more practical work skills. "

Amen, from a public school math teacher!

I have maintained this position for at least 20 years. Fortunately, we have implemented a very active building and trades program, an automotive and marine tech program, an exemplary FFA program, and a very successful cooperative education program. As a previous poster indicated, a number of these students have proceeded to start their own businesses after a few years in the workforce.

 

[WaggleQB]

The problems with our schools are not educational, they are societal. I blame it on the diminished 2 parent household, lack of parenting, and involvement in kid's lives. There is a % of teenagers with no adult supervision in every school, and higher in some areas than others. Look at the attendance records of some of the poorly performing schools. Teachers can't teach students that are absent a couple days a week.

Having said that, we do need to expand on teaching vocational trades for students not on a college path. Not all kids need 4 yrs of math, 4 yrs of English, ...some kids only ambitions are to be manual laborers and we could do better at introducing more practical work skills.

For example, back in the 70s my high school had an advanced shop class that built an entire house every year and sold it. There was a morning class and an afternoon class each working 3 hrs a day. I think the class died off when the teacher retired, but I know they built 5-6 houses in town. It's amazing how many of these guys started their own construction, concrete, plumbing, and electrician businesses, and most worked in a related field all their lives. Our school district is starting to talk about reviving the program.

And those are fine ambitions.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

I have maintained this position for at least 20 years. Fortunately, we have implemented a very active building and trades program, an automotive and marine tech program, an exemplary FFA program, and a very successful cooperative education program. As a previous poster indicated, a number of these students have proceeded to start their own businesses after a few years in the workforce.

Marine Tech? Now I'm curious. Where is this school?

 

[vandyfan1313]

The mega nation we live in has plenty of money. We just choose to use it to line the pockets of the military industry, the energy industry, and the ag industry. The untouchables. The entitled. Those on the government tit.

Preach.

 

[Missouri Kid]

Marine Tech? Now I'm curious. Where is this school?

Lets just say a lake ozark area school.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Lets just say a lake ozark area school.

You serious? Hell, I was at Camdenton 10 years.

 

[BearsCountry]

Sounds like Eldon to me

 

[panther72]

This bill has nothing to do with helping private/parochial/charter schools. It has to do with for-profit schools.

 

[freezeoption]

Well, then call, email your congressmen. I swear we have to call these idiots every year. They keep trying to give our public tax money to private or for profit schools every year. I didn't work my ass off to send your kid to private school.

 

[VarsitySTLBlues]

Stop making it about sports. So what if great kids and families want to chose a faith based education and opportunities in which prayer and Christian service are valued.

So what if families choose to send their kid who is a good athlete to a private school. The public school system does not own rights to that family or child.

And at the end of the day the family still has to pay taxes for their local high school regardless of where they send their kid.

Stop the b!t@hing about private school education and sports. This long petty debate is getting stale.

 

[freezeoption]

Bitching? If you were to look at my posts I've hardly talked about private schools. Idc if someone wants to go to a private school or a charter for any reason. Now, when you say the state needs to provide vouchers with public money which might be some of my tax money then there is a problem.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Stop making it about sports. So what if great kids and families want to chose a faith based education and opportunities in which prayer and Christian service are valued.

So what if families choose to send their kid who is a good athlete to a private school. The public school system does not own rights to that family or child.

And at the end of the day the family still has to pay taxes for their local high school regardless of where they send their kid.

Stop the b!t@hing about private school education and sports. This long petty debate is getting stale.

I’m not sure anyone in here bitches about it in the way you infer. There is an inherent problem with public monies funding private/faith-based institutions of any kind. I’m all for choice. But the choice you make, if choosing private, should include private monies and not public monies. That shouldn’t be a tough concept to grasp. But hell, then again, Boston schools are doing away with advanced/gifted programs because the students in the program are 70% white and Asian. I’d say we’ve reached a point where all concepts are tough to grasp.

 

[bullitpdq68]

The problems with our schools are not educational, they are societal. I blame it on the diminished 2 parent household, lack of parenting, and involvement in kid's lives. There is a % of teenagers with no adult supervision in every school, and higher in some areas than others. Look at the attendance records of some of the poorly performing schools. Teachers can't teach students that are absent a couple days a week.

Having said that, we do need to expand on teaching vocational trades for students not on a college path. Not all kids need 4 yrs of math, 4 yrs of English, ...some kids only ambitions are to be manual laborers and we could do better at introducing more practical work skills.

For example, back in the 70s my high school had an advanced shop class that built an entire house every year and sold it. There was a morning class and an afternoon class each working 3 hrs a day. I think the class died off when the teacher retired, but I know they built 5-6 houses in town. It's amazing how many of these guys started their own construction, concrete, plumbing, and electrician businesses, and most worked in a related field all their lives. Our school district is starting to talk about reviving the program.

In Monett we actually have something like this it is a complete school called Scott Tech named after the Superintendent who worked to get it started back in the 70's. They offer 3 hour courses in everything from construction tech, automotive food services left a link so you can see.
I thought all towns offered something like this? They even offer some limited night courses. I took a lot of electronics and computer programming in high school and at night. Learned how to fix TV VCR stereo's electronics and program Binary code way back when....before there was computer code taking courses in high school.

Scott Regional Technology Center

Learn a Living

www.monettschools.org

 

[kaskaskiakid]

Yeah, our students take 3 hr blocks at a votech in nearby town. I don't know why it isn't more popular for students.

 

[Sam Stone]

In Monett we actually have something like this it is a complete school called Scott Tech named after the Superintendent who worked to get it started back in the 70's. They offer 3 hour courses in everything from construction tech, automotive food services left a link so you can see.
I thought all towns offered something like this? They even offer some limited night courses. I took a lot of electronics and computer programming in high school and at night. Learned how to fix TV VCR stereo's electronics and program Binary code way back when....before there was computer code taking courses in high school.

Scott Regional Technology Center

Learn a Living

www.monettschools.org

Similar programs are offered at most places.
A lot of this issue depends on how much one views the role of secondary education to A) offer a general education program to expose students to many areas, or B) provide job training. I like tech and trade classes, but I feel that any extensive learning in those areas needs to be post-secondary, just like any college majors. We don't ask college-bound students to declare their majors as juniors in HS, why do we do it with tech/trades? Expose the kid to welding, but they don't have to be a master welder by the time they graduate.

 

[kaskaskiakid]

I agree with what you all are saying. I keep going back to seeing too many kids that are not college material being forced to take 3-4 years of math, social studies, English, and science to meet graduation requirements. One option being discussed at our local school is more of an apprentice work program, beyond auto mechanics and business students working a couple hours a day answering phones at a local business. The idea would be to go to work for 3 hour blocks for HS credit with electricians, plumbers, construction, maintenance, etc, out in the field and getting hands on experience.

I don't think kids understand you can make a dang good living in some of these basic trades. And not enough kids are being directed towards these vocations. But then again, today's entitled generation don't want to do manual labor. Many think they can take a couple years of computer classes at the local community college, and go to work sitting at a desk with a computer.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Yeah, our students take 3 hr blocks at a votech in nearby town. I don't know why it isn't more popular for students.

#NCLB...Where it all started.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Similar programs are offered at most places.
A lot of this issue depends on how much one views the role of secondary education to A) offer a general education program to expose students to many areas, or B) provide job training. I like tech and trade classes, but I feel that any extensive learning in those areas needs to be post-secondary, just like any college majors. We don't ask college-bound students to declare their majors as juniors in HS, why do we do it with tech/trades? Expose the kid to welding, but they don't have to be a master welder by the time they graduate.

I'm not sure I see the difference in advanced trade offerings and Calc 2, Advanced Eng PLTW, or Anatomy and Physiology 2.

 

[sw5890]

The problems with our schools are not educational, they are societal. I blame it on the diminished 2 parent household, lack of parenting, and involvement in kid's lives. There is a % of teenagers with no adult supervision in every school, and higher in some areas than others. Look at the attendance records of some of the poorly performing schools. Teachers can't teach students that are absent a couple days a week.

Having said that, we do need to expand on teaching vocational trades for students not on a college path. Not all kids need 4 yrs of math, 4 yrs of English, ...some kids only ambitions are to be manual laborers and we could do better at introducing more practical work skills.

For example, back in the 70s my high school had an advanced shop class that built an entire house every year and sold it. There was a morning class and an afternoon class each working 3 hrs a day. I think the class died off when the teacher retired, but I know they built 5-6 houses in town. It's amazing how many of these guys started their own construction, concrete, plumbing, and electrician businesses, and most worked in a related field all their lives. Our school district is starting to talk about reviving the program.

I agree 100% that our school problems are mostly a result of dysfunction in society. Not funding, not teachers or administration or even curriculum in many cases.

First, we've got an enormous segment of society that is totally unproductive and irresponsible. They raise their kids to be skilled at being a victim and knowing the tricks to maximize their take of social safety net programs.

Then there are people who try their best but it's an uphill climb. I see this a lot with the large immigrant/undocumented population in here - but it's not just this group. Kids are frequently absent, unstable housing, parents trying to work "under the table". Plus there is often a language barrier. On paper Carthage schools look terrible. These people try but to your point teachers can't teach kids who are only present intermittently.

A totally different issue - we've got some public schools being utilized to push "progressive" ideologies that have nothing to do with basic education - which fuels pushback against the whole concept of public education. The whole keeping public schools closed and teachers unions refusal to return even if vaccinated while private schools have been open in many places during covid has added fuel to that fire as well!

Finally, our culture in general is very anti-intellectual. We celebrate sports, social media icons, pop stars, but not educated decisions and the people who are able to make them. Kids will pour their entire childhood and family finances into youth baseball programs but most families would never dream of putting that much time and resources into educating their kids.

By and large society is concerned more with personal gratification above all else.

 

[Sam Stone]

What a rambling, steaming pile.

 

[daveok]

And it was introduced by a Senator from Shelbina. Cardinal Nation and all CCC schools should rally against her.

 

[mowesten]

I wrote my college dissertation on Finland's prison system, and spent nearly three months traveling the country along with Norway and Sweden many years ago.

The person who led my traveling party used to say you can get a better college education in a Finland prison than most American Universities.

I'm not entirely sure it was a joke lol

It's interesting that it is brought up as a contrast to US education. Finland has a large and robust refugee community with people from all over the world who seek and find refuge there. Helsinki was known for a time to be a place to find refuge from all sorts of terrible places.

I spent some time in Punkalaidun, a really small village of about maybe 4,000 people, and at that time there were refugees and immigrants from Ethiopia, Somalia, Afghanistan, Burma, Syria, Iraq, and elsewhere. There are language and cultural barriers that have to be overcome in a lot of communities and schools like this throughout the country.

This has led, IMO, to some very outside the box thinking that is very unique and it permeates throughout the culture.

There is some disparity in wealth and resources in Finland between the rural communities and the cities. It's that way in a lot of the smaller countries that I visited in that part of the world, actually. And while the reluctance to implement testing and rankings is what draws a lot of attention from the US, what stood out to me about Finland is they way their schools are organized. They have the exact same school with staff who all have the exact same training no matter where you are in the country. It's hard to explain. There is consistency throughout the country.

IMO, the thing that makes Finland schools unique is they don't focus on what students learn, but how they learn.

As for it being a controlling or somewhat less free society as one posted opined here — man I don't know where the actual hell that would come from. I sure didn't see it that way and I've literally never met anyone who traveled or lived there who felt the same.

I've visited, I would say, close to 50 countries, including military service, mostly in the Caribbean, South America, Asia and the Middle East and I'm not sure there is a more free country than Finland.

My experience is that it is the total and complete opposite of that in every way I can imagine. The only compliant I ever heard from anyone about Finland is it's too cold. And i mean entirely too cold.

 

[r14veer]

I wrote my college dissertation on Finland's prison system, and spent nearly three months traveling the country along with Norway and Sweden many years ago.

The person who led my traveling party used to say you can get a better college education in a Finland prison than most American Universities.

I'm not entirely sure it was a joke lol

It's interesting that it is brought up as a contrast to US education. Finland has a large and robust refugee community with people from all over the world who seek and find refuge there. Helsinki was known for a time to be a place to find refuge from all sorts of terrible places.

I spent some time in Punkalaidun, a really small village of about maybe 4,000 people, and at that time there were refugees and immigrants from Ethiopia, Somalia, Afghanistan, Burma, Syria, Iraq, and elsewhere. There are language and cultural barriers that have to be overcome in a lot of communities and schools like this throughout the country.

This has led, IMO, to some very outside the box thinking that is very unique and it permeates throughout the culture.

There is some disparity in wealth and resources in Finland between the rural communities and the cities. It's that way in a lot of the smaller countries that I visited in that part of the world, actually. And while the reluctance to implement testing and rankings is what draws a lot of attention from the US, what stood out to me about Finland is they way their schools are organized. They have the exact same school with staff who all have the exact same training no matter where you are in the country. It's hard to explain. There is consistency throughout the country.

IMO, the thing that makes Finland schools unique is they don't focus on what students learn, but how they learn.

As for it being a controlling or somewhat less free society as one posted opined here — man I don't know where the actual hell that would come from. I sure didn't see it that way and I've literally never met anyone who traveled or lived there who felt the same.

I've visited, I would say, close to 50 countries, including military service, mostly in the Caribbean, South America, Asia and the Middle East and I'm not sure there is a more free country than Finland.

My experience is that it is the total and complete opposite of that in every way I can imagine. The only compliant I ever heard from anyone about Finland is it's too cold. And i mean entirely too cold.

People have made up their minds about what America is and isn't able to do with regard to schools, prisons, and anything government related. If all schools are equal, it's socialism rather than fairness, and we don't do socialism (except that we actually do). If prison isn't a complete hellhole, it's too soft (and probably socialist) rather than humane. In fact, another Scandinavian country, Norway, treats even their worst prisoners like human beings and gets rewarded with around a 20% recidivism rate within 5 years, while ours is around 70% within 5 years.