Something Never Seen Before!

[FB junkie]

I was at the Helias vs. Father Tolton game last night. What a game! Right at 4000 in attendance for the Great 8 Tournament Finals in Jefferson City. They had to turn away an estimated 500 that could not get in. Father Tolton won it on a last second shot by Michael Porter 57-54. It was the final shot for the game well beyond the 3 point line. He was guarded very well, but faded away and hit the clutch shoot.

However, I witnessed something that really puzzled me and others at the game. There was one referee who noticeable did not call many fouls, but also seemed very favorable to one of the teams. There was a dunk in the game by Michael Porter who noticeable taunted another Helias player that was captured on the News in front of the referee in question. Nothing called! Michael later got in foul trouble in 3rd quarter and sat for a few minutes, but played later in 3rd and 4th quarters with foul trouble. There were a number of times he could have fouled out, but did not. In fact, Helias had to sit 2 of our their bigs for much of the 4th quarter with foul problems. However, neither of the Porter's who had 4 fouls had to leave the game, nor did they get their 5th foul.

At the end of the game, the referee in questions goes over and hugs Michael at the end of the game. Come to find out, this referee is friends of the Porter family and in particular Michael. Got this information from pretty reliable source. Give me a break! It was so noticeable in the game this person was favoring Tolton. Granted, the other 2 referees did their job and not saying Helias lost because of it, but the outcome might have been completely different.

There was also a big point in the game where a technical foul was called against Helias for fouling Michael hard on a dunk attempt. The local paper today questioned that call as well. They called it a foul which it was. However, this same referee in question seem to come over to the other who called the initial foul and tell him it was intentional. Technical Foul thus a 5 point swing in the game.

When you have big time game like this with a lot of intensity, why can't you bring in referees that don't have local ties or the best. This crew was somewhat suspect. Just my opinion backed up with some facts. Round 2 of this game is in February and lets hope this same referee is not on the court.

 

[hailtoothevictors]

Happens more than you think. Unprofessional. Its bad enough they have an agenda, but then they are brazen enough to not try and hide it at the end of the game.

Seen it happen in Park Hills Xmas tournament this week involving a early round game where the refs favored a team in calls (and no calls), and then 1 ref hugged it out with a West County player and the other could not wait to get his but over to shake hands with the West County coach.

In the MAAA conference - especially with the lead belt schools its called Home Cooking.

 

[FB junkie]

Yes, very disappointed as it seems people want to jump on the band wagon and provide a different standard for Micheal. No doubt he is the best high school player in Missouri. However, he puts his shorts on the same way as all of us.

 

[rocketsbro]

Except when he puts his shorts on, he makes gold records!

 

[KCHI]

I was at the Helias vs. Father Tolton game last night. What a game! Right at 4000 in attendance for the Great 8 Tournament Finals in Jefferson City. They had to turn away an estimated 500 that could not get in. Father Tolton won it on a last second shot by Michael Porter 57-54. It was the final shot for the game well beyond the 3 point line. He was guarded very well, but faded away and hit the clutch shoot.

However, I witnessed something that really puzzled me and others at the game. There was one referee who noticeable did not call many fouls, but also seemed very favorable to one of the teams. There was a dunk in the game by Michael Porter who noticeable taunted another Helias player that was captured on the News in front of the referee in question. Nothing called! Michael later got in foul trouble in 3rd quarter and sat for a few minutes, but played later in 3rd and 4th quarters with foul trouble. There were a number of times he could have fouled out, but did not. In fact, Helias had to sit 2 of our their bigs for much of the 4th quarter with foul problems. However, neither of the Porter's who had 4 fouls had to leave the game, nor did they get their 5th foul.

At the end of the game, the referee in questions goes over and hugs Michael at the end of the game. Come to find out, this referee is friends of the Porter family and in particular Michael. Got this information from pretty reliable source. Give me a break! It was so noticeable in the game this person was favoring Tolton. Granted, the other 2 referees did their job and not saying Helias lost because of it, but the outcome might have been completely different.

There was also a big point in the game where a technical foul was called against Helias for fouling Michael hard on a dunk attempt. The local paper today questioned that call as well. They called it a foul which it was. However, this same referee in question seem to come over to the other who called the initial foul and tell him it was intentional. Technical Foul thus a 5 point swing in the game.

When you have big time game like this with a lot of intensity, why can't you bring in referees that don't have local ties or the best. This crew was somewhat suspect. Just my opinion backed up with some facts. Round 2 of this game is in February and lets hope this same referee is not on the court.

I've been broadcasting basketball for more than 25 years and anyone who has ever listened to one of my games knows all too well how much I complain about officials. However, I need a little more information about all of the above post.
1) Are you a Helias fan? If so, most all of the above comes across as an angry rant pointing fingers as to why your team lost. My team lost tonight, but it had nothing to do with officials and everything to do with not scoring enough points.
2) " There was a dunk in the game by Michael Porter who noticeable taunted another Helias player that was captured on the News in front of the referee in question." Describe the taunt. Shouting? Chest bumping? Fist waving?
3) Porter was in foul trouble, sat out for a little while. Helias had 2 players in foul trouble, sat out much of the 4th quarter. - How is this relevant? The officials have absolutely nothing to do with how long a player sits with his 4th foul. It's a coach's decision. Players do not have to "leave the game" with 4 fouls, unless their coach subs in someone.
4) Official was friends with the Porter family. Well I've seen officials in games that were actually FROM one of the towns playing. Never heard of anyone bitching about it. I'm not sure if officials are interrogated as to whom they know, before they are assigned to a game
5) So the Jeff City paper questioned a technical foul against a Helias player. Nothing new there. Media usually supports their home town team. I know I do. Officials have conversations all the time. I did a game tonight that has several officials conferences.
6) Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe officials are assigned games well in advance, including tournaments. Not at the last minute to meet some supposed "agenda"
Sounds like it was a good game, and the rematch hopefully will be just as good.

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

Maybe you should get your referee license? The Porter kid is not one that will taunt. Most humble kid I have seen with that much talent. Emotions ran wild I am sure on both teams that night. I did here from Helias fans that Helias played very physically with Tolton. Teams must play like that against them to compete with them. I can not say if it was dirty or not, I was not there. When teams play so physically though, it looks to be borderline cheap fouls. I say congrats to both teams. The re match will be interesting for sure. I have heard that they moved the game to Columbia College. They will turn people away there as well. They need to just move it to the Mizzou Arena... Will be the most tickets sold there for the year!

 

[Royals2015]

No official from that game has any ties to Porter or his family. No official was hugging Porter after the game either. I'm not sure where that information came from. The Helias player was given an intention foul because the foul was excessive and took Porter to the ground on a break away layup. Tony Hawley, who wrote the article, has no clue in regards to officiating and what should be called an intentional foul. If a player gets taken to the floor on a break away layup, there's no doubt that the foul was intentional. Please get your facts straight if you're going to make a post in regards to officiating and relationships.

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

No official from that game has any ties to Porter or his family. No official was hugging Porter after the game either. I'm not sure where that information came from. The Helias player was given an intention foul because the foul was excessive and took Porter to the ground on a break away layup. Tony Hawley, who wrote the article, has no clue in regards to officiating and what should be called an intentional foul. If a player gets taken to the floor on a break away layup, there's no doubt that the foul was intentional. Please get your facts straight if you're going to make a post in regards to officiating and relationships.

I agree. The parents I talked with from Jeff also said it was the right call.

 

[mowesten]

The Jefferson City newspaper reported that the Helias game against Quincy, Ill. Notre Dame featured 50 fouls and an in-game shouting match between the two head coaches.

It sounds like Helias and fouls are a rather common occurrence. Not sure why anyone would be surprised several of their players would be in foul trouble in a game against Tolton.

 

[mlbruem]

The intentional foul was the really bad call. Outside of that way to many things called both ways that should have been no calls.

Great game by both Teams - Helias fan who has no problem with Porter showing some emotion. It
was a super big time play by a great player.

 

[3Rfan]

No official from that game has any ties to Porter or his family. No official was hugging Porter after the game either. I'm not sure where that information came from. The Helias player was given an intention foul because the foul was excessive and took Porter to the ground on a break away layup. Tony Hawley, who wrote the article, has no clue in regards to officiating and what should be called an intentional foul. If a player gets taken to the floor on a break away layup, there's no doubt that the foul was intentional. Please get your facts straight if you're going to make a post in regards to officiating and relationships.

A player getting taken to the floor when there is a foul on a breakaway layup does not mean it's an intentional foul. Even if the defender goes for the ball they can get tangled up and go down. I obviously didn't see the play but the intentional foul is called when you just push a guy rather try to block the ball. An intentional foul and a technical are not the same thing.

 

[Royals2015]

You can go for the ball and get tangled up and it still can be called an intentional foul. The intentional foul is called if the foul is excessive, which in this case, it was. Please contact MSHSAA and obtain a copy of the rulebook before posting what you think is an intentional foul and what you think is a common foul.

 

[3Rfan]

You can go for the ball and get tangled up and it still can be called an intentional foul. The intentional foul is called if the foul is excessive, which in this case, it was. Please contact MSHSAA and obtain a copy of the rulebook before posting what you think is an intentional foul and what you think is a common foul.

If it's excessive it can be a technical or flagrant foul and ejection. An intentional foul can be called 40 feet from the basket without any hard contact at all. It just has to be grabbing somebody without going for the ball to stop the clock. That was the intent of the intentional foul when it was put in the rules to make the penalty bad enough that people wouldn't grab a kid just to stop the clock. Most only want to call it now if you try to hurt someone.

 

[FB junkie]

This has created some good conversation, but wanted to clarify a few things from the original post.

1. The post was more about seeing some things in the game that seemed unusually or strange.
2. The taunting thing did happen and it was captured on the news (KRCG-TV) website.
3. The Porter family and in particular Michael are very good people from my experience and ever thing I have heard. I never said they were bad kids or family. However, things did get very heated in the game and the Superman flex in front of a Helias player could have started something and why the taunting rule is in place.
4. The whole fouling conversation is common throughout college and high school basketball. More fouls are being called throughout the country and I agree with it. AAU basketball has gotten out of hand in the rough playing style and it had to be cleaned up.
5. I said in the post, the other 2 referees did a good job. It was one in particular that seemed off his game. That happens and we are all human.
6. The hug did happen and was seen by other people.
7. The foul called as I stated was a hard foul, but the Helias player was going for the ball and not to intentionally in my opinion. However, it is judgment call by the referee and they are on the floor and not me. However, as stated, the one referee came in and changed the call it seemed. I might be wrong, as I was not in the conversation and only there to watch the game.
8) It was a very good game and Tolton is very good team. I do not want to take anything away from them.
9) It is hard for aggressive player like Michael to play with 4 fouls for most of the 3rd quarter and all 4th quarter, but he is special player. That was my comment as well.

Hope this clears up a few things. Can't wait for the next game if I am able to get in to see it with small venue.

 

[Royals2015]

Just to clarify as well, no official hugged any player from any team. I would know because I was on the floor.

 

[SHML]

So if you were on the floor, did you see the taunting thing that was on KRCG directed to the Helias player? You saw everything else?

 

[Royals2015]

I didn't see him directly taunt another player.

 

[conservative]

just watched the KRCG video. Anywhere I have been......in a high school contest when a player flex his biceps after a dunk........that would be taunting. Now for the question....will the ref do his job?

 

[Royals2015]

After watching the video on KRCG, there's no doubt that he deserved a technical foul for taunting.

 

[341A]

One must remember that the officials most likely did not have the same angle as the camera.

I was sitting in the stage and thought the breakaway foul was intentional due to excessive contact.

 

[conservative]

one must remember........ try this angle......
a turn around by a player and then do a bicep flex at that player = taunting.

 

[341A]

I agree however if the official can not tell if he is staring at the player the bicep flex by itself could be nothing.

one must remember........ try this angle......
a turn around by a player and then do a bicep flex at that player = taunting.

 

[conservative]

Oh yes, the flexing of both biceps at an opponent............could be just a normal basketball play, move, or????.....wait for it........ taunting!

Also just for reference sake name for me any basketball game you have watched(from your angle) that a player turns to another player after dunking and flex both arms. Be sure and have a 'good' angle!

 

[341A]

You seem to be too emotionally invested to hear what I am staying. I completely agree that what you describe would be a technical foul. I also have seen the video and as was stated previously by another poster and I agree with them that is should have been a technical foul. What I am saying that if the official was not in a position to see the fact that the flex was directed at an opponent then it is possible that the flex in itself could be ruled to not be taunting.

Similar to when a call goes in one teams favor and they clap it could be nothing. However direct that clapping at an opponent and it is most likely a technical foul for taunting.

Oh yes, the flexing of both biceps at an opponent............could be just a normal basketball play, move, or????.....wait for it........ taunting!

Also just for reference sake name for me any basketball game you have watched(from your angle) that a player turns to another player after dunking and flex both arms. Be sure and have a 'good' angle!

 

[conservative]

I am waiting for you to tell me of a game, any game, where a player scores, then flexes both biceps and it not be called a technical. Or is just unique for this contest?

 

[341A]

Do you want a technical for when he hits his own chest and screams after hitting the game winning shot even though he doesn't direct it at another player?

I am waiting for you to tell me of a game, any game, where a player scores, then flexes both biceps and it not be called a technical. Or is just unique for this contest?

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

I am waiting for you to tell me of a game, any game, where a player scores, then flexes both biceps and it not be called a technical. Or is just unique for this contest?

You see it a lot in high profile games where officials let more than normal stuff go because they want the focus on the game and not them as officials. The whole game was a heated, emotional battle between two good teams. Again, officiating is a more difficult job than coaching. They will make bad calls every single call or no call.

 

[conservative]

341A....waiting?

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

341A....waiting?

I answered for him. You see it all the time. Great Players get the benefit of the refs as well.

 

[341A]

You've really never seen a game where a player motioned to the crowd after making a good play?

341A....waiting?

I now am waiting for you.

Do you want a technical for when he hits his own chest and screams after hitting the game winning shot even though he doesn't direct it at another player?

 

[341A]

 

[341A]

arms not up but still flexes

 

[conservative]

stay on point 314A...... turned to another player and taunted..... Not to the crowd.

And, oh, by the way your minion is answering fro you now. Please forward ALL your responses to him.

 

[341A]

guess it wasn't just this game

 

[341A]

You said earlier dunks and flexes. Now you said and turned to player and taunted. You are changing the parameters. We have all agreed that when taunting another player is should be a T. My point was a flex in not necessarily a taunt.

stay on point 314A...... turned to another player and taunted..... Not to the crowd.

And, oh, by the way your minion is answering fro you now. Please forward ALL your responses to him.

 

[Royals2015]

I think "conservative" should become an official. Maybe he/she would then realize you see more when you're sitting in the stands or watching a replay on tv.

 

[hangmanbobbyjaggers]

I think "conservative" should become an official. Maybe he/she would then realize you see more when you're sitting in the stands or watching a replay on tv.

Probably too out of shape to do that so says the minion....

 

[All_Options]

The game was emotional. Michael Porter is a great kid and he is very humble. The intentional foul call was IMO a good call. I did not like it as a Helias fan but for the game I thought it was good. Physical play is good and that play set a boundary that it was not going to get out of hand. Good call.

Those players on Tolton and Helias play all summer. The kids know each other because they play against and with each other. None of the players want to hurt someone, but they do play hard and aggressive.

 

[SHML]

In my opinion, the taunting could have caused the hard foul later on! Basically, the Helias player was not going to let him dunk again and show off again. If you look, the same person he was taunting was the same player that got the hard foul later in the game. And don't tell me the officials did not see it.

 

[Royals2015]

I'm glad everyone is entitled to their own opinion.